overpopulation

[Charley]

Random thought - hesitating to post - but here goes.

The real angels are the ones who love their minis for the little horses that they are....not for what they could get by breeding. The real angels are the ones who love each of their minis enough to find room for one more or pass on another mini so that they can continue to care for the minis that they have....continuing to provide adequate shelter and adequate food and regualr farrier and vet visits. The real angels rescue for the love of the miniature horse anonomously, not for the attention they get by letting others know what they do. And I am sure the real angels would tell you that they get more in return than they give.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well I have also read this entire thread and in defense of the statements Matt has made in many instances in our area it is not easy to find quality miniatures period. Most breeders here are able to sell whatever they want to sell. At least if they are breeding quality and dont overprice their horses. We are NOT overpopulated here yet and the breeders I know well in this state for the most part are responsible and are breeding for the betterment of the breed. What they can afford to bring into the state may be far different from what others can find right next door. I think it is very frustrating to many who would like better quality horses that the expense of bringing horses here is expensive There are always extra charges to come this far north. We are NOT on the regular trip route. It can be done but it takes work and money and often the help of other horse people. We do not have miniature breeders at least not yet that have 100's of minis to choose from. So often this whole discussion is confusing to anyone who lives here. There is not a mini on every corner and I hope there never will be.

If this is true, and I have no reason to think it is not, then NONE of Matt's original statement has any bearing or relevance to the rest of the Mini world or to more than two or three people on this board.

We have all been defending absolutely NOTHING!!!

What a waste of time.

Please do not do this again without first explaining in detail all the circumstances involved.

 

[Katiean]

Matt was expressing an opinion...Are you saying don't have an opinion? or just don't post your opinion if others aren't going to like it?

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I do think that our area of the Northeast is unique in that most of us who are serious about quality miniatures are bringing them in from other parts of the country even those who have been breeding for years got their original stock from elsewhere. When we started in miniatures 7 years ago they were and for the most part still are a novelty though there are more now than a few years ago. We still get many visitors who have never seen a miniature horse other than on the internet or TV. I think the biggest herd at least that I know of in this state is 25 or less so even I sometimes have trouble finding the relevance of some of the overpopulation posts. What all of you consider quality animals there are perhaps 250 statewide. Hard for many of you to believe I know but it is true,unless there is a breeder somewhere that I dont know of. I probably should have responded sooner but was interested to read all the different takes on the subject. If I am wrong on the numbers I invite other Mainers who would know to respond and correct me.

 

[maestoso]

The thread holds a lot of relevance, regardless of the opinion that you hold. I guess if you have a hard time looking at several topics at once, then this thread might seem pointless, because a lot of different ideas and topics are being thrown in. Yes, the posts have swayed slightly from my original point, but I think all the points posted are worth reading.

 

[nootka]

If I were you, then, I would get together with a few reputable people, or even myself, and pool my resources.

Find one amazing mare, or two, or even two or three good mares (just don't go to poor quality for any reason, not even if you get three times as many), and hopefully one or more of them will be bred by a nice stallion (but don't count on this, as we know, being pregnant at one point is no guarantee of getting ANY foal).

Then look around for a nice stallion. Believe me, if someone had wanted my Pyro for something like that, I would have let him go intact, and he's perfectly ok to do so. Other than slightly toeing out, he's really better than many stallions (evidenced by his titles he took against older stallions as a foal, as well as common sense). I would have sold him reasonably to someone like that looking to improve the breed in their area, and I KNOW I'm not alone. I have seen gorgeous colts from Nationally titled stock, as well they are correct, for right around $1000 or even less in some cases!

Then you would have a basis to begin a breeding program of superior stock where people would be LINING UP to reserve your foals, regardless of gender. Even if they were "ok" quality, you would still be ahead of the game for price more so than we are, here.

It is just so hard for us to imagine an area where someone would pay those prices for something that is not show quality and/or has a recored behind them. Maybe for a person who doesn't know any better, seeking a particular "rare" color or some other line a sales person is giving them, but on average, it is HARD to sell even a well-bred, correct and show quality young horse. Hardest of all if it's a male, and impossible if they're already gelded.

L.

 

[Buckskin gal]

You are very lucky to not have a mini on every corner in your part of the country. I think I would want to keep it that way also.

Mary

Well I have also read this entire thread and in defense of the statements Matt has made in many instances in our area it is not easy to find quality miniatures period. Most breeders here are able to sell whatever they want to sell. At least if they are breeding quality and dont overprice their horses. We are NOT overpopulated here yet and the breeders I know well in this state for the most part are responsible and are breeding for the betterment of the breed. What they can afford to bring into the state may be far different from what others can find right next door. I think it is very frustrating to many who would like better quality horses that the expense of bringing horses here is expensive There are always extra charges to come this far north. We are NOT on the regualr trip route. It can be done but it takes work and money and often the help of other horse people. We do not have miniature breeders at least not yet that heve 100's of minis to choose from. So often this whole discussion is confusing to anyone who lives here. There is not a mini on every corner and I hope there never will be.

