overpopulation

[Jill]

If you have a mare and stud, but there is a better stud down the road, you dont HAVE to go down the road and use the better stud, as long as yours is sound and healthy.

No one HAS to do anything, including refraining from breeding poor quality. By striving to breed for pet quality animals, you've set the bar lower than I would set it for my own program. But, then who are you to say someone else can't breed for unsound animals? It may be worse than breeding pet quality, but why is it okay for you to do what many would not, but not okay for others to do what you would not?

 

[tagalong]

Well I am sorry to you rabbitsfizz, because if you honestly believe that your goal is the ONLY goal, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. You should also be aware that with that attitude and tone, it is unlikely that anyone will want to hear what you have to say. You might try some humbleness.

Matt - I have stayed out of the last few pages of this thread in part because of your at times rather condescending and contemptuous tone - as noted above. The goal of dedicated breeders should always be to improve - the only time money is the ONLY factor IMO is the way some are breeding to sell whatever they get as cute pets - and anything else is not considered. If it is cute... and cheap - sell it. Oh - a pretty colour will help.

If you have a mare and stud, but there is a better stud down the road, you dont HAVE to go down the road and use the better stud, as long as yours is sound and healthy.

If you had a better stallion available just down the road - one that could IMPROVE on your mare... why not use him instead of the lesser stallion?? That makes more sense to me. And yes - breeding is always a gamble - so why not seek to improve your odds instead of settling for whatever...

Sadly, sadly mistaken, huh .... well I have worked in the horse industry for 20 years - not owned my own place or had my own herd - but worked for others - in a variety of disciplines and breeds. As such I have a different take on things - from the inside without being "involved" in the ownership etc. And the aim was ALWAYS to improve and get better and better. Along the way, sometimes horses sold for $$$$$$$$$$$$ - and sometimes only $$$ or $. And every one of the breeders/farms I have worked for had "pets" (if you can call a 16.3 HH Warmblood a pet) that fell short of the Better And Better goal - and thus sold for much less and found excellent, screened homes...

In all these years - and the years before that when I worked part-time.... I never foaled out a baby and had the owners immediately speculate how much they could get for him/her. Better? was the question and the main consideration - not $$$$$$$$$$$$$?!!?

If the goal was not to improve - than all the expense... all the headaches and heartaches... would be pointless - as at most levels you rarely get back what you put into any breeding program. Once in a while you might get a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that will help someone else improve on their breeding and/or shine as a stellar performance horse and an example of your breeding program. But those very expensive horses are rare - as most people in the horse industry know all too well...

 

[maestoso]

Why do people automatically associate "pet quality" with "poor quality"...?

 

[Jill]

BECAUSE Pet Quality is less than what is considered BREEDING quality.

Think about this -- Do dogs sold as "pet quality" come with AKC breeding rights? NO. But ones sold as breeding quality do.

 

[HGFarm]

For those that dont show because AMHA and AMHR is all of that political crap, etc..... ??!!

I would have several questions to ask about that. Have you ever shown with either registry? If so, what horse were you showing? How did it TRULY stack up against the others being shown?

Political? You might see some of that anywhere, but I will tell you that I am a nobody in the show ring. I cant afford a professional trainer, nor do I want one. I enjoy working with the horses myself- sort of a self satisfaction thing I guess.

I have done ok in the ring, even occasionally beating out those ones with a pro handler on the end of the lead and this year brought home a Top Ten (my very first placing ever) from Nationals this year. I show because I ENJOY it- not because I am out to beat the champions in the ring. If I can't consistantly beat them, should that mean I should just blame it on politics and stay home and not do what I truly love doing? I'm not in to cutting off my own nose to spite my face- I take it all as a learning experience for me and what I am doing in the ring (right and wrong) and also take a good hard look at what I am showing in there.

If folks in the dog world stopped breeding and spayed and neutered everything out there because there were too many and the market fell, there would soon be no more of that breed. Blame the puppy mills and just plain careless backyard breeders who breed that female every heat because they can pocket a few bucks, or dont look at the quality of what they are breeding -because Elsa is just wonderful with the kids she should have pups. This is a big contributor as to how and why the market does get flooded and the QUALITY goes down.

It is hard enough, trying to breed the best to the best and get decent offspring, it does not help when folks are breeding less than correct and healthy to each other, and expecting something marketable.

For those that just want to have fun with their pets? There are PLENTY of animals out there needing good homes that are affordable and of decent quality from great parents, without breeding crappy to crappy to make another one.

