overpopulation

[maestoso]

If the breed is overpopulated, it is overpopulated . . . . . and IMO that means that the person who breeds one or two foals a year is just as at fault as the person who breeds 10 or 20. The person who is breeding quality horses is just as at fault as the person ho breeds pets. If you think that the problem is a big one(which I would say is more than 75% of this forum) then I'd say you should stop breeding all together. Because when you say "The breed is over populated, stop breeding so much" in one thread, and then "My mare is due this month" in another, that makes you a hypocrite, plain and simple! Its not exactly logical for you to preach to someone else not to breed, and then tell everyone about the pregnant mares you own.

IMO the problem is not that there are too many minis, so I have no problem with people breeding sound and healthy horses, keeping stallions, or selling for low prices.

I think the problem is owners who make bad choices and can't care for their animals, or owners that neglect or abuse their animals. That's why there are so many horses in shelters, that's why there are so many cruelty and neglect cases. Breeding less horses is not going to keep these people from owning minis, so the problem would still remain, even if you cut the equine population in half. What many people here anticipate as the result of less breeding is that all the good homes will still have their horses and the bad ones won't, the bad ones will be where the difference comes from. This just isn't true and makes no logical sense what soever.

Let's say everyone gelds, so now unfit owners don't have access to stallions to breed their unsound mares to, well they still want a horse. So instead of breeding one they buy a cheap pet mini or adopt from a shelter. Well they are still unfit owners, so now instead of breeding a mini and being an unfit owner they buy or adopt one, and now they bought or adopted one which will likely eventually end up back in a shelter or sold cheaply again, to another unfit owner.

It is not the mini horse that is overpopulated, it is the STUPID, UNEDUCATED, ABUSIVE, NEGLECTFUL, AND IGNORANT, owners that are overpopulated.

So instead of focusing all of the energy on telling good, responsible, homes that they shouldn't breed, why don't you focus that energy on using your knowledge and experience to help someone understand how to be more responsible, and how to give their minis a better home.

Irresponsible breeding is only a fraction of the problem and yet that is the only part anyone here seems to be focusing on, and they take it too far by telling good horse owners that they shouldn't breed because their horses are inferior.

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

A cowhocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?

 

[horsefeather]

Sorta, kinda agree with you Matt. However, lots of folks that sell horses 'try' and tell the newbies what needs to be done. Some listen....most don't. Let's just round up all the usless, and just plain mean people and do away with them!

BTW, we quit breeding a couple of years ago.

Pam

 

[Jill]

I'm not worried. Personally, I would not feel good if I were aiming to breed for "just" pet quality and I'm not planning to make people pay $5,000 for my foals, either. Starting with show quality stock doesn't guarantee show quality off spring, but it makes me optimistic about the future. People can and will do WHATEVER they want. I'm happy though to have planned for this long before putting this into place (my breeding program). If it took just a couple months to slap it together (both in reality and in thought), I'd be bored of it before it started.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Breeding show quality horses to show quality horses dosen't guarantee show quality foals, but its a heck of a better shot than breeding pet quality horses to pet quality horses and hoping for a show quality foal.

A cowhocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?

I have a cowhocked horse, who is long in the back, has an upside down neck, and a few other faults. Do I love him any less? absolutely not! But he is a gelding, because although I love the little guy, I dont think his faults should be passed on to any offspring.

I would prefer that every horse had a home that was responsible and well educated, and I try my best to educate people locally the best I can. However, I would much rather see an unfit home have a gelding or mare than a stallion.

Sure, there are some stallions that are sweet as pie and loving, but there are far more that aren't as easy going as a mare or gelding, especially when they are with less than great owners. At my state 4H show I saw a little girl showing a stud colt. This colt was rearing on his back legs at the girl. He wasnt just rearing, but challenging the little girl. Quite a few people laughed at it, but I didnt find it funny at all. Would those people have found it funny if that colt had broke that little girls nose, or knocked her teeth out? I doubt it.

