Rule change to stop shaving horses?

[Erica]

Well as one can see by my posts on previous pages, I don't see how razoring could be considered cruel treatment - I do see how some may not like the look as we all have things we like and dislike. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on things, but it is different to say I "think" it is cruel than "IT IS" cruel............especially if you have never done it yourself.

but for me I see so many other trival things at shows ( if we are going to be trival in calling razoring = cruelty)...........I mean so many "think" if they have a thin horse that makes it refined. I have seen some horses showing this year that I could literally count ribs and see hip bones, I have seen driving horses so malnourished that they hang their heads and can't pick up their feet, horses that are obviously wormy - with dull coats and mangy hair. Horses that look so bad I wouldn't want to show them to people that were at my farm until I got them looking better and these people are off parading them around.

Or how about those that quick feet to get them measured shorter? Or what about those that inject air under the skin to get the look of "muscle"? I mean the list could go on and on...........razoring don't seem so bad to me.

I have yet to have a horse throw a fit when getting groomed - most tend to take a nap while I am doing it. They actually love being pampered, groomed, clipped, bathed, facials the whole shabang and get jealous of each other while I am working on one.

Any situation could be called cruel or abusive - if not done properly. I mean some would call the way someone halter breaks abusive, some could call the way they handle a horse when it acts up abusive, others might call a twitch abusive, using a treadmill, tieing a horse up for a period of time to learn patience/manners??

I will be clipping and razoring my horses all weekend at Nationals so if anyone wants to really see if my horses consider it cruel just stop by at the grooming stall and watch.

 

[LoveMyHorses]

Personally I believe any clipping of the body is unnatural, God put beautiful coats on these horses and people who feel they need to shave it off their horse to get a certain "look" should try to breed better horses, but I guess clipping is easier !  And any judge that cannot judge the quality of a horse with it's natural coat isn't much of a judge.  Not shaving might also eliminate a lot of altering the color and conformation outline, gosh wouldn't that be terrible if the horse looked the way it was built naturally?

Bolding mine. That ^^^ is unbelievable.

Shaving off inches of fuzz... will only show EXACTLY what the horse's conformation is like - nothing can be hidden. HOW?? WHERE?? Everything is there to be seen... not hidden by a thick winter coat.... the idea that shaving will alter conformation - is NONSENSE.

And the colour usually suffers - which is why you have to plan when to clip for the best results. I respectfully suggest that some need to read what they type before they submit it...

Unless you live under a rock, you will have noticed that coats vary in thickness and texture... some horses may slick off very nicely in the summer... and some never lose the longer look...

We used to tell people that if you wanted to see the whole herd (sort of) slick and shiny - you had one week at the end of July to come and ogle - as after that the winter coats start to come in....

And HORRORS - I clip the foals in the summer if there is a heat wave... why let them puff and pant when they can drop their "jammies" and buck and run and roll and play... demmit - that's ABUSE!! Report me....

For our recent photo shoot... some horses were done in their current slick summer coats with just a touch up on jaws and legs - and a few needed a body clip - as the fuzz was rising thick and fast... it all depends on the individual horse.....

The labels of ABUSE and CRUELTY being tossed around in this thread so flippantly

reminds me of threads here a while ago where gelding anything was cruel... and all showing was abusive (unless the one complaining was doing it of course) ... surely some here remember that....

Anyway - it all comes back to the "clip if you care to - don't if you don't want to" common sense - but to paste labels on people and pass judgement in the way some do on this issue.... is... well... there are no words...

Oh - do drop by and check out the poor mares who were clipped with a 15 2 weeks ago.... they are shiny and dappled with spectacular coats.... and are quite the contrast to their shaggy herdmates...

ETA: And NO - I do not do eyelashes... I think some are definitely confusing actual eyelash shaving (which I have seen - but rarely now) with the closer shaving (not always balding/razoring) above the eyes....