 

[maestoso]

Nootka, I am not sure who you were responding to, but I think it was me.

The thing is, I have no intention of starting a breeding program. I have one colt, who I may or may not use for breeding, but I won't be gelding him, because I prefer the extra attitude that comes with a stud, and if I choose to use him for breeding 5 or 10 years from now, I have that option. I paid good money for him and he will be a show horse. He was bred by a reputable breeder, his dam holds several world top tens, and his sire is a roan range son. If I DO breed, it will be to registered sound mares, with the intention of producing show quality offspring.

I am fairly experienced, and am surrounded by people with experience that far outstretches mine.

The thing is, that is just the direction that I choose to go.

The goal should ALWAYS be sound and functional, and to do that you need to breed sound and functional horses. But I don't believe that the goal always has to be BETTER BETTER BETTER.

The thing is, if you eliminate the good pet breeding, eventually, reasonably priced horses will be hard to find. Not tomorrow or even next year, but within some time, it would turn out that way. Because as I said before, the "pets" that are born from quality horses, CANNOT meet the demand of the vast amount of people who just want good pets.

But pet breeding isn't hurting YOUR program. Because YOU can still choose to breed to show quality if that is what you want. Your horse can't acquire faults just because their is a pet horse in a pasture down the street. You can dictate your own breeding program. The only thing that changes is that people can buy pet horses for pet prices instead of buying your show horses for show horse prices. Its great for you to say that you have no problem keeping a horse if you can't get the money you want for it, but that still leaves the interested buyer horseless. And that's where pet breeding(sound pets) has its place.

 

[Katiean]

The thing I see is a limiting of the gene pool. I see people saying only offspring from top studs should be bred. I see buckaroo this Bond that and these are our top studs in the opinion of a lot of people. If we only breed in these lines and concentrate the blood we are going to end up with problems. People almost did away with the Blue Eyed White Netherland Dwarf rabbit that way. You do have to have outside blood to keep your blood lines fresh. Sometimes you might have to breed to a lessor quality ( but sound) and then rebuild rather than lose what we have.

 

[Jill]

The thing is, I have no intention of starting a breeding program. I have one colt, who I may or may not use for breeding, but I won't be gelding him, because I prefer the extra attitude that comes with a stud, and if I choose to use him for breeding 5 or 10 years from now, I have that option.

Leaving a stallion a stallion even if not to breed for the sake of the extra attitude OH!

I have a few geldings you should meet and they've got tons of attitude, fire, spunk, and everything EXCEPT those little decorations between their hind legs. I figure that their less frustrated existence and ability to socialize with my other horses justified that sacrifice.

 

[nightflight]

Final post, then I'm outta this topic...

The goal should ALWAYS be sound and functional, and to do that you need to breed sound and functional horses. But I don't believe that the goal always has to be BETTER BETTER BETTER.

I honestly don't know about this. Would you really want to purchase a horse from a breeder who thought "good enough" or would who want to go to someone who did the best they could? Did they really make a decision to try NOT to do better, or is it just a matter of not knowing any better? How can you tell?

In truth, most show breeders are not going to be producing the next AMHA World Champion of Champions, even if we would like to. By always going for better, better, better most are going to end up with a few stars and a lot of those sound horses - at least until we've paid our dues and really learned how to do what we want to.

I think I could get behind the for sound and functional only thought if we were a different breed - like QH's where there is a world of difference between the halter winners and the using horses. But with the mins? The horses from twenty years ago, while cute as a button, were not as a whole what many would consider functional and athletic. There were dumplings with legs. When I look at the build of the average mini horse I still think that we have a way to go before that average is really functional enough to do anything you wanted to with it - and stay sound.

It would be a shame if only those breeders who had the ability to breed that next World Champion of Champions kept trying for better horses, and everyone else just stuck with good enough. It's that overall rise in quality and having so many people trying for the best that has made those sound and athletic horses that would have gone for $10,000 twenty years ago affordable as family pets today.

 

[Buckskin gal]

What difference should it make to another person if someone else wants to leave their horse ungelded? If he isn't used for breeding,[or even if he is] if the owner loves his disposition and he paid for him why shouldn't the person have the right to leave things as he likes them? It was that persons money that paid for the horse and he/she was buying what he/she wanted and shouldn't have to buy or do what someone else wanted. Just too many double standards with some people is how it appears. I too have 3 stallions here and love them just the way they are...sane and sensible and very trainable. [some of you who think all stallions are a pain haven't probably seen the wonderful dispositions some lines produce in not only mares but also stallions. They also can be trained just as a gelding can be trained in our experiences]] We have no problems in driving them, they don't have a fit when at parades or other functions if there happens to be a mare in heat. Will I ever geld any of them...maybe so, but it will be because of my choice not somebody telling me to do it. They do not act frustrated as some one elses stallion may act. Now, If they were a pain in the butt I just might choose to geld them but they aren't and no one needs to be telling me my stallions would be happier when anyone that knows them, knows they act pretty darn happy. I paid for them, I pay their bills and so if someone else wants to do that then they can tell me what to do with them. No person knows it all nor do they always know what they are talking about so geld your stallions if that is what YOU want to do but don't turn around and say it was too good to geld after saying there is no stallion so perfect that it wouldn't make a good gelding.....and if this doesn't apply to you than that is all wonderful and good. Am I angry...no, just giving my opinion.

