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Sorry Laurie, I didn't mean to imply that the stifle problem was caused by an injury, rather that I wondered if there was anything else going on as well - I'm not that good at saying what I mean when typing, probably because I 'woffle' too much! LOL!!
BriarwoodAcres
Well-Known Member
LOL Well after talking to the "guys" at the barn last night there will be a new shelter outside this weekend so we can leave some horses outside. Reno being one of them! Its suppose to be nice this week so we're putting them all back out at night!
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
That's brilliant and it will help a lot. I am going to be absolutely blunt, now (no change there, then)
I do not consider either of these horses to be stallion quality.
The buckskin is very nice (they are, actually, both of them, very nice) and he has good movement- I like good movement!- but he has a weak rear end, to my mind, and I have been breeding far too long to put up with that sort of thing- I started with basic, sound Shetland bred animals over thirty years ago and have been refining and upgrading ever since. First lesson: no matter how much you like a horse you have to be absolutely BRUTAL with your breeding stock- there is no way I will ever kick a horse out on the roadside just because it does not breed what I want but I WILL and do stop breeding from it.
The perfect horse has yet to be born but all my stallions have to be as near to the standard of perfection as is equinley possible. I love Rabbit more than any other horse in my life, he is 33 years old this year, I watched him born, BUT I have never kept a son of his as I have never had one that pushed all the buttons for me, there was always something ( twice now it has been as trivial as simply the wrong colour, but as quite a few people have said, a stallion must push ALL the buttons.) I have a grandson who is on a promise as he is still red based (which I do not want) but is such a stunning Appy pattern that I shall see how his foals look. I have also shown him and will keep doing so, with some success so he is proving himself all round.
Both of your horses push buttons for me as performance animals, specifically harness horses. Neither pushed any buttons as a stallion as there are just so many stallions already.
I would geld them both and look at using an outside stallion that is proven in the ring, and whose foals you can look at, so you get an idea of what they would do with your mares.
I do not consider either of these horses to be stallion quality.
The buckskin is very nice (they are, actually, both of them, very nice) and he has good movement- I like good movement!- but he has a weak rear end, to my mind, and I have been breeding far too long to put up with that sort of thing- I started with basic, sound Shetland bred animals over thirty years ago and have been refining and upgrading ever since. First lesson: no matter how much you like a horse you have to be absolutely BRUTAL with your breeding stock- there is no way I will ever kick a horse out on the roadside just because it does not breed what I want but I WILL and do stop breeding from it.
The perfect horse has yet to be born but all my stallions have to be as near to the standard of perfection as is equinley possible. I love Rabbit more than any other horse in my life, he is 33 years old this year, I watched him born, BUT I have never kept a son of his as I have never had one that pushed all the buttons for me, there was always something ( twice now it has been as trivial as simply the wrong colour, but as quite a few people have said, a stallion must push ALL the buttons.) I have a grandson who is on a promise as he is still red based (which I do not want) but is such a stunning Appy pattern that I shall see how his foals look. I have also shown him and will keep doing so, with some success so he is proving himself all round.
Both of your horses push buttons for me as performance animals, specifically harness horses. Neither pushed any buttons as a stallion as there are just so many stallions already.
I would geld them both and look at using an outside stallion that is proven in the ring, and whose foals you can look at, so you get an idea of what they would do with your mares.
disneyhorse
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Stifle problems are so difficult because they come and go. Long periods of nothing and then you either see the horse lock or pop... Or sometimes in a dry lot you can see drag marks in the dirt.
Any colt can seem "stallion quality" to someone... But it's better to be strict in qualifications. Just having a talent like movement does not cancel out other needs. Stallions should have EVERYTHING, not just "good except for head" or "great movement but not great legs"....
It is never a bad decision to geld!
Any colt can seem "stallion quality" to someone... But it's better to be strict in qualifications. Just having a talent like movement does not cancel out other needs. Stallions should have EVERYTHING, not just "good except for head" or "great movement but not great legs"....
It is never a bad decision to geld!
