Would you breed to a stallion?

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Actually with so little known about the causes of dwarfism in horses I still say you need to know all the facts surrounding the birth of a dwarf.
I wonder if it was Buckeroo or BOB, or Zorro, or Nighthawk who was the stallion in question....how many might not be so quick to to geld?

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While I somewhat agree I also think the bottom line facts are.. us ignoring or justifying the issue wth continued breeding is not making it any better. While there may be some other things that contribute to dwarfism i would venture to say they arent a huge percentage.

I just think I wonder where other breeds would be.. if they ignored the genetic issues in there own breed and justfied breeding known carriers.

There are some nice stallions both no and past..however I have yet to see ONE stallion i can truly say the breed would or could not continue without.

Again I dont have the answers but just something I think about.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Well I have to say I agree with Tony's point of view here. First off there is not enough research yet with dwarfism in miniature horses that give us the definite answers as to what actually causes dwarfism. If you study dwarfism in humans or read about it there are MANY different reasons why this can occur. It can be anyting from "spontaneous mutations" such as chromosone mutation to a multitude of other reasons such as already mentioned here, environmental triggers, etc. Now if I had a stallion and a mare that produced a dwarf mini I would not attempt to re-breed these two together BUT not knowing what actually caused the dwarfism in the offspring I would not necessarily jump to the conclusion that both had the "dwarfism gene". Actually can anyone give a factual explanation as to what exactly is meant by "dwarfism gene" and what it is? Is there really such a thing or is it much more complex than we know or think at this point.

Some syndromes are caused by genetic mutations at the moment of conception. Other syndromes are caused by the random combination of two recessive genes that may have been dormant for generations.

Take the example of the "bird flu" at the moment. Some in asian countries have come down it and even died from it and all we hear lately is that we are heading for a pandemic that is going to kill millions of people should this mutate and be able to jump from human to human. It hasn't happened yet but does that mean that all poultry, ducks, etc. etc. be killed and that we never eat chicken again? Seems pretty drastic to me when we don't have all the facts and yet some are crying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling".

 

[tagalong]

*shrug*

Once again - I say many of you probably ARE breeding carriers - and do not know it - yet. And yet are loud and proud to declare they would never do such a thing! You simply do not know. That mare who aborted early may have had a dwarf. That baby that died after birth may have been one. As was pointed out - if BOB or Buckeroo or Double Destiny or many of the stallions that are constantly drooled over had produced one or two in the course of their breeding career - I very much doubt that many of you would be sticking to your guns.... .

In a past discussion I pointed out a certain "historical stallion" - not the ones who are usually mentioned - that I saw in person - who was beyond a shadow of a doubt - a dwarf - although not so severely expressed. I saw him up close and personal. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. And yet I was shouted down on this board for daring to say so. His pictures even hint at it - but I was told I was wrong - no way - that horse was in THIS farm's lines and THAT farm's lines blahblahblah. People look the other way. Said horse is also probably in most of your pedigrees... alongside the Bond and Dell Tera sires who were known to be dwarfs.

I just think I wonder where other breeds would be.. if they ignored the genetic issues in there own breed and justfied breeding known carriers.

For many years - other breeds did just that.

HYPP in Quarter Horses. Have you ever seen a HYPP attack/seizure? It is terrifying... but long after it was suspected that the Impressive bloodline was at fault - the breeding continued.

Arabians carrying SCID... also of concern.... and of course LWO. Also epitheliogenesis in Saddlebreds and Belgians....

Fortunately - the markers for these diseases have been identified.

For those who feel that only ONE parent is responsible for a dwarf foal... then why are there not more of them, if that is the case?? Then there would not have to be a special set of genetic circumstances... and they could show up freely.

I would expect this is genetic in minis most of the time - as we have the evidence to prove that dwarfism was made part of the breeding programs...

Stallions such as this in most of our pedigrees... Bond Tiny Tim.

As well as others perhaps not so severely obvious...

 

[Danielle_E.]

