Would you breed to a stallion?

[kaykay]

i have started to post a couple times on here and erased it. ok im gonna bite the bullet here and say for people saying they would pull any horse that had a bloodline that produced a dwarf well you better start gelding. I looked a some of the posters sites and yes they are breeding bloodlines that have produced a dwarf.

i feel there is NO bloodline that has never produced a dwarf. So basically we would have to remove all miniature horses and start completely over breeding from ponies and small horses again if you guys really mean what you are posting. If we really truly took out every BLOODLINE that EVER produced a dwarf well then we are done!

before anyone flames me LOL i would never try to produce a dwarf and you all know that

And i love rabbit and she knows that. BUT (always a but) there is no way she can PROVE her claim that there has never been a dwarf produced from her lines. Just cannot be proven as a fact unless you kept every single horse you ever produced!!Since i know of no farm that kept every horse produced for over years and years theres just no way anyone imo can make that claim. Lets say you sold a filly. Later she went on to throw a minimal expression dwarf but her new owners have no idea that its a dwarf. So you never hear back from them and they breed the minmal expression dwarf and on it goes.

I have been told by many farms that their bloodline never produced a dwarf and then sure enough later saw a dwarf with that bloodline.

It all boils down to one thing. We need research!!

 

[Minimor]

But Kay, most people aren't saying horses from a bloodline that produced a dwarf...they are saying a specific horse that has produced a dwarf.

While it's quite possible that there have been dwarves in every bloodline...not every mini has produced a dwarf. I don't believe every Mini carries dwarfism--even a great granddaughter of a dwarf may not have inherited any dwarf gene from the dwarf 4 generations back--I am willing to take a chance on breeding a horse that hasn't produced a dwarf & that has what I consider the right conformation. However, if one of those breeding animals should this year produce a dwarf, then that becomes an entirely different matter! That horse is then, for me, out of the breeding shed!

It's not a perfect way to try & eliminate dwarfism, but like we've said, until there's a test available, it's all we've got.

 

[kaykay]

minimor

im basically replying to this statement

Lewella, I have to disagree with you here:

QUOTE

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.

So yes im not talking about specific horses im talking about bloodlines

sorry i should have made that clear! this thread kinda goes back and forth

etween the two.

But even when we are talking about specific horses. Statistics surely play a role here. My stallion tamale has never produced a dwarf. But does that mean he never will or is it only because he hasnt been bred to many mares?? Id like to think he never will but i have to be realistic. If you own a big well known stallion that is bred to hundreds of mares he probably will have produced dwarfs due to the number of different mares hes been bred to.

 

[Margaret]

Just to give my previous reply a little perspective,and I want to add that I have switched stallions this last year, and wanted to share that the great great grandsire of my current sire was suspected to be a dwarf by many. Many people have him as a foundation sire, in their own pedigrees. But, my sires dam in no way has had any dwarfs to my knowledge, or charactics of one herself, and he himself shows none. Nevertheless, I will be watching things closely for the first few years. If we ever have a dwarf, it will not be the end of the world, I'll just geld him, and that will be that. This is just the way that I feel led to do things, as we all have to awnser to our situtations. But I dont anticipate that I will need to do so, and am hoping for some normal healthy foals.

Susan, I respect your decision to do what you are doing, and in no way mean to sound judgemental.

Just trying to help others sort out the confusion of how to establish a dwarf free line.

 

[kaykay]

margaret for sure there are no easy answers and thats all im trying to point out. Its just not as black and white as some people think. There are so many shades of grey. For sure i would pull a horse that consistently produced dwarfs. No doubt about that.

 

[Lewella]

Okay, I'm speaking from a scientific standpoint here not an emitonal one. I understand this is an emotional issue - but more than that it is a scientific/genetic issue.

If dwarfism is polygenic just removing individuals who have produced dwarf offspring isn't going to elimintate dwarfism from the gene pool - this is a scientific fact. It isn't going to eliminate carriers of dwarfing genes from the gene pool either - another scientific fact. The only option would be to entirely eliminate all bloodlines that are known to have produced a dwarf - which as others have pointed out would basically eliminate the entire breed. Without a test for every single gene of a polygenic trait parts of that trait will always be present and capable of producing some form of dwarfism.