BriarwoodAcres
Well-Known Member
So how to do pick which is "stallion quality" and whats not? I've peeked through a few of the members sites and I dont care for some of the stallions they have. So how do you tell?
No problem AnnaC- I know it's very hard to have a typed conversation come across like a spoken one, lol
How to pick what is stallion quality... now there's a question for you. I guess you could say that it depends on what you are breeding for? Leaning more towards driving or halter? I would have to say that disposition and correctness should never be compromised, however, if I had an utterly fantastic horse except for it's ears were a little large, or some minor thing- as Jane said- no perfect horse has ever been born and you will always find fault with all of them. Soundness though is another huge thing, as that reflects a lot about whether their conformation is right.
If it's a horse that has already sired some foals- is he consistant? Does he out produce himself? Etc.....
I am sure others will chime in, there are just too many different points to think about here when picking a stallion.
How to pick what is stallion quality... now there's a question for you. I guess you could say that it depends on what you are breeding for? Leaning more towards driving or halter? I would have to say that disposition and correctness should never be compromised, however, if I had an utterly fantastic horse except for it's ears were a little large, or some minor thing- as Jane said- no perfect horse has ever been born and you will always find fault with all of them. Soundness though is another huge thing, as that reflects a lot about whether their conformation is right.
If it's a horse that has already sired some foals- is he consistant? Does he out produce himself? Etc.....
I am sure others will chime in, there are just too many different points to think about here when picking a stallion.
I am so very sorry this has happened to you. Your boys are still cute and you can still enjoy them. I do agree with most of what has been said. You're going through the school of hard knocks and we've all been there. My very good friend always has such integrity about her stock. She says that if any colt is born on her farm and is not 100% phenomenal, its gelded and she doesn't hesitate to call in the gelding bus. . Good words from a superb breeder. I suggest you enlist a mentor before you make another purchase. Best wishes to you.
BriarwoodAcres
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I am not apposed to gelding, but if thats what happens., they wont be kept.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I think they are both worth keeping, just not as stallions. My senior gelding is a super duper boy, he has one tiny (MAJOR) flaw that I will not discuss on an open forum (I'm not often like that but there is a very good reason for saying that) so he was gelded. I like him better, actually, now, than I did before he was gelded. He is still a major pain in the posterior but he is never going anywhere.
I like my boys and a stallion is just a gelding with appendages, after all.....
I like my boys and a stallion is just a gelding with appendages, after all.....
BriarwoodAcres
Well-Known Member
Jane I agree with you. But, I wont be able to keep both. its just not possible. I already have one other stallion as well. I only need 2 and there is no room for a gelding right now.
BriarwoodAcres
Well-Known Member
Update: I'd had Reno checked by the vet and he declared stifle lock. This makes me absolutely SICK to my stocmache as I've gotten very attached to Reno. I love this horse dearly. Obviously I know he will never be more then just a pet as this could be passed on.
I had spoken to Robin at LKF and she told me to bring him back. She offered me a trade on something else. I thank them for this option very much. It aches my heavy heart to do this but I think its whats best for my breeding program as I have no room for a gelding right now with limited space. I just dont see how he could have went from not a problem with it when I bought him to stifle lock?
I dont know the right thing for Reno to do. I am so sick over this situation.
I had spoken to Robin at LKF and she told me to bring him back. She offered me a trade on something else. I thank them for this option very much. It aches my heavy heart to do this but I think its whats best for my breeding program as I have no room for a gelding right now with limited space. I just dont see how he could have went from not a problem with it when I bought him to stifle lock?
I dont know the right thing for Reno to do. I am so sick over this situation.
Rhondaalaska
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I am so sorry that this happened to you. But you have to do what you think is best for you and Reno
BriarwoodAcres
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Thanks, I feel like i've been kicked in the gut though.
disneyhorse
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I would suggest a trade would be the best option, as you'd get a second chance to try another horse. I feel stifle lock is genetic and shouldn't be passed on.
BriarwoodAcres
Well-Known Member
Disney I think it is genetic.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
As to how it happened overnight....let me tell you a story!
I had a mare, completely locked in both stifles and bred.(Long story, not my mare!)
She was the worst I had ever seen, and looking at her hocks you could see exactly why the stifles were slipping and locking, the angles were such that there could have been almost no "groove" to help keep the stifles in place.
Anyway, fast forward to her incredibly beautiful, Black Dun based blanket colt, that I ran on. At exactly one year old, almost on his birthday, I heard him start to "click" in one stifle, the next week it was both and two weeks roughly, after that he was locking up in one and then the other stifle. Of course I had been expecting it, which was why I would not allow him to be sold as a foal. He was gelded and given as a companion to a mare I sold on condition that he was operated on. The mare had been bred again, and then I threw a major wobbly (that I should have done two years before) and the upshot was the mare was given to me, I found her a home and she is happy pulling a cart and not having any more babies.
But, although I had expected the colt to be stifled, when he "went" he went almost overnight. Had I not expected it, ie had he come from sound stock, it would have looked just like your colt, and I would have been asking the same questions as you- how could it happen overnight?
Well, the answer seems to be that it almost always does happen overnight, sometimes quite literally, to the extent where the new owner is sure the horse must have injured itself (cast, caught on the fence etc).
Since you got him form a "big Name" farm, and we all know and love these people, everyone is being very polite about it all, so the next time someone starts saying "They MUST have known before they sold it to me, these people are nothing short of crooks" perhaps we could all remember this thread??
Very often it actually is NOT possible to tell before the animal starts locking out- the only time I would "blame" the seller is if the animal was locking before it was sold and the buyers were told, erroneously, that the animal would grow out of it.
And I apologise for the lecture- I know you are not blaming the seller and I think they are doing what any conscientious breeder should do, under these circumstances.
I had a mare, completely locked in both stifles and bred.(Long story, not my mare!)
She was the worst I had ever seen, and looking at her hocks you could see exactly why the stifles were slipping and locking, the angles were such that there could have been almost no "groove" to help keep the stifles in place.
Anyway, fast forward to her incredibly beautiful, Black Dun based blanket colt, that I ran on. At exactly one year old, almost on his birthday, I heard him start to "click" in one stifle, the next week it was both and two weeks roughly, after that he was locking up in one and then the other stifle. Of course I had been expecting it, which was why I would not allow him to be sold as a foal. He was gelded and given as a companion to a mare I sold on condition that he was operated on. The mare had been bred again, and then I threw a major wobbly (that I should have done two years before) and the upshot was the mare was given to me, I found her a home and she is happy pulling a cart and not having any more babies.
But, although I had expected the colt to be stifled, when he "went" he went almost overnight. Had I not expected it, ie had he come from sound stock, it would have looked just like your colt, and I would have been asking the same questions as you- how could it happen overnight?
Well, the answer seems to be that it almost always does happen overnight, sometimes quite literally, to the extent where the new owner is sure the horse must have injured itself (cast, caught on the fence etc).
Since you got him form a "big Name" farm, and we all know and love these people, everyone is being very polite about it all, so the next time someone starts saying "They MUST have known before they sold it to me, these people are nothing short of crooks" perhaps we could all remember this thread??
Very often it actually is NOT possible to tell before the animal starts locking out- the only time I would "blame" the seller is if the animal was locking before it was sold and the buyers were told, erroneously, that the animal would grow out of it.
And I apologise for the lecture- I know you are not blaming the seller and I think they are doing what any conscientious breeder should do, under these circumstances.
Crabtree Farm
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Are you planning on returning him?
If not, is this the same horse listed on the Lil Beginning sales page?
If not, is this the same horse listed on the Lil Beginning sales page?
Carolyn R
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If they are willing to stand behind their horse and are being gracious enough to accept a return/exchange, then I would politely accept their offer. Hopefully he will be gelded and surgery will be done, or he will be placed in a home that will do the surgery. You can carry on with your decision to raise a stallion prospect for your breeding herd. You can't ask for a much better offer.