The following may be of interest to this debate and brings about another point of view of mine.

This is in regards to dwarfism in Friesian horses and the findings.

http://www.friesianhorses.com.au/healthdwarfism.htm

 

[Danielle_E.]

Tagalong, I agree with you 2000 percent. You are sooo correct in your statements in your post!!!

 

[capall beag]

I have read this whole thread and think at the end of the day if only breeders where HONEST, individuals could make good decisions.

You cannot make an informed decision if you don't have the facts.

I think it is very underhanded to sell or breed an animal and not be upfront about their get good and bad.

Honesty goes a long way!!!!!!!

 

[Tabitha]

I am another that would not breed any horse that has produced a dwarf. I do not believe that dwarfism is present in every Mini. Even a dwarf stallion such as Bond Tiny Tim will not IMO pass the dwarf gene on to every one of his foals; roughly 25% of them should be free of his dwarf gene. So it's entirely possible that there are Bond Tiny Tim descendants that cannot pass on dwarfism to their offspring....while I don't have Bond Tiny Tim in any of my horses, there is a horse or two back in two of my pedigrees that I suspect may have been a minimal dwarf--or at least carried one copy of the dwarf gene.

Regardless of what has been done in the past (knowingly using dwarves for breeding), that's no excuse to continue using dwarf producers for breeding now. While it's true that any one of us may be breeding a horse that does carry dwarfism....in my case, if the gene is in my herd, it hasn't shown up yet. I can assure you that if I do have a dwarf born here, both parents will be taken out of the breeding pool, never to be bred again--not to each other, & not to any other horse. Of course we can't stop breeding every horse just because any horse "might" carry dwarfism....but it's an entirely different thing once a horse is a known dwarf producer. And no, I don't care how gorgeous the horse might be, how many wonderful offspring he/she may already have on the ground, how many big show awards he/she may have won, how "big name" he/she may be--regardless if it's a national champion with a big name or a little backyard bred horse, if it produces a dwarf, it is finished as a breeding animal here.

Research to date indicates that in horses a dwarf must inherit a dwarfism gene from each parent; it is not like dwarfism in people, where the dwarfism is linked to a gene mutation that can just 'happen' to anyone. While outside toxins may cause a few cases of what appears to be dwarfism, I personally believe that most dwarfism in Minis is genetic. Therefore, my answer to the question--would I use a known dwarf producer for breeding?--is an emphatic NO!

 

[Knighthawke]

I did want to say this. I went to a mini sale about 2 yrs ago. A very well known mini breeder has a stallion that is very hard to miss when you see him, he is easy to recognize. Well that breeder had a little dwarf at the sale it was a spitting image of her stallion. It was not revealed who the sire was but alot of people even said that looks like _____ stallion. I know that person is still breeding him and and he is still producing lots of AMHA championship stock and the offspring still bring very high prices.

There was even offspring from the stallion in questions at the sale and they still brought high prices.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I believe there is some confusion about the difference between genuine genetic dwarfism, and physical abberations that *might* be caused by environmental factors-and that while it may be possible that environmental factors(of varying kinds)*might* cause physical deformities, it is my considered opinion that seldom, if ever, would such deformities manifest themselves in the same ways as true dwarfism, and it should be quite possible to recognize one from the other!

Tabitha(along with others) is well-spoken in her post--however, I would have to disagree with her evaluation of the 'odds' of the offspring of Bond Tiny Tim having the dwarf gene/being dwarves themselves! Because of the nature of the pairing of recessive genes (Mendelian genetics), ALL offspring of a genetic dwarf WOULD at least be CARRIERS of one copy of the dwarf gene-and if ANY of the horses the dwarf was bred to was itself a CARRIER-that is, had one copy of the gene for dwarfism-then the offspring of those particular two would ALL be either CARRIERS or themselves be dwarves-period. This would be true no matter which 'direction' the breeding went-that is, whether the genetic dwarf were the sire OR the dam - however, it is the STALLION who can have more of an overall effect on progeny, because a stallion may sire numerous offspring in a year, while a mare(at least, until embryo transplant gets established....

)can produce only ONE in a year!!

The further 'away' from the original use of a genetic dwarf for breeding you get-i.e., grandget, great-grandget, and so on down the line-the 'lesser' the likelihood of a high percentage of CARRIERS in the bloodline- theoretically(and realistically, too, I feel sure.) THIS is why there is no need to 'throw out' EVERY individual of any given bloodline because back when, someone used a genetic dwarf ancestor for breeding. Because we do NOT have a way to test for CARRIERS, it IS something of a 'crap shoot' EVERY TIME two miniature horses are bred to each other; currently, the only way to KNOW pretty certainly that a horse is a CARRIER is when a dwarf is the result of a breeding-because this points to both sire AND dam being CARRIERS. THIS, to me, is reason enough, in and of itself, to NOT continue to breed those particular two individuals again, to ANY other horse. Our breed SERIOUSLY needs the research to be able to begin to identify carriers; similar serious genetic problems have (albeit after a lot of shameful foot-dragging...)been 'managed' in at least a couple of other breeds(AQHA, and by extension, their outcross breeds, and Arabians); the same should surely be possible in our breed.

(Those of you who have been here awhile know that I HAVE had a dwarf born here, and that I HAVE 'put my money where my mouth is', losing a sizable investment in the process--MY choice, and MY action-and I would do it again. )

I do NOT believe that removing known dwarf producers from the breeding pool would decimate the breed-nor do I think that it would completely eliminate the occurance of dwarves within the miniature breed-certainly not soon-as there are a number of unknown CARRIERS still 'out there'-AND, there is still the possibility of point mutations. I DO think it is the proper action to take.

(How many breeders do YOU know that volunteer that 'this' sire and/or 'that' dam have produced a dwarf??)

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

*shrug*

I just think I wonder where other breeds would be.. if they ignored the genetic issues in there own breed and justfied breeding known carriers.

For many years - other breeds did just that.

HYPP in Quarter Horses. Have you ever seen a HYPP attack/seizure? It is terrifying... but long after it was suspected that the Impressive bloodline was at fault - the breeding continued.

Arabians carrying SCID... also of concern.... and of course LWO. Also epitheliogenesis in Saddlebreds and Belgians....

Fortunately - the markers for these diseases have been identified.

I agree but at some point instead of saying well every horse has the gene.. it is just the way it is just accept it... they did something about it-

Again I am not saying where I stand on the subject as to be honest I am not sure I am saying though that.. just brushing it under the rug and accepting it for sure isnt the answer

and yes if buckeroo or BOB or anyone else threw a dwarf my statement would be the exact same I dont beleive there is a horse that this breed would no longer be able to continue if no longer in the breeding gene pool

not now not in the future- doesnt mean there havent been those who have surely left there mark though

I think though this breed isnt making strides to find out or do research simply for one reason fear. Fear that there horses may no longer be marketable , they will lose money ect. really to me it would be just being able to make better breeding choices.

Instead as a breed we are researching donor mares, AI and such when to me anyway this is pretty much at the top of the list JMO

 

[HGFarm]

I would never breed to a horse that produced dwarfs... and if he were mine, he would be gelded already so it would never happen again. JMO

 

[runamuk]

Research to date indicates that in horses a dwarf must inherit a dwarfism gene from each parent; it is not like dwarfism in people, where the dwarfism is linked to a gene mutation that can just 'happen' to anyone.  While outside toxins may cause a few cases of what appears to be dwarfism, I personally believe that most dwarfism in Minis is genetic.  Therefore, my answer to the question--would I use a known dwarf producer for breeding?--is an emphatic NO!