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PLEASE, clipping a colt or filly in the spring when it is hot is nothing like what is being done to some show horses. Even clipping studs and mares to get the winter fuzzies off, is not what this is all about. You know that! Why do you feel it necessary to be so rude with your remarks?? Would you take shaving cream and your razor to your cat or dog?? That is what I am talking about and you know it. I have told some who have emailed me, that I would not answer or reply to such rude postings, but I could not resist it. Get real, you all know what I am talking about.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Well I certainly do agree that people may have turned that thread into something you didn't like but who are you trying to blame for that? One of those gals implied [refer to what was said between them below and using my name as the target] that people start a thread to see a fight..how sick of thinking is that ? It isn't the thread starter that creates a fight, if there is one, it is the people who respond to it. Long before I became a member of this forum there were certain people saying

that it was thread starters who were at fault. Don't you see that no one has to respond to a thread and make a bad thing out of it unless they choose to. Ignore the thread if it doesn't appeal to you. It does take more than one to fight so don't blame just one person for God's sake. Yes it was interesting to see how quickly people were to over react to a thread that seemed to be a sore subject to them...but why did they want to make it even sorer by getting nasty? Someone said one of my statements was completely unnessarey..her opinion and she is intitled to it but I still had the right to say what I did just the same as any one has the right to say what they did. When people start being rude enough to imply their butts are to be a part of their statement I can't help but think that is the end they are using to think with. I did not turn this thread into a fight and I will not accept responsibility for it turning into a fight if that is waht you are implying. And asking what I thought would happen when I made the post is no doubt someone thinking everyone else is up to something rotten. If they found it so boring as to yawn, why in the world didn' they pass it by? Not a question for you but just something for you to think about. Also, what one person may think is a joke, another person may think of as something serious. I don't know the reasons for that person posting her dislike for the things she stated but she does have a right to her opinions. Some even implyed that someone like that didn't show or know what they are doing and yet all you have to do is go to their site and you will see they do some very nice winning and have gorgeous horses. What ever

his/her reasons for not liking the clipping close or cutting off eyelashes is, she has a right to to them and if she has good reason for trying to get some rule passed [know it won't] she also has that right also. It just is so sad to see people have such strong opinions about what they like or don't like and yet get nasty with those who have a different opinion. Even though you and I may not like the words abuse or cruelty used in defining the acts of clipping close and cutting off eybrows it is still words that someone else may use because they have a different perspective on the subject. Just the way I see it. And btw no one has to follow a rule if they don't want to[people prove that all the time] so why the big fuss over it? Go back and read what I wrote when I copied that from Lil Beg saleboard. Mary

Vertical Limit Minis @ Sep 5 2005, 02:26 PM)

Well Mary, what exactly did you think would happen when you posted the topic?

up either. <BIG YAWN>

QUOTE

Buckskin Gal, I find your comments completely unnecessary, I wasn't directing my comments towards anyone but the person with this joke of a rule proposal! The person proposing this "rule" is in fact trying to change what I want to do with MY horses. This fact alone is enough to light a fire under my butt.

LOL......Lacey............a well needed giggle even though I am sure you did not mean it that way. But I couldn't agree more and believe me my butt is one big butt to light!

Lacey and Carol I agree I do think perhaps there are to many that like to play watch them fight sigh...

But Carol add my umm rather untiny butt to the list as well

Boy you gals can't even take resonsibility for your own so called "fights" I don't see any one wanting to start fights, this is not what posting this was supposed to do but I don't control what people do...they do it and then try to blame someone for what they do. Some complain about divisions, well those who fight cause more to divide than any one else. Who is fighting!! You , the other person or just what is going on...thought discussions were supposed to be going on and if people choose to respond to something that you think is all about starting a fight why join in? Looks like afew hot heads here. And as far as what I have said about the shoe being on the other foot, I do stand by it. I think it was stated at the beginning as to why I copied the article but then a few of you want it all your way and nothing else. Mary

BOLDING mine. NO ONE said that... ANYWHERE. Geeeeez.

Mary... with all due respect, THAT ^^^ is one of the most "hot-headed" and argumentative/fighting posts on this thread. Pot. Kettle. Black. Or that is how it comes across...

People were discussing the clipping issue, how such a rule would be enforced and what they thought of the idea. NOT specifically going after the person who posted that on the sale board. When you single out the "girls" as you have... it becomes a bit of bashing.

Message board etiquette.... refer to the post and not the poster. And ALL opinions - even those you disagree with... are valid.

And on this board... words like ABUSE and CRUELTY are going to be incendiary... that much should be obvious...

*sigh*

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[Buckskin gal]

I didn't say any one said it ...I said it! And if message board etiquette is to not refer to the poster by name, than why did you do it? Heh they used my name so why didn't you go after them? Some more do as I say and not as I do and calling the kettle black yourself?

What is it, some prejudice that some can do things but not others?

Mary

BOLDING mine. NO ONE said that... ANYWHERE. Geeeeez.
Mary... with all due respect, THAT ^^^  is one of the most "hot-headed" and argumentative/fighting posts on this thread. Pot. Kettle. Black. Or that is how it comes across...