A stallion no matter what size can get out of control, and can be dangerous. Not to say that mares or geldings can't, but stallion have plenty of extra hormones, and the unexperienced owner usually dosen't know how to handle them.

Another thing is that a gelding can't produce. A mare can produce 1 foal a year, and a stallion can procude MANY foals a year.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Irresponsible breeding is only a fraction of the problem and yet that is the only part anyone here seems to be focusing on, and they take it too far by telling good horse owners that they shouldn't breed because their horses are inferior.

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

A cowhocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?

Perhaps you should think about what you have said and consider another viewpoint......please rest assured that the majority of those on this forum do not feel a horse with a fault should not be loved, cared for and given a job. In fact, that is one of the things that is promoted. Nor do most of the forum members breed in huge quantity. But there is a general agreement that animals with known conformational issues should not be bred. They should be loved and put to their best use...be it driving, companion or pasture ornament.

The issues with attempting to breed better is not just about money. It is about the comfort and functionality of the animal that is produced. Why breed those with stifle issues??? Why continue to put out an animal that will have to suffer from this? Why breed those with crooked legs and off bites -- to pass those issues on to their offspring or grandget? These animals, bless their hearts, have an increased risk for pain, injury, health issues of various kind. Their quality of life can be considered compromised.

It is the integrity of the breeder that helps to channel the breed to better and healthier production. It is the duty of the breeder to train themselves and those with less knowledge about conformational issues. It is the love of the breeder for the horse that helps them decide to have non-breeding livestock. It sure isn't the money they hope to receive -- good animal husbandry can be expensive in many ways.

 

[Mini Mouse]

quote" Because when you say "The breed is over populated, stop breeding so much" in one thread, and then "My mare is due this month" in another, that makes you a hypocrite, plain and simple! Its not exactly logical for you to preach to someone else not to breed, and then tell everyone about the pregnant mares you own.

Yep, that is a little pet peeve of mine. You hear that so much on this forum about not breeding because "they are not breeding quality" or over populated yet the same people saying that are breeding themselves. IMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses. Like you say, Not everyone is a show person or breeder and can't pay high prices for pets that would have a wonderful loving home. I personally think my pet horses have a much better life than the "quality show horses" .... it's not a problem if their coat fades in the sun, they can have nice pasture grass, don't have to wear the dreaded neck sweats or stomach sweats, can eat like a horse is suppose too, and loved to death. My horses are AMHR and AMHA registered but I would not put them through all that crap just to show when the shows are mostly political and who knows who anyway. IMO, it all comes down the the money ... the more shows they win the more they sell for.

 

[maestoso]

Bess Kelly, I don't consider a horse with stifle problems, or severely crooked legs to be sound, and therefor would never like the idea or promote the idea of reproducing those problems. I clearly stated that I don't have a problem with *sound* horses being bred. And it is very clear that everyone on the forum wants all horses to be loved, regardless of the quality of the animal. And though most hear would agree that they would promote finding loving homes for pet quality horses. Most also don't see any place in this industry for *SOUND* pet quality breeding. The thing is, there IS a place for it, when done responsibly. Pet owners/buyers on a budget FAR OUT NUMBER those with the means to purchase show quality horses. Eliminating this type of breeding would eliminate oppertunitys for loving familys to find and purchase a loving pet, it would NOT eliminate the problems with abuse and neglect.

 

[tagalong]

IMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses.

Mini Mouse - where have you seen anyone say that?? A top quality horse may sell for big bucks - or not. You do not get higher prices based on lack of availability - as you seem to think some believe. That is sheer nonsense.

My horses are AMHR and AMHA registered but I would not put them through all that crap just to show when the shows are mostly political and who knows who anyway. IMO, it all comes down the the money ... the more shows they win the more they sell for.

Oh - so those who show are abusing their horses by putting them through all that crap?? There is a great deal of reverse snobbery on this board at times that gets a bit frustrating. As is the implication that if you show you do not "love" your horses.