Going to go back to Fresians here - they have attempted to eliminate sabino from their gene pool. Have they? No. Why? Because it is a polygenic trait. Fresians still crop out with sabino roaning or a star caused by sabino now and then.

Recessive traits are also difficult to eliminate from a gene pool. The only way to do it is with testing. Again, the Fresians - they have tried to breed red out of their gene pool but haven't managed. Until every Fresian is red factor tested and found to be EE there will be the possibility of red individuals.

The only trait that can be easily removed from a gene pool is a dominant trait. It is simple to breed out tobiano. Some breeds have bred out gray.

Research is needed to know exactly what we are dealing with - until we know that we don't know how to handle removing the trait from the gene pool or at least resticting the propagation of the trait.

 

[Whitewave]

Thanks Little Bit for all your info I am a member of your forum and love it.Here is my dwarf Music Man. His sire (I do not own sire or dam) has produced 3 dwarfs out of three different mares and yes they are still using him for breeding.

Why I don not know but he will have three more foals come march 06. I ave aked the owner why and her comment was "well maybe I'll get a normal one, if not then I will Geld him". Sounds like a stupid reason to me. Luckly I did not buy andy horses or breed any horses to any of hers and my Stallion does not come from her lines.

Bless the little Dwarfs they truly raise your spirits when you need a hug.

 

[sdmini]

Wow 15 pages and for the most part all civil non-judgemental statments.

I, personally, can not say I would do this or I would do that. I believe that each and every situation should be looked individually.

If Gold Melody Boy had been pulled for producing a dwarf (hypothetical) yes the miniature world would have survived just fine but think of all the horses we would have missed out on. No Sid's Rebel, no Roan Ranger, no Buckeroo, no Skip a Star, no Johnston Super Charger, no B.O.B., no Zorro and the list goes on and on.

Not every horse, obviously, is GMB which is why I say every situation should be viewed as case by case. Many of our most sought after lines at one time or another produced a dwarf. The number of mares the "top" stallions breed in a life time compared to most stallions is going to also increase the chance they are going to produce a dwarf.

Lewella way to break it down for even a genetic idiot like myself to ahhhhh I get it.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I think the thing that saddens me most and yes I have played a part in it- is the feeling that and I guess the truth in.. that if we dont breed our horses or pull them from the breeding pool we would lose money and then what would we do with them.

I dont know how to get this breed past that mentality and again YES i am admitting I have played a huge part in that but thankfully seeing others who were a good mirror for me really helped me to see what I could and was on my way to becoming and admit that to myself and to me anyway that is a HUGE step and one that is enabling me to make some changes on my own farm.

Anyway I think if we could get past the no breeding = worthless something most other breeds dont have to deal with due to the many other options for there horses - I think we could really get research done, and take action but it is the mindset of breed breed breed, breed quickly do it at 2 do it at 3 just breed them

Again I dont have the answers but truly think that it is one of if not THE biggest issue facing our breed today

 

[Danielle_E.]

Any horse that has thrown a dwarf can be a carrier, and can also continue to produce seemingly normal offspring as well. The dwarf gene does not allways show itself in each offspring, although it can be carried through to the next generation. The only way to track a carrier is to know who the origional dwarf producer is, and to avoid those lines for breeding

I am going to play devil's advocate here with the above and add to it.

What iF you own a stallion who you breed to many mares in your herd. Lets say he is a carrier but you do not know this and one of your mare's is as well and they are bred - produce a "normal" foal but who carries the dwarf gene. You breed this mare and stallion a few times and the result is the same - foals are normal but they perhaps carry the gene and it doesn't show up for a couple of generations....

You sell the mare or the stallion so you never know that either one carries the gene. It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO

I wanted to mention the earlier information about the Friesans and dwarfism in that breed. It was not difficult for them to eradicate it since basically they only at the time had 3 breeding stallions being used. Quite a difference with the many many miniature horses males that remain intact and that many of them go back to some lines the possibly enabled the dwarfism gene to propagate as it has.

 

[~Palomino~]

Any horse that has thrown a dwarf can be a carrier, and can also continue to produce seemingly normal offspring as well. The dwarf gene does not allways show itself in each offspring, although it can be carried through to the next generation. The only way to track a carrier is to know who the origional dwarf producer is, and to avoid those lines for breeding

I am going to play devil's advocate here with the above and add to it.

What iF you own a stallion who you breed to many mares in your herd. Lets say he is a carrier but you do not know this and one of your mare's is as well and they are bred - produce a "normal" foal but who carries the dwarf gene. You breed this mare and stallion a few times and the result is the same - foals are normal but they perhaps carry the gene and it doesn't show up for a couple of generations....

You sell the mare or the stallion so you never know that either one carries the gene. It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO

I wanted to mention the earlier information about the Friesans and dwarfism in that breed. It was not difficult for them to eradicate it since basically they only at the time had 3 breeding stallions being used. Quite a difference with the many many miniature horses males that remain intact and that many of them go back to some lines the possibly enabled the dwarfism gene to propagate as it has.

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your right Danielle,

No-ONE can predict if a horse is a dwarf carrier, and NO-ONE can predict if a mare is going to have a dwarf, and NO-ONE should be held against it, I see if they kept breeding the same pare AGAIN AND AGAIN, but no one can stop a dwarf from being a dwarf if they dont know it is a carrier!

Gage

 

[Little Bit]

[SIZE=10pt]Susan, you wrote:[/SIZE]

I love them like I do my normal foals. I believe in letting them live as long as they can live a happy life, and in HUMANELY putting them down if it reaches the point where that can't happen or if they are not viable at birth. So in my way of thinking I am NOT causing suffering by continuing to allow dwarf producers to still breed, and I do not breed a pair who has produced one again. My little mares have just as much joy raising a dwarf foal as a normal foal. They love them very much. I also might add that I have only ever had two dystocias that were dwarfs. I have had more hard births ......maplresentations, tight births, breech births etc. that were NOT dwarfs.

If anyone wants to call me greedy.......... so be it. They don't really know me. I try very hard not to judge others, even those I disagree with. I ALWAYS try to look for the good in people, even those it is very hard to find it in.

Of course you love your dwarves like you do your "normal" foals, and I commend you for doing your best for them,

Heck, I even helped you find another home for lil' Puddin!

And of course a mare loves her dwarf foal, but I still don't understand your reasoning when you wrote:

So in my way of thinking I am NOT causing suffering by continuing to allow dwarf producers to still breed,

Perhaps you are not causing suffering with the dwarf foals that you produce, but what about all the other horses that you produce, who could very easily be carriers of the dwarf gene, because you have bred known dwarf producing horses,

who go on to produce dwarf foals?.... chances are those dwarf foals are not loved and cared for like yours.

I know you must have some very nice horses that have never produced a dwarf yet to your knowledge, why wouldn't you pull the known dwarf producing horses out of your breeding program and just use the horses you have that have not yet produced a dwarf? Why would you take the chance of producing a dwarf foal, or a foal that is a carrier, by continuing to breed your known dwarf producing horses?

I am not judging you Susan, just trying to understand your reasoning here?

I know it's not from a lack of education about dwarfism in the Miniature Horse, and you say it's not from greed.............

I'm not being judgemental of you or trying to be nasty,

just trying to understand you a little bit better.

Actually it's not just you Susan, but anyone else who continues to breed known dwarf producing horses.

I hope you won't be upset with me for asking these questions.

Just like the people Jan was talking about when she wrote:

His sire (I do not own sire or dam) has produced 3 dwarfs out of three different mares and yes they are still using him for breeding.Why I don not know but he will have three more foals come march 06. I ave aked the owner why and her comment was "well maybe I'll get a normal one, if not then I will Geld him". Sounds like a stupid reason to me.

Jan, your little Music Man could be my Toy's twin brother!!!! It's amazing how much they look alike!

 

[~Palomino~]

Janell,

I dont think Susan said she dosent mind if some of her foals are dwarves and that she dosent care if she produces one, I know Susan would NEVER NEVER intentionally produce a dwarf, but I think she is trying to say, just because a dwarf is born, dosent mean it should be hidden like its the end of the world!

I honestly think that all those foals that are out of Buckeroo have had dwarfs, but have you herd of ONE? I think what those people do is hide them, and never tell people because they are afraid that it will ruin there reputation!

Its not just Susan who has produced dwarfs before, and she isnt afraid to hide that her dwarfs deserve better, and they are somthing too! I really beleive that ALOT of miniature horses are being bred that are caring the dwarf gene, EVEN the people who say they wouldnt own a dwarf carrieng miniature horse, its not possible to know forsure, and you allready know this, but I just dont think Susan needs to be put down just because she LOVES her dwarfs!

Gage

 

[horsehug]

Little Bit,

Perhaps you are not causing suffering with the dwarf foals that you produce, but what about all the other horses that you produce, who could very easily be carriers of the dwarf gene, because you have bred known dwarf producing horses,who go on to produce dwarf foals?.... chances are those dwarf foals are not loved and cared for like yours

With your reasoning, how do we know if anyone down the line is going to take care of "any" foals, not just dwarfs? I tend to look for the good in people, and find it.

In general I do find most people to be basically good. In my experience, those who have dwarfs do as I do and either take good care of them or find them good homes. I think these days especially, with all the info out there and the internet, that there are people waiting to have little dwarfs to love and give special attention to. I know of quite a few myself.

In one of your posts, when you talked about how much you love your little dwarfs you said a dwarf is not always a bad thing and I agree. Tony also said to have a dwarf is not the end of the world and I agree. If I felt that small chance was for a truly bad thing, I would not breed my horses who are carriers.

As to greed, I am certainly not making much if anything over and above the cost of raising my little ones. I love having my foals each year and love seeing my mares enjoy their foals too. Like I said, I always wanted to raise horses from the time I was small. And I do find good homes and educate the buyers.

I guess if you think my letting my little mares have foals to love and me enjoy them too and find them good homes is greed, then we have different definitions of greed. When people talk about $$$$$ they are certainly not talking about MY program! I am thrilled just to make ends meet after all the feed and routine vet bills and all the other expenses that go with raising horses, and sometimes make the tiny profit the IRS wants....... but I first and foremost truly love the horses for themselves! I have some horses that I feel are free of dwarf genes (for instance one of my stallions has produced over 50 foals and never a dwarf) and I breed carriers to those horses, just like I would if we had a test.

And I do educate my buyers if I sell a foal from a carrier so that they can also educate on down the line.

I think we could go round and round about this, and I respect your right to your opinion.

Susan O.

 

[Margaret]

What iF you own a stallion who you breed to many mares in your herd. Lets say he is a carrier but you do not know this and one of your mare's is as well and they are bred - produce a "normal" foal but who carries the dwarf gene. You breed this mare and stallion a few times and the result is the same - foals are normal but they perhaps carry the gene and it doesn't show up for a couple of generations....You sell the mare or the stallion so you never know that either one carries the gene. It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO

Ok lets face it until there is a test for the gene we must use our common sence to eliminate the dwarf carriers.. Even a carrier will produce one eventually, and that will be the indication that he /or she has the gene. But not all offspring that generate from dwarf lines are carriers. So lets not throw out the baby with the bath water..yet.. Since some of us allready have made investments in horses that stem from dwarf lines, so the only thing we can do is to see if they ever throw one.. Once they do produce a dwarf, we can eliminate them from the breeding pool...But if they never do, we can assume that ours is not a carrier, nor a producer of one, and thus free of the dwarf gene. Its as simple as that, and really a good way to determine who is and who is not a carrier/producer.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

  It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO

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All i know for sure is what we are doing as a breed isnt working so something should and needs to change I think that is something we can all agree on.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Once they do produce a dwarf, we can eliminate them from the breeding pool...But if they never do, we can assume that ours is not a carrier, nor a producer of one, and thus free of the dwarf gene. Its as simple as that, and really a good way to determine who is and who is not a carrier/producer.

You can not, in my opinion, categorically make the statement, "my herd is free of the dwarf gene" in the following sense. Lets say your stallion IS a carrier but the mares he is bred to are not. This could be the case unless you have many many mares you are breeding to that stallion and you happen on a mare who has the gene. You may never know that indeed your stallion is a carrier and the same goes for a mare who is but is not paired up with a stallion who isn't. Now is it a "fact" that we know unconditionally that it takes the mare and the stallion to be carriers to pass this on? Or are we just assuming that this is the case in humans so hence it's the way it is in horses????? Are there any conclusive studies that have been done with regards to this in minis?

Susan O, I have the utmost respect for you as a human being and as a horsewoman. You are absolutely correct in saying that more than likely many of the famous stallions and their progeny could very well have and still do produce dwarves and they are "hidden" away like a dirty secret. I TOTALLY APPLAUD you and others that are upfront and take an educational role. You are taking "responsibility" and that is not an easy thing to do when faced with criticism.

 

[Southern_Heart]

Thought that this was interesting.

I found this on (Link)Congenital Anomalies and Inherited Disorders of the Horse

If you care to read the whole site, but this is listed under (Congenital Disorders of the Musculoskeletal System) second section.

Dwarfism refers to the failure of appropriate growth resulting in a smaller horse. A dwarf horse can be proportionate or disproportionate. Proportionate dwarfs are a result of a deficiency in growth hormone while disproportionate dwarfs result from abnormal thyroid hormone levels. The latter results in a foal with musculoskeletal immaturity, characterized by delayed cuboidal bone development, a large head, silky hair coat, floppy ears and mandibular brachygnathia. Determination and interpretation of either growth hormone assays or thyroid hormone function is not entirely developed or understood in the equine, hence the importance of clinical diagnosis. Efforts towards characterizing thyroid function and growth hormone levels should be undertaken to prevent overdiagnosing this condition. A nitrate toxicity theory has been confirmed in certain foals born with "congenital hypothyroid syndrome".

 

[runamuk]

This in my mind is just one more difficulty......I hear of more thyroid problems in miniatures than in other equine breeds..in fact most vets will tell you thyroid issues in horses "just don't happen" yet I have seen miniatures who did improve once put on thyroid medication.....this alone makes me go "hmmmmm" even with no other indication of dwarfism.

The other issue is every case of dwarfism needs to be studied carefully...and all environmental causes need to be ruled out first....as it isn't fair to blame genetics/heredity...where an environmental cause is to blame (fertilizer, herbicides, plants, etc...)

And then we are back to not even knowing if it takes two for certain to create a carrier/dwarf......many of the human forms can be accounted for by a single gene and not 2...or in the case of thyroid or pituitary it isn't so much a "gene" as a malfunction.....some of which can be reversed with medications................

which beg's another question ...if you could "fix" a dwarf with medication...would you?

Thought that this was interesting.I found this on (Link)Congenital Anomalies and Inherited Disorders of the Horse

If you care to read the whole site, but this is listed under (Congenital Disorders of the Musculoskeletal System) second section.

Dwarfism refers to the failure of appropriate growth resulting in a smaller horse. A dwarf horse can be proportionate or disproportionate. Proportionate dwarfs are a result of a deficiency in growth hormone while disproportionate dwarfs result from abnormal thyroid hormone levels. The latter results in a foal with musculoskeletal immaturity, characterized by delayed cuboidal bone development, a large head, silky hair coat, floppy ears and mandibular brachygnathia. Determination and interpretation of either growth hormone assays or thyroid hormone function is not entirely developed or understood in the equine, hence the importance of clinical diagnosis. Efforts towards characterizing thyroid function and growth hormone levels should be undertaken to prevent overdiagnosing this condition. A nitrate toxicity theory has been confirmed in certain foals born with "congenital hypothyroid syndrome".

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[Southern_Heart]

which beg's another question ...if you could "fix" a dwarf with medication...would you?

runamuk,

JMHO…I personally don’t believe it would be possible to fix a dwarf with medication. Because of the deformities involved.

But how ever maybe the parents having medication, sure couldn’t hurt, but here we go again….Testing is needed! Hum…

But I did think it was a good article…..

Joyce