Would you breed to a stallion?

[Tammie-C_Spots]

But statistically, if a horse produces a dwarf and is not homozygous for that gene, then it will also have the same chance at producing a horse that is not a carrier of that gene. From a recesive gene that both parents are heterozygous for you have the following:

25% of inheriting a double recessive (full blown dwarf)

50% of inheriting a single recessive (dwarf gene carrier)

25% chance of not inheriting the recessive (clear of the dwarf gene)

So, if you eliminate the parents, you should still let the offspring breed as long as they are not a dwarf or as long as they don't produce a dwarf. In this way you start to cut down the number of dwarf carriers. Not allowing dwarf producers to breed should only effect the immediate animal that produced a dwarf as one can't say for sure where the gene came from UNLESS a parent is a full blown dwarf.

But then what about the offspring's market value because their parents produced a dwarf... Well, it is my opinion that ALL of the bloodlines that we treasure have produced dwarves in them. It is the risk that a breeder should understand before they breed. The risk doesn't change from what it is today. It would be no different than it is today when someone knows that such and such famous horse produced a dwarf. And we all know that some of the most famous have produced dwarves, yet they are still being used and the offspring still in demand. This wouldn't change if one started to cull the dwarf producers IMO. The offspring would only increase in value as they carry the genetic traits of the parents but have not been proven to produce dwarves themselves. The key is looking at the individual and questioning what they produce, not looking at the parents and grandparents. Again, statistically, some of the horses would be free from the bad gene(s) that everyone is concerned about.

And like runamuk stated I think there are many different kinds of dwarfism traits. But, in reality we only want to focus on those traits that cause the deformities that are not part of our breed standard.

And the info from Mr. Eberth is very valuable. I thank him for that information and it is a great start to finding answers for the future and what he stated makes huge amounts of sense to me. His writings are the most thought out that I have seen from the miniature horse people, and I apploud his work.

But I do have to disagree with him in one part. Since we don't have a test, and by his way of reasoning not all minis will carry the gene, then we can start to change how much this is being passed on by eliminating some individuals from breeding again once they have been confirmed that they produce dwarves.

And, since the writing of that information, our population and quality of minis has increased by leaps and bounds. Since we have so many miniatures now, and so many really nice horses to choose from, we should not be concerned about the loss of some here or there. I still feel that if we take the approach of the Freisan registery and not allow the stallions to breed that have produced the dwarfs with the worst of the conformation issues, then we would be on the right road to trying to erradicate the worst of the deformities. The key is to remove stallions that are known carriers as they can produce more foals in a single breeding season than a mare can in her whole life. The Freisan registery does just that. They ask one to concider not using a mare that produced a dwarf, but force the stallion to be retired from the breeding shed once it has been proven to be a carrier. Yet they let the offspring continue to breed as those offspring will statistically contain some that are not carriers, and since they are not a dwarf themself, the have a up to a 50% chance of not being a carrier assuming that only one parent was a carrier.

And like Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said (great way to put it Lisa!!), once a test is developed for specific kinds of dwarfism, and once the registeries start to enforce testing, then the "dirty little secret" will not be able to be hidden any longer.

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IMO that formula wouldn't work because I don't believe that it's just one gene that makes a foal a dwarf. I believe more than one gene is responsible since we see such a range of dwarfism characteristics.

I also agree with Whitestar that if that rule were in effect that you just wouldn't hear about dwarfs being born because it would be kept quiet less it hinder the reputation of a farm or horse....