Perhaps you should think about what you have said and consider another viewpoint......please rest assured that the majority of those on this forum do not feel a horse with a fault should not be loved, cared for and given a job. In fact, that is one of the things that is promoted. Nor do most of the forum members breed in huge quantity. But there is a general agreement that animals with known conformational issues should not be bred. They should be loved and put to their best use...be it driving, companion or pasture ornament.

Well said, Bess .... and I only wish more people would read it. And this as well....

It is the integrity of the breeder that helps to channel the breed to better and healthier production. It is the duty of the breeder to train themselves and those with less knowledge about conformational issues. It is the love of the breeder for the horse that helps them decide to have non-breeding livestock. It sure isn't the money they hope to receive -- good animal husbandry can be expensive in many ways.

You know how to make a small fortune in breeding/selling/showing horses?

Start with a large one.

Or so the old saying goes.

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

Matt - IMO this is so wrong in so many ways.

Anytime you breed - your aim is to improve on what you have - to make the breed better . Otherwise - why bother? It has NOTHING to do with The Elite - as you seem to sneer. Why continue to allow poor qualities to continue? It hurts the breed - it does not help it. But I guess if it is "for fun" then by all means, breed that poor quality stallion who would make a wonderful gelding to that poor quality mare with the ewe neck and the underbite... I am just glad that horses do not have litters - or it seems we would have mini-mills along the lines of puppy mills. Who cares about quality... or the breed.

Well, I do. And it has nothing to do with $$$$$$$$$$.

And here is a thought - you can have FUN with better quality horses that do not cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$... as many here on this forum can testify...

Eliminating this type of breeding would eliminate oppertunitys for loving familys to find and purchase a loving pet, it would NOT eliminate the problems with abuse and neglect.

No - such oppotunities would NOT be eliminated. As many of us have said - quality to quality does not always create quality of the same or higher level - althought that should always be the goal. And there are awesome pet minis available ALL THE TIME without anyone deliberately breeding for pet quality. A recent visit to a farm website that prides itself on breeding pets - showed me mares with upside down, thick necks, no hip... straight shoulders... none of this needs to be passed on. Why?

And yes - here we have sold winning show horses as PETS for pet prices as we found them great homes. A couple were even free. And I can tell you that every one of them was of much better quality than those mares on that website. Breed low quality.... and you may bring out and emphasize even worse issues... and I am not sure why anyone would want to do that...

 

[Mini Mouse]

QUOTE

IMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses.

Mini Mouse - where have you seen anyone say that?? A top quality horse may sell for bug bucks - or not. You do not get higher prices based on lack of availability - as you seem to think some believe. That is sheer nonsense.

 


I did say .. IMO

 


I don't see how that can be sheer nonsense ... lack of availability can surely make the ones available more expensive. That's with any product.

 

[tagalong]

I don't see how that can be sheer nonsense ... lack of availability can surely make the ones available more expensive. That's with any product.

Strangely enough - I do not see horses as a "product".

When you see it as some kind of "conspiracy" among breeders to bring this about - THAT is when it becomes nonsense... IMO.

 

[bevann]

As a former teacher(I think I will always try to teach people what I have learned from almost 20 years in Minis&alifetime in equines,I REALLY try to educate people about the care of Minis, but I have learned in the past year that many people do not want to learn&I can't fix STUPID.I give directions on feeding, care, farrier numbers, vet numbers, shot and trimming and worming records with each horse.My phone number and Barbara Naviaux's book goes with each horse.I send pre packed food for about 1 week and even include a bale of hay. I do follow up calls and visits.I don't know what else to do.I took back 2 mares that were half starved by the new owner in less than 10 months.I took back 2 others that the owner just decided they didn't want any more.I am not breed ing any more for next year and maybe never.I am just plain tired of stupid.These sweet little Minis deserve to be in a place where they are loved and wanted.