Mary

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I do think that our area of the Northeast is unique in that most of us who are serious about quality miniatures are bringing them in from other parts of the country even those who have been breeding for years got their original stock from elsewhere. When we started in miniatures 7 years ago they were and for the most part still are a novelty though there are more now than a few years ago. We still get many visitors who have never seen a miniature horse other than on the Internet or TV. I think the biggest herd at least that I know of in this state is 25 or less so even I sometimes have trouble finding the relevance of some of the overpopulation posts. What all of you consider quality animals there are perhaps 250 statewide. Hard for many of you to believe I know but it is true,unless there is a breeder somewhere that I dont know of. I probably should have responded sooner but was interested to read all the different takes on the subject. If I am wrong on the numbers I invite other Mainers who would know to respond and correct me.

I completely understand, and this is basically what the thread title should have been about, and not Minis in general, all over the country!!!

 

[Jill]

Sorry, Mary. I'm not interested in debating or exchanging ideas back and forth with you. Every time I've tried, you get upset. I think my statement was easy to understand and it's totally fine if you don't agree.

 

[Buckskin gal]

And who said I wanted to debate with you or who said what I wrote was meant for you? Aren't you taking things a little personally when it isn't meant to be personal? I really have no idea what you are referring to OH! Everything just isn't about you even though you may think it is.

Sorry, Mary. I'm not interested in debating or exchanging ideas back and forth with you. Every time I've tried, you get upset. I think my statement was easy to understand and it's totally fine if you don't agree.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The goal should ALWAYS be sound and functional, and to do that you need to breed sound and functional horses. But I don't believe that the goal always has to be BETTER BETTER BETTER

Sorry, but if you are truly interested in breeding a specific breed of anything at all there is NO other goal.

Of course the goal has always to breed a better animal- what other possible purpose could there be, what other possible goal??

I'm sorry, you have lost me completely now.

You are not willing to actually do this yourself but you seem to think that the serious breeders, whop wish nothing more than to better the breed and to enjoy themselves thoroughly along the way, are elitist because they have goals that do not involve the equine equivalent of cheap, affordable housing??

I am NOT a government funded charity, I am a horse breeder!!

My ONLY goal is to better the breed, in every and in all ways that I possibly can.

If you want a cheap pet go and help out CMHR- they have seven "Christmas Horses" on their books and I know that "transport chains" have been set up more than once.

 

[Jill]

I agree, Jane (Rabbit)! If there wasn't a goal of producing better and better, and if it were not a challange, I wouldn't even want to try

 

[maestoso]

Well I am sorry to you rabbitsfizz, because if you honestly believe that your goal is the ONLY goal, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. You should also be aware that with that attitude and tone, it is unlikely that anyone will want to hear what you have to say. You might try some humbleness.

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I had a response all typed and lost it but the thing that fires most people up is when anyone tries to tell them what they should do with their own horses no one enjoys that. But Matt that said I have to disagree with your statement about Better. Of course we are trying to breed better and better without that ethic why would you breed at all? You said your hope is to eventually have show horses what I think is that you too will want better and better unless you are taking first place every time out. Why wouldnt you want to have something that does better? As for gelding we have stallions here who breed and some that dont we also have gelded when we thought we should as you will do. I really think a posters reaction is more to being told their horses are junk but others think theirs are elite when you have decided on a breeding stallion no one wants to hear that that choice was junk and should be gelded particularly if they have done research and have the type of stallion that they like. I have a yearling stallion here right now that may or may not be gelded he is a bit loony right now and if it continues this spring after training there is no question that he will be gelded but his brother was also loony as a yearling and now has settled and is a joy to be around. I would not have wanted anyone telling me to geld my herdsire and truthfully feel that this is what fires people up. I am for gelding what I decide should be gelded or if there are major flaws but I dont want someone else telling me what to do. I can sympathiize with those of you who live in areas where there are 1000 miniatures in a 100 mile radias and am very thankful that that is not the case here. But as I said there are not farms here with 200 miniatures only backyard breeders for the most part 2- 10 mares at most and I think that is why our market is not oversaturated and as I said before I hope it stays that way.

 

[maestoso]

When people are responding to my post, they make it seem as though what I said was that the goal should be to breed worse and worse, which is not what I said at all, not even close. There is nothing wrong with a sound functional pet, and there is nothing wrong with reproducing sound functional pets.

If you have a mare and stud that are happy and sound, and perform what you want them to, weather it be driving or whatever, but they have a fault here and there, so they are not cut out to be a halter show horse, there is nothing wrong with reproducing them. Likely, you will reproduce something similar, a sound, functional, pet. You might get something worse or you might get something better(the gamble that EVERYONE here would agree on).

If you have a mare and stud, but there is a better stud down the road, you dont HAVE to go down the road and use the better stud, as long as yours is sound and healthy.