Tammie

 

[Margo_C-T]

I believe something else needs to be said regarding the breeding of 'carriers'--in Mr. Eberth's treatise, I strongly feel that when he mentions allowing 'carriers' to breed, it surely must be in the context of a situation where, once a genetic test has been developed, THEN the occurance of the undesirable characteristic(s)is MANAGED by rules which specify what crosses can occur. With CID in Arabians, for example, what I have read is that CARRIERS may be bred to NON-CARRIERS, but NOT to other CARRIERS; testing must first be done to determine a breedable horse's status. In this way, although more CARRIERS may well be produced, NO horse that actually HAS the condition is produced. Testing would need to be(and I presume, IS being required) on all offspring of a CARRIER to a NON-CARRIER breeding, with the same requirements going down the line of succeeding generations. Eventually, such techniques of management would have the effect of seriously lessening the occurance of dwarves. Simply 'taking note' of what horses had produced dwarves(and therefore, are presumed to be CARRIERS), and then going ahead with breeding of such horses, is likely to have little, if any, lessening effect on the production of dwarf horses in the miniature horse population. (The experiments with flowers were some of the classic work done by Mendel, if memory serves-fascinating stuff, and a real contribution to an understanding of the inheritance of certain traits, especially at the time.)

I am currently doing a complete run-back on the pedigrees of the horses involved in the single dwarf bred and born here,in the 20 years I was actively breeding miniatures. I already know that the well-documented dwarf, Bond Tiny Tim, is 4 generations back on one side of the sire's pedigree; when I complete it, I will detail it here.

I do not think that implementing rules would change much, as those who would not admit to having produced dwarves, already are in that mode of denial/concealment-so what would be different?

I also find it interesting, but to me, not at all surprising, that on the poll on another thread, when I voted(option one)an hour or so ago, that those who (anonymously) opined that they would go ahead and breed, but to other horses, were nearly double those who would NOT breed either again. Though many of the posts on this thread make me hopeful for 'down the road', for now, I don't think

the bottom line has really changed much. I think many people just do not grasp the concepts of genetics that are BELIEVED TO BE(based on their application in other areas of genetics)to be in operation; I also think some DO understand....

 

[Little Bit]

[SIZE=12pt]We've had one person who read my posts here on this thread, join us on "Little Bit's Forum".

[/SIZE]

I would like to invite anyone who loves animals to come join us as well. Several of the members have dwarf minis, many do not, but we love to share our experiences with anyone who is interested.

We have also put together a 2006 calendar with a collage of pictures of the members and all of their critters. There are pictures that range anywhere from a wallaby to 3 special ducks! The calendars are $10.00, with $4.00 of each calendar going to Little Bit's Help Fund, which is used to help folks who may need a little help to buy the glue for the *Magic Shoes* or any animals that may need to rescued from an abusive or neglected situation.

I have never deleted any of the threads or posts from the last year, so there's plenty of information and some beautiful photo albums to look at as well.

Mary Lou, I just happened to think..... I hope you don't mind me posting about this here on Lil' Beginnings, if so just delete it for me.

The address for Little Bit's forum is in my signature below.

 

[runamuk]

I believe something else needs to be said regarding the breeding of 'carriers'--in Mr. Eberth's treatise, I strongly feel that when he mentions allowing 'carriers' to breed, it surely must be in the context of a situation where, once a genetic test has been developed, THEN the occurance of the undesirable characteristic(s)is MANAGED by rules which specify what crosses can occur. With CID in Arabians, for example, what I have read is that CARRIERS may be bred to NON-CARRIERS, but NOT to other CARRIERS; testing must first be done to determine a breedable horse's status. In this way, although more CARRIERS may well be produced, NO horse that actually HAS the condition is produced. Testing would need to be(and I presume, IS being required) on all offspring of a CARRIER to a NON-CARRIER breeding,

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nope you presume wrong......you do not have to test and many still don't until such time as they 1 have a scid foal or 2 are trying to promote a stallion......

I know as my friend breeds arabs and 1/2 arabs and cid testing is not a pre requisite for registering.....

she did lose a foal a 1/2 arab technically the foal was 3/4 and even our vets did not catch on.......after the fact we heard that the mares sire and arab had tested positive ...at which point a light went on so my friend tested her stallion and sure enough so did he....he is slated to lose his nuts in the spring

and he has not bred any mares since that time.........