 

[Mini Mouse]

As a former teacher(I think I will always try to teach people what I have learned from almost 20 years in Minis&alifetime in equines,I REALLY try to educate people about the care of Minis, but I have learned in the past year that many people do not want to learn&I can't fix STUPID.I give directions on feeding, care, farrier numbers, vet numbers, shot and trimming and worming records with each horse.My phone number and Barbara Naviaux's book goes with each horse.I send pre packed food for about 1 week and even include a bale of hay. I do follow up calls and visits.I don't know what else to do.I took back 2 mares that were half starved by the new owner in less than 10 months.I took back 2 others that the owner just decided they didn't want any more.I am not breed ing any more for next year and maybe never.I am just plain tired of stupid.These sweet little Minis deserve to be in a place where they are loved and wanted.

Exactly!! I believe that 100%

I don't see how that can be sheer nonsense ... lack of availability can surely make the ones available more expensive. That's with any product.

Strangely enough - I do not see horses as a "product".

When you see it as some kind of "conspiracy" among breeders to bring this about - THAT is when it becomes nonsense... IMO.

Strange you don't see them as product. ..... anyone in the business of selling has a product to sell. In this case the product happens to be horses. That's simple!

And NO I don't see it as some kind of "conspiracy". I see it as a business

 

[Minimor]

I do agree that a big part of the problem is simply stupid people, as Bevann says. However, that stupid isn't limited just to some uninformed, stupid buyers who decide they want a little horse but don't know anything about them and can't be bothered to learn. There are also stupid people breeding little horses (big ones too)--people that are simply too stupid to know the difference between what is a sound horse and what isn't. They don't know anything about horses, nothing about conformation, nothing about form to function, and the worst part is, they aren't interested in learning. They own a mare and a stallion and they have the right to breed that mare to that stallion and by golly they are going to breed the two, simply because they want to and think a foal would be cute. They don't see and don't want to see that one or both of the horses has some conformation flaw that is sure to cause problems a little further down the line...maybe both have the same flaw, which means a good chance the foal is going to have the same flaw, maybe worse than either parent, but oh golly the resulting baby is such a pretty color, he/she must surely be a wonderful breeding prospect

I'm all for people breeding what they like, even if it is pet quality rather than show quality, but I sure do wish that before they decide to breed that each and every breeder would educate themselves on what is good sound conformation.

 

[Marty]

I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.

My pet peeve, one of them anyhow, is sellers do not ask for references from buyers.

We have people right here on the forum that do not ask for references and could care less who they sell a horse to. All they know is they have to move that horse and get the money from the first one that shows up with the cash and to heck about where the horse ends up. They buy, they sell, they buy, they sell and don't bother to check a blasted thing out as far as who they are selling to. . It IS about the money. It's AWAYS about the money. Sell this one, so she can go buy that one. That's the way it is with a whole bunch right here and we all know it.

Well sorry to say, it's not that easy to buy a horse from me. I do insist on a vet reference and them some. No reference, no horse from here will go out the gate. I know that will not help if the new owner sells down the road but I do have a first buy back clause in my contract. Even if that slips up, hopefully the buyer will ask for a reference if and when they do sell my former horse. Even though there are no guarantees, a reference can help determine his future. We can only do so much but I do try.

I'll sit on my sales horses till the cows come home and frankly I don't give a dad gum. It don't bother me none. I figure I brought these horses into this world by my hand and it's my responsibility to place them in the bestest homes there are and that's the way it is up here on the mountain with the Weenie.

 

[Danielle_E.]

I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.

My pet peeve, one of them anyhow, is sellers do not ask for references from buyers.

We have people right here on the forum that do not ask for references and could care less who they sell a horse to. All they know is they have to move that horse and get the money from the first one that shows up with the cash and to heck about where the horse ends up. They buy, they sell, they buy, they sell and don't bother to check a blasted thing out as far as who they are selling to. . It IS about the money. It's AWAYS about the money. Sell this one, so she can go buy that one. That's the way it is with a whole bunch right here and we all know it.

Well sorry to say, it's not that easy to buy a horse from me. I do insist on a vet reference and them some. No reference, no horse from here will go out the gate. I know that will not help if the new owner sells down the road but I do have a first buy back clause in my contract. Even if that slips up, hopefully the buyer will ask for a reference if and when they do sell my former horse. