Would you breed to a stallion?

[rabbitsfizz]

I actually think I am the only person claiming to know she has a dwarf free line. Were there a test, of any sort, I would jump at using it to back up what I know to be a reasonable claim. Thus, once a test is evolved, the way to introduce it would not be to make it compulsory but to do it as they did with PQing- make it a mark of good quality that you have proudly tested your stock, dwarf gene free- big gold sticker on registration papers.

It does make you wonder why no-one is willing to put into this REAL problem any real money, when there seems to be endless funds for things that as far as I can see are totally useless at worst and unnecessary at best, such as embryo transplants and AI- neither of which has any real credibility in our world yet.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Ok so change it around.. what would you do if it was a mare??? and how many dwarves would a mare need to produce before you decided she should not be bred anymore?

talking bred to differnt stallions

1,2 what would it take for you to take a horse out of your program not being accusatory since no one can hear my tone in writing it is a honest question

that I am curious about...

 

[Buckskin gal]

It would only take one for me and I should have made that clear in my other post. Mary

Ok so change it around.. what would you do if it was a mare??? and how many dwarves would a mare need to produce  before you decided she should not be bred anymore?talking bred to differnt stallions

1,2 what would it take for you to take a horse out of your program not being accusatory since no one can hear my tone in writing it is a honest question

that I am curious about...

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[hhpminis]

As rabbit said, I do believe she is the only one who claimed to have a dwarf free breeding program.

Many of us are stating that we would not continue to breed to a horse that has produced a dwarf. The statement that many of us could have a dwarf gene(s) in our herd is absolutely correct. But...until a horse produces a dwarf it is not known that you have it. Are we all playing a bit of Russion roulette? Quite possibly we are.

All we can do until funding is given for in depth research to identify the gene so we could test is to be aware of possible traits and to not be barn blind when breeding our animals. And especially if we do, heaven bless the tiny foal, produce a dwarf, have the wisdom to consider the consequences on a larger scale than our pocket book and reputation to

1) openly admit it

2) be honest with buyers

3) care for the resulting dwarf

4) recognize that both parents probably carry the gene. (I say probably because this is not a 100% for sure statment but a probable assumption on what facts we do have)

5) either pull the stock from the gene pool (my choice) or be extremely careful with ever using them again.

 

[RHAMinis]

1) openly admit it2) be honest with buyers

3) care for the resulting dwarf

4) recognize that both parents probably carry the gene. (I say probably because this is not a 100% for sure statment but a probable assumption on what facts we do have)

5) either pull the stock from the gene pool (my choice) or be extremely careful with ever using them again

There you go .... a great checklist of definites.

If I had a horse, stallion or mare, that was not a full dwarf, but kept producing them, I'd have to consider pulling myself from the breeding aspect of minis more importantly than pulling those horses. I'd obviously be breeding without enough knowledge to do so responsibly. Even though the mare and stallion may be carrying the genetics for it, it's certainly the breeders responsibility to avoid breeding dwarfs. I understand it happens unexpectedly some time, but it doesn't seem like there is any reasonable excuse for repeatedly producing dwarves.

 

[zacharyfarms]

I actually think I am the only person claiming to know she has a dwarf free line.  Were there a test, of any sort, I would jump at using it to back up what I know to be a reasonable claim.  Thus, once a test is evolved, the way to introduce it would not be to make it compulsory but to do it as they did with PQing- make it a mark of good quality that you have proudly tested your stock, dwarf gene free- big gold sticker on registration papers.It does make you wonder why no-one is willing to put into this REAL problem any real money, when there seems to be endless funds for things that as far as I can see are totally useless at worst and unnecessary at best, such as embryo transplants and AI- neither of which has any real credibility in our world yet.

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You probably are the only person claiming to know you have a dwarf free line, Jane but without a test unless each of my horses has had a minimum of 10 offspring (which is considered minimum for progeny testing and even that is then not an exact science without a genetic test available) I personally wouldn't make that statement.( also in East Tennessee we "just wouldn't chance saying it...the saying goes don't name it or it will surely happen.) Have I had a dwarf born on my farm to date...No...do I have a recessive dwarf free line.....hopefully but probably doubtful.. because I have lines that go far back. But that does not mean any of my horses were born with that gene and I certainly wouldn't have purchased any with a visible or knowingly that they had a dwarf background...If there was a test to determine if there was a dwarf gene in any of my horses would I have it done......absolutely ......on every horse.. All of my horses have been tested for LWO. So my point here is that just because everyone is not jumping on the " I have a dwarf free herd" bandwagon doesn't mean that everyone is producing dwarves...it might be like me and that they it is just better not to make a statement that cannot be proven and even Jane cannot PROVE that her horses do not carry the dwarf gene although she has never seen it in her 25 years and she certainly should be proud of that fact alone.

 

[shminifancier]

JUDY

 

[kaykay]

the problem with saying you have a dwarf free line is unless you kept every single horse you ever bred and then saw what they threw and on and on well how can you even know?? If you sold horses and then lost contact youll never know that one of yours threw a dwarf. Rabbit i dont know how many you bred and sold in those 25 years but even if it was 5 per year thats a lot of horses to keep track of thru out their lives to know that they never went on to produce a dwarf. And of course if you dont breed many horses your chances lesson of producing a dwarf. Thats just the law of averages. Now im not saying any of your horses produced a dwarf

just pointing out that it would be hard to prove unless you kept every horse you produced.

Another problem is minimal expression dwarfs. there are some that own them that you will NEVER convince them their horse is showing dwarf traits. And i have heard them also exclaim that they never produced a dwarf.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The main point here is that I have actually not purchased any mares. I have only just now purchased a stallion with US blood in him, that is the first I have bought- no, I tell a lie, I bought an Appy colt five years ago, but he was Dutch bred and traceable. The UK is a small place, if I had bred a Dwarf, I would know as fifteen people would have been only too glad to point it out before lunchtime. No, I ave not kept every horse I have bred but I am now into my fifth generation of my own bloodlines. Not one Dwarf or an animal with Dwarf characteristics has turned up yet. I am not just lucky. I am careful. I have always been. It was an obvious criteria to me when first I started on this breeding programme, self explanatory, that, had a Dwarf turned up neither the stallion nor the mare would have been bred from again. This is so long ago now I can hardly remember- I do know I never even made a conscious decision about it- it was too obvious!

Now, if you truly believe almost every horse in the US has the possibility of having or carrying the Dwarf genetic, we need to find a test, so we know exactly where we stand, and then we need to take action.

We faced this problem with Dobes and vWD (Haemophilia)- almost every line in the world was "infected" by the time the test was found but, with careful testing and even more careful breeding it is becoming less and less common- it is really only irresponsible "for money" breeders that get Dobes with vWD nowadays, all responsible breeders test.

So...obvious really, if the problem is that bad, we need to find a test for Dwarfism.

I am more than happy to have any and all of my animals , and any I have ever bred, tested.

 

[Firefall]

Just a question, many have said if they got a dwarf they wouldn't breed those same two minis together again which I agree with, and may never breed either one again. But if you only did breed that pair once and got the dwarf how do you know who is the carrier? Assuming that its carried by one parent.

Would you breed the same 2 again BUT to a different mini?

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Well i can say i have a dwarf free line as well.. i am sure many breeders can say that I have not produced a dwarf with any of my own breedings.

I did have sadie however I bought the mare bred she wasnt my own breeding so I can say my own breeding for 10 years has not produced a dwarf.. in fact I know many many farms that can say that and some that cant.. still doesnt show there isnt a carrier..

I certainly dont think it is only a US issue.. but that is JMO however... I do think it is an issue that will continue to get worse as long as we justify our actions by saying it takes 2 parents so lets just not breed them to eachother again. I am not saying not breeding them is the answer but I am saying this breed needs to stand up and say please lets put research money where it belongs not donor mares and AI which are great but lets take care of this issue first.

again JMO

 

[littlearab]

I have been reading this thread for days now.

And have not replyed because for the most part I've nothing to add to it. All the info I have read and heard has been posted already.

The ? of would I bred a stallion that has sired a dwarf is very close to home for me.

I had a dwarf born last spring. It was something I was pretty much unperpared for. It is something that happens to "other breeders" I have only been breeding minis for 4 years. I know others who have been breeding for many many years and they have never had a dwarf Or like my vet says, say they have not, they just say the mare lost the foal and put it down.

I had purchused the mare bred, she was only 2 coming 3. She foaled 5 weeks early. And at frist the vet said he was thinking it was just a premie not a dwarf. But as time passed I could easly see that Hobbit was a dwarf.

I did sell the mare told everyone who looked at the the truth as to why I was selling her and said she was not for breeding. So she was sold to hopfully a pet home, but one never knows when they sell a horse where it will end up.

When I knew that Hobbit was a dwarf I really looked for sighs in both parents and saw one or two, in the mare. Little things poor bite(that was not there when I got her, that was now very crooked) and a large head. She has very pretty head, but it is large for her. So I took the advice of my vet and other breeders and kept the stallion.Who has no sighs. He is very nice and has won many halter classes. He shows no sighs of dwarfism. He is very correct in every way.

So I would have to YES to the ? of "Would you bred a stallion that produced a dwarf?"

My vet told me that until they can say for sure that it takes two to produce a dwarf he would keep Ace and use him.He said it's from the mare.

Now that being said, If there is ever another dwarf foal born from this stallion he will be gelded with in days.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think the one thing everyone that has answered this thread- and it is a very controversial issue- has in common is that, without exception, everyone would do what they truly believe to be right for the horse, and for the breed.

I do not think, without a genetic test, we could honestly ask for any more.

 

[zacharyfarms]

Jane, I truly hope that by now the horses in the US have been culled enough (as bad as I hate that word)that there are just not as many horses that are still carriers that we aren't aware of... Now how many that we are aware of that are being used willy nilly is another story. Once there is a test that can be done with DNA then the registries can require it and it can be put on registration certificates..I feel LWO should already be included. However everyone is eager to share when there horse is a LWO gene carrrier because then everyone knows that the horse is one (regardless of how minimal) and can produce the coveted frame overo. One interesting thing to do is look at what actually happens with breeding a dwarf >>When you breed the stallion dwarf who is hypothetically dd (homozygous for the recessive dwarf gene if there really is only one gene involved) and he breeds to a Dd or a DD mare.. and their ultimate foal receives only the d copy from the dwarf (which it will because the dwarf is homozygous for that gene)but not one from the DD or Dd mare then the foal is Dd and that foal breeds to another DD or Dd mare and this foal receives the D copy from the sire and the D copy from the mare...no more dwarfism.... even though the grandfather is a dwarf. However on the other hand, every foal from that grandfather dwarf is a carrier... it is only in the grandchildren that you can rid the line of dwarfism. The problem lies in that with the Dd mare there is a 50% chance of a carrier grandchild being produced and 25% of a dwarf grandchild and only 25% that a non carrier grandchild is produced. With the non carrier mare...the DD mare..there is a 50% chance of the carrier grandchild and a 50% chance of a carrier but no chance of a dwarf. By looking at this though you can see where there may not be as many carriers today as one might think...which is possibly wishful thinking but hopefully not so.

 

[hhpminis]

Yes Judy, you are absolutely right. That was written very nicely.

The farther we get away from that old stock that had obvious dwarf charactersitics the cleaner our breeding stock of today is. With honest and forthright breeders this will just continue to get better.

 

[Sue_C.]

there are other horse breeds that have diseases that are tested for and those horses that test as carriers still can be registered and bred, one example is HYPP in quarter horses

Yes, that is true, but the operative word here is "tested". For dwarfism, as we know...there is no known test...yet. Added to that, any horses which are HYPP, P/P, are not allowed to be bred.

littlearab, you say you bought the mare already bred...so that wouldn't have anything to do with your stallion, unless you also bought the one she'd been bred to. So he is the same animal?

 

[Little Bit]

[SIZE=12pt]Here is a discussion about dwarfism in the Miniature Horse that a friend of mine had comissioned, you might be interested in reading this as well, I can not remember the name of the lady who wrote this discussion however.

[/SIZE]

http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QF-zQ5DqtAbAA...%5B1%5D.doc.rtf

[SIZE=11pt]Editing to add this:[/SIZE]

Sandii Turner at Quarter Moon Farm commissioned the above study, done by Anne Campbell, to further educate clients/buyers and too, to help fellow breeders better understand that not ALL minis carry dwarfism and they shouldn't get locked into that mode of thinking as an "excuse" to keep producing them..we CAN drastically reduce and someday eliminate dwarfism in miniature horses..it just takes character, culling and critical thinking and sometimes an economic loss.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

So is it the Holiday Season - this has to be the calmest discussion about dwarfism I've ever seen! It really is nice to see dwarfism being discussed in a frank and open manner without the accusations and mud slinging of the past!

As for the original question, would I knowingly breed a stallion that had produced dwarves? In the plural no, a single dwarf possibly, but again I would have to very carefully consider the breeding in question, parentage on both sides, conformation traits (did/do either parents exhibit any indication of dwarfism), etc.

In the six years we've been breeding minis, we have not had a dwarf from our breeding born. We did have one abort (story below), but have had a few dwarves come to live here with their dams. The dwarves were placed in pet homes, and the mares were sold as non breeding pets.

We did have one year a series of bad births - a dwarf born, a mare died during delivery, a dead foal, and a deformed (severe tendon issues) foal. The common link was the stallion - the only live foal is the dwarf. I didn't own him, and the breeder wouldn't agree there was a 'stallion' problem. He is/was gorgeous and would have been highly competitive as a gelding, but not my horse!

Would I breed to him - not with a ten foot pole! I'm cautious on the whole line of his as I know there are dwarfs back in his bloodline (4-5 generation back or further). I have heard he has been sold as a breeding stallion to someone else - I don't know if he's produced anything or not.

The dwarf that was aborted here at 9 1/2 months was from a stallion (he's sired 17 foals all are fine - I don't own the stallion) and the mare (she's produced 8 foals all fine). The previous year a full sibling was perfect too. The aborted foal had a severe underbite and a really domed/bulby forehead, but otherwise looked conformationally correct considering the age - length of leg, etc.

So does that mean they 'carry' dwarfism genes and should both be removed from all future breeding? Well the stallion I don't own, but the mare was 18 when she had aborted and I have daughters, grand-daughters, and a great grand-daughter (all different daughters/son lines from her) and none have produced dwarves that I'm aware of.

I have not removed this mare from breeding program as there isn't any indication in her pedigree, foaling history or her get's foaling history to indicate she carries a dwarf gene. She may - back to the we don't have a test - but I would assume it was some other cause for the deformities in the foal she aborted. Although this is her last year, she's being retired from breeding on account of her age.

In general, most of my mare herd is vertical in nature (2-4 generations deep so far!), and I try to be very selective on the stallions that come here. I also try to stay in contact with owner/breeders of the same lines too.

Oh and as for dwarfism reducing size - one of our first minis - our gelding, Woody, is a B size mini. His sire produced two dwarves that I know of, and he's still being used for breeding too (as far as I know. One was a minimal, the other obviously a dwarf! We didn't know it at the time, but Woody was slated to be gelded when he was purchased, so it wouldn't have mattered.

In conclusion to my novel, I do believe there is much to learn about dwarfism in minis, and studying other equine breeds as well as other species is helpful. So is the continued study of environmental effects (improper vaccinations, toxins, feed issues, stress, age, etc.).

I've also found most of the readers here on the forum aren't the problem, as in general everyone seems to be conscientious and trying to further their education at all times. It's getting the word out to newbies and others eager to learn that is really important.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Here is a checklist that I received at the Portland AMHA Show that is used by some of the directors in determining if a horse is a dwarf (hardships, etc.) Sorry for the formatting - it's a MSWord document.

Some Common Phenotypical Characteristics of Dwarfism in Miniature Horses

A Checklist for Miniature Horse Breeders

Check One

None Moderate Severe 1. Legs do not gow in length (normal bone growth does not occur

and/or occurs unvevely at the epiphyses). Foal may appear “cute†at birth but as head size, body depth, length and width increase with age, the legs do not grow in length. Thus, the adult dwarf appears to have an oversized head and body for its overall height.

None Moderate Severe 2. Dwarf foals are often born with retracted tendons, club feet and

buck knees that cannont be straighten out at birth. Joint enlargements and joint deviations (epiphyseal growth irregularities) are common. Extreme cow hocks, extremely short gaskins and severe sickle hocks, all with varying degrees of visible “joint looseness†and/or joint weakness are also common. Premature arthritic processes take place in most dwarfs, resulting in progressive ambulatory disabilities.

None Moderate Severe 3. Undershot jaw (“Bulldog†or “monkey biteâ€). The molars,

therefore are also mal-aligned, requiring that the teeth be floated much more frequently than for a normal horse.

None Moderate Severe 4. One type of dwarf has a large bulging forehead with extreme

dish (convex) face and turned up nose. Overly large and protruding eyes (sometimes placed at uneven angles.) Nostrils placed too high up on the face (brachycephalic). A second type of dwarf has a more normally shaped head and eye but the head is still much to large for its body. This type of dwarf does not usually have an undershot jaw as described in #3.

None Moderate Severe 5. Head obviously longer than neck (the distance from the poll to

the withers should always be at least 1.1 times the distance from the tip of the nose to the poll. In full size horses, the neck is almost 1.5x longer than the head.) In some dwarfs, the neck is so short that the head appears to come directly out of the shoulders.

None Moderate Severe 6. Girth depth greater than leg length; enlarged entrails and

genitals. Pot bellies are inevitable.

None Moderate Severe 7. Scoliosis, kyphosis and/or lordosis (vertebral deviations) are

common.

None Moderate Severe 8. Often unable to rear or stand on hind legs. Odd tilting

‘backward’ gait, with shoulder markedly higher than croup.

None Moderate Severe 9. Mental retardation and inactivity/depression (probably due to

pain) are often sequel to the various forms of dwarfism.

The decision of the AMHA Board at its meeting on February 3-4, 1989, was that if a horse exhibited any two of the above characteristics it would not be registered with AMHA. The presence of only one characteristic might prohibit registration depending on the severity.

 

[Little Bit]

[SIZE=12pt]I was thinking about this thread today when I was sitting out in the paddock surrounded by 5 of my precious little dwarves....of course we would NEVER deliberately breed for a dwarf, at least I hope no one would, but when these special little horses are born, many times it is not a "bad" thing. My little horses mean the world to me, and they have brought joy to many other folks as well. Little Tessa visits nursing homes and assisted living facilities every once in awhile, and to see the smiles on these folks' faces when they pet her and when she walks up to them and puts her little chin on their laps...well it just does my heart a world of good!

[/SIZE]

Thank you Shirley for remembering my Little Bit.

I still miss him sompin' awful.

Lisa you wrote:

When looking at your little ones...I only see beautiful little happy faces!!!God Bless YOU,

Lisa

Thank you, Hon for all your kind words.

That also made me think today, that there have been 12 pages of posts about dwarfism in the Miniature Horse, and only a couple pictures of Bond Tiny Tim posted.

Little Toy would have been euthanized if I had not said I would take her; what a shame that would have been, she's such a sweet little horse and enjoying her life completely! Toy is an Achondroplasia dwarf. Her dam was 16 years old when she gave birth to Toy, and she was the first dwarf she had ever produced. I think she probably had a foal every year since she was 2 years old. I do not think my friend will breed her again, I hope she doesn't anyway!

Here's my sweet Tessa who just turned 10 years old! I adopted her as a tiny baby.

She just amazes me, and I feel so very lucky to have had her for so long. I hope I will be able to enjoy her for many more years to come!

This is my precious Little Bit when he was 2 years old. He was a Brachycephalic dwarf, he grew to be 20 inches tall.

This is my little Inky, who AMHA registered; he's almost 3 years old now.

This is my little Smidgen on the left and Strawberry that I adopted this spring, Smidgen will soon be 2 and Strawberry will be 4 years old. I think they are wondering if Momma is going to give them some more of the goodies Santa brought them!