 

[user 488]

Whether or not there is a correlation of "sorts" between dwarfism and SCID......SEVERE COMBINED IMMUNODEFICIENCY in Arabians is certainly a mystery. But maybe by reading and understanding something as simple as this it might help people understand the reasons that it is so important to push for the funding to get down to the bottom of the dwarf problem.

About 8-10 years ago there was finally a conclusive test developed to determine whether or not a horse had SCID. Only thru the funding of people in the Industry did this come about. It was to our benefit not to stick our heads in a dark place when it came to this issue.

Breeding Arabians horses on the whole is much different than minis because there is so much more outside breeding.......shipping of cooled and frozen semen. Nobody that has an ounce of sense would breed their mare to a stallion that was not SCID clear. And the same goes for the mares. It's became all about EDUCATING yourself.

Below is information from Vet Gen. Very interesting if you give it a chance and not very complicated. Educating yourself sure stops a lot of heartache when foaling season arrives.

There is now a definitive test for the Severe Combined Immunodeficiency "SCID" gene in Arabian horses. This test unequivocally determines if an animal is affected, a carrier or clear of the mutant gene. The major and most important implication is that now there is no guesswork in avoiding SCID offspring.
Since SCID is an autosomal recessive disease, matings between two clear animals as well as matings between a clear and a carrier animal will NEVER produce an affected animal. By definition, carriers of genes for autosomal recessive disorders are completely free of clinical signs of the disease. That is, carriers do not have any negative consequences to their health or performance. If two carriers are mated, there is a 25% chance that the foal will be clear, 50% chance that it will be a carrier and 25% chance that it will be affected, a chance not worth taking. Prior to the advent of molecular genetic testing for autosomal recessive disorders, the only way an animal was identified as carrier was when he or she produced an affected offspring. The traditional recommendation in veterinary medicine would be gelding of these animals to prevent other affected offspring being produced. However, this is no longer necessary and not in the best interest of the breed. Carrier animals that have all the desirable traits for which the breed is known can now be mated to other tested animals who are clear and then never produce an affected foal. Similarly, their offspring can be tested and appropriate matings set up in the next generations without the breed ever suffering the loss of another foal to SCID. In this manner, the breed still continues to benefit from all of the outstanding traits that a carrier animal may possess. Thus, the economic value of the animal should not be affected by being clear or carrier.

Testing is easy and highly accurate, and can be performed at any point in time in the life of the animal with a simple cheek or lip swab or a blood sample. The cost of testing is a small fraction of the value invested in the animal. There is no reason to gamble on fate. All breeding animals need to be tested to avoid major losses and heartache to the humans and to prevent morbidity in the animals.

There are three possible test results: Clear, Carrier, and Affected. Below is a description of what each result means to you as a breeder.

CLEAR   This finding indicates that the gene is not present in your Horse. Therefore, when used for breeding, a Clear animal will not pass on the disease gene.

CARRIER   This finding indicates that one copy of the disease gene is present in your Horse, but that it will not exhibit disease symptoms. Carriers will not have medical problems as a result. Horses with Carrier status can be enjoyed without the fear of developing medical problems but will pass on the disease gene 50% of the time.

AFFECTED   This finding indicates that two copies of the disease gene are present in the Horse. Unfortunately, the Horse will be medically affected by the disease. Appropriate treatment should be pursued by consulting a veterinarian.

Breeding Pair Combinations CLEAR Stallion          CARRIER Stallion

CLEAR Mare                             100% Clear               50/50 Carrier Clear

CARRIER Mare                         50/50 Carrier/Clear         25/50/25

                                                                               Clr./Carr./Affctd.

     

Ideal Breeding Pair. Foals will not have the disease gene

Breeding Is Safe. No Affected foals will be produced. However, some or all foals will be Carriers. Accordingly, it is recommended that Carrier Horses which are desirable for breeding be bred with Clear Horses in the future, which will produce 50% carrier and 50% clear animals, to further reduce the disease gene frequency. These offspring should be tested by VetGen's test for this defective gene, and if possible, only the clear animals in this generation should be used.