People were discussing the clipping issue, how such a rule would be enforced and what they thought of the idea. NOT specifically going after the person who posted that on the sale board. When you single out the "girls" as you have... it becomes a bit of bashing.

Message board etiquette.... refer to the post and not the poster. And ALL opinions - even those you disagree with... are valid.

And on this board... words like ABUSE and CRUELTY are going to be incendiary... that much should be obvious...

*sigh*

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[Relic]

NIT PICKING.

 

[Tabitha]

Do you all realize how ridiculous this thread has become? How silly some of you sound? Nit picking is right.

If anyone dislikes the current show ring "look" and wants to see a new rule to regulate it, he/she is welcome to make a proposal to either registry...if anyone doesn't like the proposal, if it comes up for vote you're welcome to vote against it. If it never makes it that far, you've no need to worry--and if you're sure it will not pass, you still have no worries. If it does pass, well, that will say something too I guess.

Someone posted on the saleboard; someone else drew it to our attention here--since I haven't been to the saleboard in days, I said "interesting" and let it go at that. I fail to see why something like this cannot be discussed without resorting to rudeness as has been displayed on this thread. If the word "cruel" in this instance is inflammatory to you, that's no excuse for retaliatory offensiveness--and some do delight in being offensive.

Good night all.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I lead by example. I do not wish to clip. I do not likethe look of razoring......ergo, I do not do it!!! What is the problem?? The eyelash thing?? Yes, I am sure it is cruel, simple because, run by a humane official I was told it would be considered cruel if done deliberately so a slip of the clippers does not mean the complete removal of eyelashes it means a neatened up gap in them!!! (Yes, I have done it many a time!!) and would never be done in an English Show ring. I cannot think why anyone would do it and it would seem the majority of us are against it so I think it will be self limiting. It only takes a few people not doing something and winning for others to question and then follow suit. The reason so many exploded is because cruelty was suggested, and I cannot for the life of me see where, apart from the eyelash thing, cruelty comes into it. Have you ever seen a Standard Poodle in the ring?? They are shaved a LOT closer than a Show Horse. This is not cruelty, and the word is confusing the issue. I would like to see eyelash removal banned but I would also like to think that it is not necessary to legislate and that common sense will prevail. A "strongly discouraged" clause would do it for me.

 

[k9mini2]

Guys when you copy a portion of someones post and then go about making fun of it you don't think thats being personal???

As far as fearing someone dragging my horse behind a trash can and clipping It nope no fear I am a brave sort

But guys judges do look at presentation and grooming is part of presentation. I have no idea if any judges look at the horses razored and greased up as better presentation or not. I do go to shows and watch I over look all the excess grooming...I have seen it all before in different species and or breeds and realize its the show craze style. BUT like you I will do what I want to do I don't care if you guys want to do it...but I do have the right to my opinion...it looks UGLY

to me Sorry. Don't be so sensative...you can tell me ungroomed horses are ugly I don't care.

I had another breed of horse (gaited) and head shake was a real big thing for them and they wanted the ears to flop to show how much head shake the horse had. Well the trainer and some exhibitors would pour oil in the horses ears to make the ears flop and some even went to the extent of clipping the muscles that control the ear. Both were dumb and cruel to me...but there was no rule against it. To be honest it totally turned me off it made the horses look dumb and ridiculous when they moved with ears flopping back and forth like dead limbs...

Presentation...

 

[k9mini2]

Guys when you copy a portion of someones post and then go about making fun of it you don't think thats being personal???

As far as fearing someone dragging my horse behind a trash can and clipping It nope no fear I am a brave sort

But guys judges do look at presentation and grooming is part of presentation. I have no idea if any judges look at the horses razored and greased up as better presentation or not. I do go to shows and watch I over look all the excess grooming...I have seen it all before in different species and or breeds and realize its the show craze style. BUT like you I will do what I want to do I don't care if you guys want to do it...but I do have the right to my opinion...it looks UGLY

to me Sorry. Don't be so sensative...you can tell me ungroomed horses are ugly I don't care.

I had another breed of horse (gaited) and head shake was a real big thing for them and they wanted the ears to flop to show how much head shake the horse had. Well the trainer and some exhibitors would pour oil in the horses ears to make the ears flop and some even went to the extent of clipping the muscles that control the ear. Both were dumb and cruel to me...but there was no rule against it. To be honest it totally turned me off it made the horses look dumb and ridiculous when they moved with ears flopping back and forth like dead limbs...

Presentation...