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I dont believe enough research has been done to date to make this claim. In humans there are now over 200 different forms of dwarfism documented. I will again bring up the fact that dwarfism is used to reduce size in certain breeds of rabbits and without dwarfism they would never get as small ats they do. Dwarfism also plays a role in several breeds of dogs and cats where specific dwarf traits have become breed traits. I also still have not been convinced due to a lack of good research, that there is a size cut off where dwarfism is required. People will then post pics of all their well conformed tinies....I didn't say they might not be well conformed but they very well may still be relying on dwarfism to become that small. Research people what we need is real research and to start documenting all dwarves and their pedigrees........until this is done we are all guessing.

 

[tagalong]

  Even a dwarf stallion such as Bond Tiny Tim will not IMO pass the dwarf gene on to every one of his foals; roughly 25% of them should be free of his dwarf gene.
Research to date indicates that in horses a dwarf must inherit a dwarfism gene from each parent

Tabitha - you sort of contradicted yourself there... as Margo C-T pointed out, a full blown (and severely messed up) dwarf like Tiny Tim (and look at those poor babies) would pass on a dwarf gene to EVERY offspring... the only factor that would thus determine whether the foal was a dwarf or simply a carrier would be the genetics the mare contributed.

I stand by my comment that many of you ARE breeding horses that carry the gene... and just do not know it. When so many dwarfs were part of a breed that had a limited gene pool to start with, saying NOT ME! NOT ME! is like sticking your head in the sand. One large breeder has repeatedly made the ridiculous claim that they have never had a dwarf born... uh huh. Right. Out of hundreds and hundreds of horses - to never have had a dwarf? How stupid do we look? Very few believe that spin... and yet again I guarantee you that those lines run in many - of not most - of your pedigrees...

 

[SunQuest]

Daniel, Thanks for posting that link. It is one that I have read before and fully agree with.

In 2004 I faced the exact situation of gelding my stallion because he may have produced a dwarf. I had a foal born with paralasys and while waiting for the vet to arrive I had to face the "what if" seriously. My first thoughts were "My gosh... I have a dwarf." My second thought was, and I told the vet on the phone BEFORE he arrived, "If that foal is a dwarf, I want the stallion immediately gelded before you leave." Then my third thought was "I am not sure about what to do with the mare as she is my favorite in build and attitude out of the whole herd, but I will most likely cull her from the breeding pool as well."

Honestly, I lean towards what the Freisian breeders are doing. Geld ALL stallions that ever produce a dwarf the FIRST time they produce one, no matter who they are or how famous they are. Then seriously evaluate the mare and ask if there is anything that is making the mare superior that will add to the breed and decide from there.

As for the big names of the past, we are paying for the errors of their ways now. But we can still correct it if we are honest about it as breeders and dilligent in trying to stop the trait from being passed on. Lets face the facts some, a mare may have 15 to 20 foals in her life, a stallion can produce 25 to 50 a year. If you wish to decrease the occurence of dwarfism, getting the stallions out of the gene pool that are KNOWN producers of dwarves will actually help to decrease the chances of the trait being passed on irregardless of the fact that it could be a single inherited gene or a double inherited gene. Any decrease in the occurances is a positive.

And I agree, there is not enough research on this. More needs to be done, but at the same time, we as breeders can not wait for the research to fix this when we can influence this ourselves by culling inferior stallions that are known producers. (I would consider defining a known producer as any stallion that has produced 2 dwarves from different mares just because it is not totally proven if it is one parent or two that contribute. But, in my opinion, it takes 2 genes, so for my personal situation I feel that it only takes one dwarf to make a horse a known producer of dwarves.)

So to answer the original question on the first post, NO I would NOT use a stallion in which I knew was a known producer of dwarves, and I would most likely not use a mare that has produced a dwarf either. Been there to have to make that decision, and I know for sure what it would be.

 

[Tabitha]

tag--SORRY, pardon me, I was posting quickly in between pails of water & yes, I did sort of contradict myself. I mixed up full blown dwarves & a horse carrying the dwarf gene, so sorry. But, as someone pointed out afterward, the more generations that pass after the full blown dwarf, the better the chances that the dwarf gene has been "lost" in many of the current horses. Using a dwarf in the past is still no excuse for using a known dwarf producer now.

... many of you ARE breeding horses that carry the gene... and just do not know it.

There are also people who believe that all Minis carry the dwarf gene. To my way of thinking, these are both very lame excuses for anyone continuing to breed known dwarf producers, mares or stallions.
I admit that gelding any stallion that sires a dwarf & spaying any mare that produces a dwarf is far from the ideal way to eliminate dwarfism from the breed, but until there is a genetic test that can say 100% for sure that a specific horse does or does not carry a dwarf gene, culling any & all known dwarf producers is still the best control we have. Sure, maybe we all have some horses that "could" produce a dwarf, but until one of those horses does produce a dwarf...we don't know that it will. I still believe that not "ALL" Miniatures can produce a dwarf.

While I know that you can't always tell by a horse's appearance if he does or doesn't carry a dwarf gene...I do have a certain criteria of conformation traits I will not accept in a breeding animal. There are some things which I believe do indicate there is a dwarf gene present--and some big, old time breeders have pointed out some of these same things to me--and those traits I simply will not take a chance on.

 

[justjinx]

Tabitha--i would love to get to know these traits. Would you list them? I know a few but i am sure there are many i do not know. thanks so much!

jennifer

 

[painthorselover]

hi everyone

i know a girl her name is holy justice.she has 5 black and white stallions.i bred my poppy girl to 1 of them.and she came out with a beautiful and adorable colt.he was brown white and black.i called him Scout.he was adorable.so if anyone wants to breed their minis to 1 of them and i will let you know more.you can pm me .painthorselover.

thanks katherine

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Just for starters we are dealing with at least two totally distinct forms of dwarfism (maybe more but two known for sure- Brachiocephalic- cute, big "peardrop" head, short neck, short back. And then there is Achondroplastic- hideous, ugly head, long back, short legs often missing the long bone in the rear leg (not actually, sorry, that is a visual description)

Now, bear in mind that, for all we know , the two distinct forms (and the many others we have not identified) may be inherited differently.

And it may be /is possible for a horse to have/carry/exhibit all/both forms.

It may also be possible for the horse to show minimal evidence of one form whilst "carrying" the other.

There is also the fact that, to my knowledge, dwarfism does not reduce size. Not without the animal being a dwarf.

For example, technically, I am a dwarf.

My Parents were under average height.

My paternal Grandmother was tiny- smaller than me.

Her family were small.

HOWEVER this is smallness, NOT dwarfism.

It carries no deformities, no birthing problems (all my family have had natural births)

If I had had children by another, very small person, I could expect a percentage (SORRY, no use at percentages!!) of my children to be small.

Depending on the size of my partners parents and grandparents.

What I could NOT expect is a dwarf child, unless there was dwarfism in the family tree.

Were my partner a "Dwarf" caused by a Dwarf gene, this situation would not be so.

I do not believe the smallness of a horse has anything to do with Dwarfism, Rabbit weighs in at 28" with NO Dwarf gene at all.

And passes it on to all his offspring (ie he reduces size in all cases)

Were the smallness of the horse to do with a Dwarf characteristic- ie a big horse with disproportionately short legs I might tend to disagree, but in most cases even the tiny horses I have seen on the Forum have only a slightly too large head ( a trait that almost all Minis have), and no other dwarf characteristics at all.

 

[hhpminis]

Tag

I dont think anyone is denying that we as breeders could possibly have a stallion or mare that carries the gene. Unfortunately the only way, at this time, to know for sure if you have one is for it to produce one. This is the question posed, would we, once we know, breed a horse that produces dwarves.

If we want to continue producing foals that could carry this gene then the answer is sure, why not, it only happens 1 out of 10 and the others are great! The farther away from those ancestors that we know carried this gene we are, the greater the chance that our stock does not carry the gene. If in fact we discontinue using the stock we find that do then eventually we can rid the breed of this plague.

The article on Freesians that someone provided a link to was wonderful and very much how I think we as responsible breeders can deal with a known problem.

Many have made very good points especially the latter pages of this topic.

A story, sorry it is long...

I bought a mare that I showed for a year before I bred her. She was a multiple supreme halter horse, everybody commented on her beauty. When I finally bred her she produced beautiful foals. I had the first one and she was absolutely breathtaking. I rebred her and the second was an odd birth, it was as if she just dropped the whole thing in one lump without even a sign she was delivering. It too was a beautiful colt, unfortuately it did not make it out of the sack and died. Awful experience, but off topic. At this time I had sold the filly and she was still a really nice yearling, showed well as a yearling. I rebred the mare and she had a very malformed foal, I almost put it down but she is the type of mare that wants to be a mom so bad and the previous year had mourned for days and my husband and I just could not bear to put her through it and the foal seemed to be improving by the hour. The foal did improve to the point that we assumed that he must have laid in an awkward position in the womb and just needed to "straighten out". He was gelded and sold. Someone approached me on buying the mare that year and I sold her. They wanted her right away and I sent her and the foal to their place. I was very honest about her foaling history and they decided they wanted to breed her anyway, I was going to retire her. Lo and behold, the next year she had a full blown dwarf. She and the foal were given to a non breeding home where they both could be loved and be pasture ornaments for the rest of their life. By this time the first foal was 3 yrs of age. Although I would not call her a dwarf, she was no longer the pretty little yearling she had been. She had gotten coarse and really not pretty at all. Hind sight being foresight, I am not sure I would have realized it any sooner but it was like a brick hitting me in the face when she had that dwarf. I was heartbroken and felt extremely guilty for the pain I had caused this mare for not.

I want never to have that feeling again, and no I will not breed a known producer of dwarves. At this time, this is the only method we have of controlling the "issue". Until a better one comes along this is the method I will use and I really hope others will take it seriously enough to do something. It may not be my exact solution, but at least if the horse has 1, 2, 3, whatever each person considers the magic number of proof, consider it a problem and have the dedication to the betterment of the breed to do something about it and remove the horse from the gene pool.

Sorry this was so long, didn't mean to write a book.

 

[Songcatcher]

I believe there is some confusion about the difference between genuine genetic dwarfism, and physical abberations that *might* be caused by environmental factors.....  Tabitha(along with others) is well-spoken in her post--however, I would have to disagree with her evaluation of the 'odds' of the offspring of Bond Tiny Tim having the dwarf gene/being dwarves themselves! Because of the nature of the pairing of recessive genes (Mendelian genetics), ALL offspring of a genetic dwarf WOULD at least be CARRIERS of one copy of the dwarf gene-and if ANY of the horses the dwarf was bred to was itself a CARRIER-that is, had one copy of the gene for dwarfism-then the offspring of those particular two would ALL be either CARRIERS or themselves be dwarves-period. This would be true no matter which 'direction' the breeding went-that is, whether the genetic dwarf were the sire OR the dam ..... 

Because we do NOT have a way to test for CARRIERS, it IS something of a 'crap shoot' EVERY TIME two miniature horses are bred to each other; currently, the only way to KNOW pretty certainly that a horse is a CARRIER is when a dwarf is the result of a breeding-because this points to both sire AND dam being CARRIERS....

Our breed SERIOUSLY needs the research to be able to begin to identify carriers; .....

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I want to say first of all that I really appreciate this thread and the civility that has been demonstrated. Secondly, I want to say that I have no answers (that shouldn't surprize anyone), just some thoughts.

I agree that this is a very complicated issue. If it it does require both parents to be carriers of a dwarf gene to produce a dwarf foal, the dwarf is essentially homozygous for the dwarf gene. Two carriers should have a 25% chance of producing a dwarf, just as breeding two LWO carriers would result in a 25% chance of a lethal white foal. By the same token, breeding two obvious dwarfs together should produce 100% dwarfs. I don't know if that has ever been tried and certainly DON'T recommend it, but it would make for interesting research (at an extremely high price to those animals involved).