High Risk Breeding. Some foals are likely to be Carriers and some foals are likely to be Affected. Even though it is possible that there will be some clear foals when breeding "Carrier to Carrier", in general, breeding this pair is not recommended.

Disease Statistics

VetGen has been collecting statistics on the Arabian Horse SCID test, and as a result of numerous requests, we are pleased to furnish this data to interested individuals.

Disease Frequency

As of January 25, 2005, having tested over 6,095 Arabian Horses, the percentages from our DNA tests are as follows:

Clear:

82.5%

Carrier:

17.2%

Affected:

0.3%

NOTE:

The SCID Affected Percentage only refers to the horses that have been tested by VetGen before they died (and they ALL died). Other affected foals died before they were tested.

Now.......testing is not mandatory in the US. But in order for a number of Countries to IMPORT testing is absolutely necessary.

And again.............Who would NOT want to know? Why would you not test your horse?

Well, again, the Arabian breeding Industry is much different than the Miniature Industry. Our National Champion Stallion booked 180 mares last year........not the norm but surely the numbers are high for top stallions. And again, nobody in their right mind would spend this kind of money breeding without testing. As long as people are EDUCATED you will not have a problem. But with minis, IMHO people just do not breed very many outside mares. If they finally develop a test........would you have it?.............would you publish it the results on your breeding stallions..........would it make a difference? Or would the same people claiming that they would never breed repeated dwarf producers and do anyway........and there are a number of them out there..........just hide it because there really is no reason to bring it up because of the lack of outside breedings?

Would Mini people as a whole demand the testing before they purchase a horse........because this is ONE way I see this making a difference.

Food for thought.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

And again.............Who would NOT want to know? Why would you not test your horse?

Carol - you're very correct on that one! If there was a test, I would want my minis tested and it would also affect my purchases in the future as I would not purchase ones that weren't tested. I would hope all reputable breeders would test, regardless if they stand to outside mares or not. (I can't imagine bringing in 180 outside mares though either!)

Now would I publish a horses dwarf carrying genes, I don't think I'd advertise it, but I would stop breeding it, and would be truthful about it.

Currently, we double register and DNA/parent qualifying (yes I know people can cheat), but I want to truthfully represent what we sell, so I would want to test for that if it was available.

We also research (for what it's worth) the pedigrees of all horses here, that we purchase or plan to purchase, ie specifically bloodlines. What concerns me is even when we know horse A (that we don't own) has produced dwarves, we can't 'out' the horse as there isn't proof (ie a genetic test) to prove it. I wouldn't want to get sued saying Ranch B's stallion A has sired a dwarf - unless it was out of my mare. They could always say it was some neglect on our part, single parent passing (my mare), environmental, etc.

I am glad to see more open discuss of this topic - it's a start towards honesty and getting a test in the future!

 

[Minimor]

Would I test our horses if a dwarf gene test was available? Certainly. Would I publish the results on our breeding stallion(s)? Certainly--because they would be negative....a positive result would mean the horse was no longer a breeding stallion!! Would I demand a negative test on any horse I was buying? You bet.

Little Bit--your Inky is so adorable, & I just love that photo of him!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

ok so i ask not being accusatory but what number would it take for those of you that say you would breed again just not the 2 togther?

2 dwarves from one horse 3 4 what is the number or is there a number you would say nope let me pull them out of the gene pool?

 

[user 488]

ok so i ask not being accusatory but what number would it take for those of you that say you would breed again just not the 2 togther?

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Good question Lisa. I would like to know what that magic number is too. And I am not being accusatory either. But it seems "some" people just don't give a darn if they are going to keep breeding dwarf producers. If old spot produces the color they want or the movement they want, etc. they are going to breed him/her. Seems like $$$$$$ are more of a motivation to many than doing what is right for the miniature horse themselves.

Somebody mentioned that you could not say what you would do in less you were in someone elses shoes that had a dwarves born..........sorry this just not apply IMHO. You are in this to better the breed or you are not. It's that simple.

Now I am not saying 1 dwarf.........I am saying dwarves.....magic number again.

Being an Arab person I can't even imagine being NUTS enough to breed two carriers! It's absurd!

What is that magic number? Maybe a poll?

 

[Southern_Heart]

If old spot  produces the  color they want or the movement they want, etc.  they are going to breed him/her.  Seems like $$$$$$ are more of a motivation to many than doing what is right for the miniature horse themselves.

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Saddly enough, I agree with you on this one! I beleive even with out testing... and knowing what your mares or stallions have produced on your farm, common sense, as to whats going on, should be a wake up call.

Joyce

 

[Lewella]

Tammie made a great point - what if Dwarfism is a polygenic trait? A polygenic trait requires more than one gene pair for full expression. If Dwarfism is polygenic it would take possibly dozens of different tests to isolate all the genes envolved and some may be genes that influence/control other desireable characteristics.

For example, both sabino and leopard are polygenic color traits. Say we wanted to eliminate one of them from the gene pool. In order to do that, we could inadvertantly eliminate the other because there is at least one gene known to effect expression of both. That's a scarry thought!

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.

 

[runamuk]

Tammie made a great point - what if Dwarfism is a polygenic trait?  A polygenic trait requires more than one gene pair for full expression.  If Dwarfism is polygenic it would take possibly dozens of different tests to isolate all the genes envolved and some may be genes that influence/control other desireable characteristics. 
For example, both sabino and leopard are polygenic color traits.  Say we wanted to eliminate one of them from the gene pool.  In order to do that, we could inadvertantly eliminate the other because there is at least one gene known to effect expression of both.  That's a scarry thought! 

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.

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Totally agree...and since we see different "types" or expressions of dwarfism.....it really does seem that there would be more than one gene that we are looking for...........and another thing is that as a group people do not even agree on what a minimal dwarf is...one persons perfect example of a tiny miniature is often in my eyes showing dwarf traits.......I have just completely given up the idea of breeding....and yes the dwarf issue is part of it.....along with the money end.....so my mini's are pretty much just my pets now....we will be doing gelding in the spring on my stallion and my colt

 

[horsehug]

Tammie made a great point - what if Dwarfism is a polygenic trait? A polygenic trait requires more than one gene pair for full expression. If Dwarfism is polygenic it would take possibly dozens of different tests to isolate all the genes envolved and some may be genes that influence/control other desireable characteristics.
For example, both sabino and leopard are polygenic color traits. Say we wanted to eliminate one of them from the gene pool. In order to do that, we could inadvertantly eliminate the other because there is at least one gene known to effect expression of both. That's a scarry thought!

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool

Lewella,

I totally agree with you and Tammie on this.

It has been interesting reading everyone's opinions. I also thought Whitestar's post was excellent. Thanks Debbie!

And after all 14 pages, I also still agree with Tony.

Susan O.

 

[Little Bit]

[SIZE=12pt]Lewella, I have to disagree with you here:[/SIZE]

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.

Since our only indication right now whether a horse is a carrier of the dwarf gene or not, is that it has produced a dwarf, I think we HAVE to use good judgement and pull those horses from the gene pool! There are LOTS of horses who have NOT produced a dwarf, as of yet, so why would anyone take a chance of using an already known dwarf producer???????

IMO it would only be someone who was not educated enough to know better than to use a known dwarf producing horse or it is the $$$$$$$. JMHO

It's also JMO that it should only take ONE dwarf for me to pull a horse from the breeding pool.

 

[Margaret]

I have to agree with little bit. I have seen too much suffering from "produced dwarves" to consider using anything that has produced one. Not only that but one that has produced a dwarf, if continued to be bred, can turn around and produce a seemingly normal offspring the next time, and that can be the one that has the greater potential to produce dwarves. So it isnt allways the obvious carrier that is the culprit, but insted the not so obvious offspring that continues to breed.