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

But guys judges do look at presentation and grooming is part of presentation.  I have no idea if any judges look at the horses razored and greased up as better presentation or not.  I do go to shows and watch I over look all the excess grooming...I have seen it all before in different species and or breeds and realize its the show craze style.  BUT like you I will do what I want to do I don't care if you guys want to do it...but I do have the right to my opinion...it looks UGLY

to me  Sorry.  Don't be so sensative...you can tell me ungroomed horses are ugly I don't care.

...

Presentation...

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simply put that is an opinion i can respect

 

[RebelsHope]

I am sorry but this whole... "It is not natural" thing has me irked. I sure hope you natural people don't feed your horses sweet feed, keep them in a dry paddock, halter them, drive them or ride a big horse, have their hooves trimmed, use fly spray or given them vaccinations. I hope that all you have are large mares and stallions because I have never seen a 30 in gelding in nature. Frankly there is very little that is natural that we do to our horses. I personally don't want a hairless horse covered in grease but if others do. . . so be it. It is not as anymore unnatrual than forcing a horse to pull a cart behind them or carry you cross hill and dale. I especially hope that none of you that are natrual people posted on the other thread that you give your horses french fries or soda pop. Heck I am not sure where a wild horse would even find carrots. Okay this might sound a bit strong but let's be reasonable here. From what I have seen most of the people on this board take extremly good care of their horses, so if they like shave them down . . . so what. The horse is none the worse for wear. Isn't that what really matters?

 

[wpsellwood]

Now I ask, why is your way the only correct way and you get so upset if someone disagrees with the treatment of so many show horses.

What Im reading is that if you dont want to clip fine and fine if you do, no one is saying one way is the correct way, but you in fact are trying to push your way, which I find very distasteful. I find alot more cruel things that need to be policed besides the dang size of blade you use. (to thin of horses, maybe we need a weight guide???) Give me a dang break and apparently someone has to much time on their hands. You dont see any of the people out there that prefer the clipping and the shaving making it a rule that you have to do that to show???.

Now all of you that dont want a rule change lets make sure and get together to enforce a non rule.

I dont generally post and get my feathers ruffled but this has to be the one of the worst rules I have ever heard of being proposed.

 

[Marty]

I can't believe this thread is still here.

Oh now erica come on lets admit it there are those show people you know those evil blasted show people who wait till a unsuspecting natural horse walks by near the in gate and then we spring into action grabbing the horse pulling him behind a trashcan clippers in one had razor in the other and make sure that horse is clipped and razored before he enters the ring

Leese that is just too funny......

Actually a small version of that actually happened to me at my first show. I was about to enter the ring next and Carolyn Huges was standing there and grabbed a hold of my horse complete with her grooming tools in hand and slickered up my horses a whole lot better than I had and added some extra finishing touches. I was greatful. I learned how to do it right.

 

[susanne]

You dont see any of the people out there that prefer the clipping and the shaving making it a rule that you have to do that to show???.

No, but the pressure to clip is extreme.

1-1/2 years ago when I first talked of wanting to show without body clipping, I was told right here on this forum:

-- that I would be laughed out of the show ring

-- that a horse show was not an outlet to express my individuality

-- that I was paying for a judge's opinion and that I shouldn't second guess what they want

-- that by showing unclipped, I would be showing a dirty, unkempt horse -- a horse in its bathrobe or with hairy armpits

-- that if I was that lazy, perhaps I shouldn't show

I've already spoken out against a rule against clipping, and I do not feel it is cruel, but I hate to see anyone feel pressured either to do things any one way. I've read posts by others saying they hated balding, but felt that they had to do it to be competitive.

I wish everyone would maintain their convictions and show their beautiful horses as each of them looks best.

 

[wpsellwood]

No one should be pressured either way and Im sorry you felt that way. I sure believe its each to their own. I guess I get ruffled up because we end losing our choices little by little. We do alot of A shows and I can tell you our friends that really are in it big time, they carry a show string of 30 plus, some horses they show havent been body clipped for a month. So if you dont want to clip dont, but if you do it should be a choice not a rule.

 

[susanne]

So if you dont want to clip dont, but if you do it should be a choice not a rule. 

Brenda, I agree 100%!!

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

[-- that if I was that lazy, perhaps I shouldn't show

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This is the one I find the most irksome, if anything the opposite is true. You have to work your buns off and prepare many months in advance. It's much easier to shave the coat off and spray on an coat enhancer to produce an artificial shine than it is to feed, condition and spend hour upon hour grooming the natural coat to make it look halfway presentable in the ring. I doubt some are going to want to go to those extremes anymore, especially with a large show string, and may be at the root why the practice is so popular.