 

[tagalong]

Why do people automatically associate "pet quality" with "poor quality"...?

Where did I do that?

Pet quality is not always, necessarily poor - although as I said pages ago that one webaite breeding for pet minis had poor quality mares. And the stallion was not much better. By simple form to function considerations - not just my wanting to see a specific "type" ... but again - the colour was the most important factor. And "pet".

As I also said pages ago - we have sold/given away "pets" to good homes that were of excellent quality... even some who had had VERY successful show campaigns. And now they are happy, loved pets. Who could easily still show well - but they have a different life.

The 16.3 HH Warmblood gelding I used as an example was not of poor quality - he was just not indicative of the Better and Better goal. There was nothing at all wrong with that particular individual - he was just not Better than his sire. And he (and many of his relatives) went on to successful, talented careers - and happy lives.

ETA:

Think about this -- Do dogs sold as "pet quality" come with AKC breeding rights? NO. But ones sold as breeding quality do.

Unfortunately, Jill... even many sold as breeding quality - by breeders who do not really care about Better - shoudl not be bred. But yes - every purebred dog I have had was sold as Pet Quality/Non-breeding - and I would not have dealt with any breeder who did anything less... or who showed little concern for Better.

 

[Mona]

BECAUSE Pet Quality is less than what is considered BREEDING quality.

Think about this -- Do dogs sold as "pet quality" come with AKC breeding rights? NO. But ones sold as breeding quality do.

Sorry, but that statement in and of itself is NOT true. Papers do not senote the quality of a dog. Many breeders sell top show quality dogs on non-breeding/limited registration. Not because they are not worthy of reproducing, but because they would rather see their dog in a good pet home rather than to be used for breeding.

On the other end of that spectrum, there are millions of very, VERY poor quality dogs, some even non-purebred being sold as breeders, WITH papers!

Pets do not mean they are of poor quality. A person can raise quality, well conformed horses as pets.

 

[maestoso]

Well I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons you wouldn't breed a horse, but that doesn't always mean it is poor quality. I get the impression many people think that there are only two types of horses, those that you would breed and show, those are the good quality horses, and those that you wouldn't breed or show, those are the poor quality......

I see the spectrum much wider than that, with many more options at the different levels, depending on what you want out of a horse.

And to me, dogs aren't a great example. My family dog was a mut, which cost about $100. We could never have afforded a purebred with the much higher price tag. Lots of people breed for pet dogs. I don't know any family that has a "show" dog, and very few that have purebreds, most have muts. Friendly family dogs....

And to answer your question, because I don't know anyone in the dog show business, and very few with purebreds, I know nothing bout the AKC or which dogs come with papers, etc.

 

[Katiean]

BIG farms will breed 20,30 and even more mares to get that show string. Most of those foals do not make it into their show string for what ever reason. It is My opinion that what others are saying is that the small guy that breeds 1 or 2 mares and may or may not get a show foal (just because he only has 1 or 2 mares) is the problem. I think (JMO) what can be brought from this thread is most posters (and don't hang me for my opinion) think that the big farms dumping all the sound but not show foals on the market are blameless in this because it is the way THEY make their money. Well, No matter how hard you try you do not get a show foal (or better horse) from the same mare and stud every time. These foals then flood the market. I don't see how you can say that the little guy is ruining the breed because he is breeding the best he has access to. I do not know anyone that can afford $1,000 stud fee. And if that is what constitutes a responsible breeder Than count me out of that catagory. Personally, I did not breed for next year and might not breed for 09. But I won't be spending more than $500 for a stud fee. I will find the best I can afford. I will look for what goes best with my mare. But, it may or may not be better then what I have now. I do not like to sell my horses because I can not be sure I was right in approving a home for my horse. That being said, I think we need to make a bit of room for the small guy and quit figuring he is breeding just to get the foal crop to sell and does not know what he is doing just because he only has a couple. I think this year especially, look at the deminishing open spaces, cost of feed, cost of just living, the number of homes getting reposesed (not because they don't have jobs. intrest went up). There are a lot of reasons for the number of horses on the market. It isn't because of 1 or 2 foals. It isn't because I did not geld my stud. If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.

 

[Mona]

Also, I want to add, that I feel that sometimes people get lost, or blinded by a famous stallion, and they think that every foal sired by that horse should remain "whole" I strongly disagree and feel that just because a horse (stallion, specifically) is so well known, so successful in both the breeding barn and show ring, this does not make every single one of his foals worthy or breeding.

Take Buckeroo for example...this is a GORGEOUS stallion, that has proven his worth over and over as a major contributor to the betterment of the Miniature Horse Breed as a whole, yet of his 324 reg'd offspring as shown in the AMHA online studbook, there were 164 MALE offspring, of which only 2, yes TWO of those are reg'd as geldings!! I know he is a darned good stallion, but I also feel that people get on the bandwagon buying horses with maybe less than desireable conformation because they are a direct son or daughter of such a famous stallion,(not just Buckeroo, but all stallions in general, I just picked him because he is well known) and they are more willing to overlook more conformation flaws in those particular offspring that they may not overlook if it were the same horse of a different or even unknown bloodline. So I just don't get it why some people do that?? If a horse has copnformation faults, it should not matter what bloodline he is from, or who is parents are. If you would not use that horse for breeding if it was one found out in someones back yard, then you should not use it no matter what.

That at least, is MY opinion. I just feel that this happens far too often.

 

[tagalong]

Well I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons you wouldn't breed a horse, but that doesn't always mean it is poor quality.

But why breed anything that is of poor quality?? Why?

I get the impression many people think that there are only two types of horses, those that you would breed and show, those are the good quality horses, and those that you wouldn't breed or show, those are the poor quality......

Not true. No one said anything of the sort.

I see the spectrum much wider than that, with many more options at the different levels, depending on what you want out of a horse.

\
The spectrum is wider - as many of us have been trying to tell you. And yet again the question remains - why deliberately use some lesser quality breeding stock and make that spectrum narrower? A horse does not have to be shown to be of quality. But lack of quality - as many of us have seen - does not need to passed on to make $$$$$ in the "pet" market.

Any old Lab was bred to any old Standard Poodle to get in on that Labradoodle craze. Puppies were selling for thousands - so some said QUICK - let's get some of that cash!! And quality be d.a.m.n.ed... and so it was. A recent rescue in the PNW had to deal with over 40 Labradoodles and Goldendoodles.... the "breeder" was POed that the "market" had fallen and simply dumped all her "beloved" dogs... uh huh.

Better? No. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?? You bet.

And to me, dogs aren't a great example. My family dog was a mut, which cost about $100. We could never have afforded a purebred with the much higher price tag. Lots of people breed for pet dogs.I don't know any family that has a "show" dog, and very few that have purebreds, most have muts. Friendly family dogs....

Well imagine this - purebreds can be - and are - family friendly dogs as well. I have had both.

I do dog sports - flyball, agility... and mutts race alongside the purebreds.

Cockapoos are "mutts" and yet I saw puppies selling for $1200...

And thus puppy mills - breeding only for PETS and the almighty $ - came to be.

If a horse has copnformation faults, it should not matter what bloodline he is from, or who is parents are. If you would not use that horse for breeding if it was one found out in someones back yard, then you should not use it no matter what.
That at least, is MY opinion. I just feel that this happens far too often.

Yes it does, Mona - I agree.

 

[maestoso]

Katiean, thank you for your post. You articulated precisely what I was trying to say, in a much better way!

Nice to know I am not the only one who feels this way.

And tagalong, I NEVER suggested breeding "poor" quality, as I DON"T consider the functional family pet, that makes a great driving horse, or cleans up in the local performance classes, "poor" quality.

And to answer your question rabbitsizz, I don't see "mediocre" classes at horse shows, but not everyone has a mini for the purpose of showing. In fact, Mini owners who DO show at those type of show are the MINORITY in the world of mini horse owners.

 

[misfitminis]

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well I am sorry to you rabbitsfizz, because if you honestly believe that your goal is the ONLY goal, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. You should also be aware that with that attitude and tone, it is unlikely that anyone will want to hear what you have to say. You might try some humbleness.

It is not my statement- there is absolutely nothing new or mind boggling about a statement as simple as this!!

It is the one thing that binds all enthusiasts of any living thing together.

When did you last attend a show in which there was a class for mediocre animals???

The only goal of breeding anything is to produce the best possible example of that "whatever" that you possibly can.

That is as simple as I can make it- Rose breeders, Bee Keepers, Dog Breeders, anyone who breeds should have the betterment and furtherment of the breed at heart - otherwise they are "puppy mills" and worse.

So why would you want to breed mediocre animals when it costs as much as breeding really top class ones, unless simply because, by buying two mediocre animals and shoving them in a field together and not bothering with any of the care those hifaluting show animals need, you can make money (and since you have already stated you are not breeding you can see this is NOT a personal attack!!)

Surely you can understand, by the number of times you have had it explained by various people , that since the rest of the country is snowed under with $40.00 foals going through auctions, breeding for less than the very best would appear to be pointless??

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

There are a lot of reasons for the number of horses on the market. It isn't because of 1 or 2 foals. It isn't because I did not geld my stud. If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.

Breeding should not be for everyone if you think about it. Having nothing to do with money but with those dedicated, willing to lose a horse to gain one and hope it is better then the parents. When it goes great it is wonderful when it doesnt it is a gruesome site that you cant get out of your mind for years if even then.

I have heard well I cant afford to geld - well if you cant afford to geld then you cant afford to breed a vet call for a dystocia and perhaps losing a mare and or foal is way more expensive then gelding.

I always hear it is the big breeders not those of us breeding 1-2 foals a year well HELLO all it takes is a few breeding 1-2 a year and you have now produced as much as a "large farm"

Bottom line is if you breed even one foal you are a breeder and if you breed even one foal the reality while it isnt pretty is that you are contributing to the over population of horses.

And before anyone gets panties in a bunch I am including myself in that and due to that have decieded to no longer breed at least not any time in the near future.

 

[tagalong]

And tagalong, I NEVER suggested breeding "poor" quality, as I DON"T consider the functional family pet, that makes a great driving horse, or cleans up in the local performance classes, "poor" quality.

And yet AGAIN I have to repeat the POOR quality We Supple Cute Colourful Foals For Pets farm that I have mentioned.

A great driving horse - that is poorly put together - should still not be bred IMO> And I can think of a stellar driving stallion who is a horror to look at standing still (and thus has never been in a halter class

) As far as I know - none of his get have had anything near his kind of success. Ergo - should he have been bred? No, IMO. He would be just as spectacular of a driving horse as a gelding with his movement - and the poor conformation he has passed on at times would have stopped with him.

Better should always be the bottom line. Better. Better conformation. Better form to function. Better performance.

Breed the best to the best... hope for the best... and drive the rest... or so some have said.

There is nothing wrong with having fun with minis in a variety of ways - but not seeing breeding as a goal for Better just makes me

...

Katjean... the amount of a stud fee is not the point. There may be good stallions out there breeding well for many small breeders. But they are of QUALITY.

Look at farm websites. I do not care what size of farm you have or how many foals you produce - when your goal is to breed ONLY for "mediocre" as that is what you are starting out with (or less - no matter what bloodlines or who the grandsire was) then you are doing the breed - and yourself - a disservice. Of course - breeding the best to the best does not guarantee the best... but if you start out with something of better quality your odds of winning that gamble increase. Breeding good to good - whether shown or not - gives you a far better chance of success than starting with poor to mediocre.

But now I am simply repeating myself... and at that point it is best to stop typing...

 

[Warpony]

If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.

Only if the only reason to own them is to breed.

This is the only breed I have ever been involved in where I have seen opinions like this, and it boggles my mind. I really do not understand it. In quarter horses or arabians or anything else no one would suggest that if someone can't have a stallion than that breed is only for the elite. BREEDING may only be for the "elite" in that case but that does not mean that it makes the entire breed only for the elite just because not everyone could have a stallion in their barn.

 

[Katiean]

So Lisa, YOU have the right to breed miniature Horses and I Don't because I am on a fixed income? Very interesting...

 

[user 488]

HUH?

 

[TriggynBluenDaisy Too]

There are a lot of reasons for the number of horses on the market. It isn't because of 1 or 2 foals. It isn't because I did not geld my stud. If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.

Breeding should not be for everyone if you think about it. Having nothing to do with money but with those dedicated, willing to lose a horse to gain one and hope it is better then the parents. When it goes great it is wonderful when it doesnt it is a gruesome site that you cant get out of your mind for years if even then.

I have heard well I cant afford to geld - well if you cant afford to geld then you cant afford to breed a vet call for a dystocia and perhaps losing a mare and or foal is way more expensive then gelding.

I always hear it is the big breeders not those of us breeding 1-2 foals a year well HELLO all it takes is a few breeding 1-2 a year and you have now produced as much as a "large farm"

Bottom line is if you breed even one foal you are a breeder and if you breed even one foal the reality while it isnt pretty is that you are contributing to the over population of horses.

And before anyone gets panties in a bunch I am including myself in that and due to that have decieded to no longer breed at least not any time in the near future.

Oh Lisa now just stop it! You are being sensible and coherent and I'll have none of that nonsense.