 

[chandab]

There are so many things that can be traced back to environmental causes, if people would take the time to track them down. It's astonishing the cases of accidental poisoning that occur simply because people don't pay attention to how long the field should remain fallow after fertilizing or spraying pesticide. Some of those fertilizers and pesticides will enter a horses system simply by the horse walking in the grass (route of entry is the frog, the sole, and the skin right above the coronary band).  Not even to mention if the horse should actually eat the grass. Horrible, horrible stuff.They are much more dangerous than many people realize, or even think about.

I agree completely with your post. It's just beyond my comprehension that people wouldn't consider fertilizers and pesticides as possible sources of poisoning (especially pesticides). Pesticides are toxic, they may be intended for a specific species or type of critter, but they are poisons, none the less, and should be treated as such for all animals. We all need to be sure we follow the directions when using fertilizers and pesticides.

Case in point... Someone lost or dumped some fertilizer in the road ditch. Someone else cut and baled hay out of the ditch, fed the hay to their bulls and lost several bulls in very short order. It wasn't intentional, but the person who put up the hay, should have been notified that a chemical spill had occurred.

 

[Firefall]

If you were to breed ones that had produced 1 dwarf in the past, how would you know who the carrier is if they aren't re-bred to a different mini?

Just wondering and trying to learn.

 

[EllieB]

I've been following this topic; very interesting.

Thank you for all the valuable insight.

 

[Margaret]

Any horse that has thrown a dwarf can be a carrier, and can also continue to produce seemingly normal offspring as well. The dwarf gene does not allways show itself in each offspring, although it can be carried through to the next generation. The only way to track a carrier is to know who the origional dwarf producer is, and to avoid those lines for breeding.

 

[horsehug]

I would just like to say that I truly love my horses and am one of the lucky ones who is living my dream of breeding and raising horses.

I have had a few dwarfs born over my 17 years here and have been open and honest about them. However, with the stigma that still seems to be attached to having one born, I can sure understand how it might be very hard for people who can't take the judgmental attitudes, to find it very difficult to be open and honest.

When one is born here I try to give it a happy painfree life or else find it a home where it will be truly loved in a less harsh climate than where I live with our long cold and snowy winters. I would never refer to one of these precious little foals, as hideous! I love them like I do my normal foals.

I believe in letting them live as long as they can live a happy life, and in HUMANELY putting them down if it reaches the point where that can't happen or if they are not viable at birth. So in my way of thinking I am NOT causing suffering by continuing to allow dwarf producers to still breed, and I do not breed a pair who has produced one again. My little mares have just as much joy raising a dwarf foal as a normal foal. They love them very much. I also might add that I have only ever had two dystocias that were dwarfs. I have had more hard births ......maplresentations, tight births, breech births etc. that were NOT dwarfs.

If anyone wants to call me greedy.......... so be it. They don't really know me. I try very hard not to judge others, even those I disagree with. I ALWAYS try to look for the good in people, even those it is very hard to find it in.

For the "small" financial benefit or profit from raising minis that I and most of us make, oftentimes taking a loss as a matter of fact, I don't think I'd be feeding in blizzards, subzero temps, constant wind, and snow over half the year, if I was doing any of this out of greed! I truly love my minis. They are my passion and I would NEVER intentionally breed for a dwarf....... but I do not feel guilty breeding nice horses, knowing there is a small chance that a dwarf will happen, since I know they are also capable of producing NICE foals which are for the betterment of the breed (as John Eberth explained his beliefs to me).......... since I know I will try to do what is best for my foals....... whether they are dwarfs or not!

I'd also like to say I would definitely have mine tested if a test was available. If in fact it takes two carriers to produce one and IF that were finally found out, we would know ( like in the explanation about Arabs) that a carrier bred to a non carrier would never produce a dwarf. And I and many others would be glad we had not eliminated our carriers then also.

While waiting for a test to become available, and waiting to know if it is polygenic like has been mentioned, which could get very complicated, I will continue to try to make very careful decisions in my breeding, like I always do!

Susan O.