But if someone wants to razor their entire horse bald to go with some current fad, so be it. No one should be forbidden to do what is considered by most a harmless, accepted practice. If it that abohorrent to enough people, it will die on it's own in time anyway. I rather like a more natural look too but then again no one is paying me for my opinion what I think looks good either.

 

[user 488]

Again, this whole thread, for most, has been about CHOICE. Everyone should do what they think looks best for their horse. It's nobody else's business what one does with their own animal to prepare it for the showring.

The abuse part I just find ignorant and just wish people would educate themselves.

BTW.....Shirley........love the signature line

Never argue with an idiot. S/he will wear you down to her/his level, then win with experience.

 

[tagalong]

I didn't say any one said it ...I said it! And if message board etiquette is to not refer to the poster by name, than why did you do it? Heh they used my name so why didn't you go after them? Some more do as I say and not as I do and calling the kettle black yourself?  What is it, some prejudice that some can do things but not others?

Bolding mine again - what is this - fifth grade?? Neener neener stuff?? It seems that some only find things that are rude in the posts they disagree with... otherwise - anything goes and they can say whatever the heck they want.

Prejudice??? *snort* No. I mentioned your NAME, Mary, (and note I said with all due respect) merely to draw attention to a point. I did not single you out to bash you, call you stupid or abusive or cruel. You cannot determine "tone" from a computer screen... but you may be reading attitude into things that was not there. As I hope I am wrong about the hostility being projected in your post. I would love to be wrong.

As far as quoting other's posts - well - that is what you do on a message board - so you do not misquote people. That is proper etiquette. Danged if I'll quote that post!!

And YES - I know that shearing babies off is different from showing - I used that example to make a point.... that when so many are insisting that body clipping is cruel - well if the babies are being clipped with a 15 then I am in some sort of violation and abusing them, right?? *sigh* As I was when I prepped those mares for the photo shoot... and they were not razored for that - but were clipped with 10s, 15s... and 30s...

FWIW I have never liked the look of the extreme razoring personally... especially when it is done way too high and blended in badly.... or dark skin showing on gray horses and making them look like Groucho Marx.... I have noticed that the trend now is lower razoring and better blending ... not halfway up the face... everything goes in cycles - and so will this. Arabians went through the same thing. But I would never howl at people for it being abusive when actual abuse IS going on while people look the other way - or dwell on (by comparison) minor details or something that is simply not to their personal taste. If razoring goes by the board at some point - fine. If not - fine. But when even clipping is considered CRUEL...

This is not cruelty, and the word is confusing the issue.

THANK YOU, rabbitfizz... that is the problem in this thread... as I said before - with the terms cruelty and abuse being tossed about at leisure - and in an incendiary way....

All this insistence about going after AMHA on this - better do AMHR as well - and cover all the bases....

It's much easier to shave the coat off and spray on an coat enhancer to produce an artificial shine than it is to feed, condition and spend hour upon hour grooming the natural coat to make it look halfway presentable in the ring. I doubt some are going to want to go to those extremes anymore, especially with a large show string, and may be at the root why the practice is so popular.

Ummmm.... so now those who clip for shows are lazy and taking shortcuts?? *sigh again* Good conditioning and feeding and grooming is still essential for a coat in good bloom with the dappling and shine you need to look good in the show ring... the sprays etc. only enhance what is already there. If you clip a dull coat it will still not look good - no matter how much Pepi or Show Sheen you spray on... there will be no depth or life to it. It is not a short cut - as with the idea that clipping would hide conformation faults (!) .... clipping does not hide a lack of good conditioning and grooming...

Oh well... as some seem to find fault with everything I post... I'll just drop off here for a while and let the people who are good to their horses and never abuse them (which apparently is not me - heh) carry on....

 

[Shasta]

Once again learning so much here! Thanks! In the big APHA horse world we don't normally body clip unless they are babies (usually harder to get rid of the coat) When clipping the face, legs, we use a 10 blade, normally clipping eye lashes (which do grow back quick) in the nose and around the eyes. I never thought I of it as abuse so this seems funny to read some of these posts. It seems a decision of the owner to me. What seems to be a big deal in the big halter horse world is the weight of the halter horse. It's taking time but the new halter horse isn't obess/fat but more in shape. Some judges still place that fat not fit halter horse but it seems to finely being taking a change for the better. Interesting topic for sure!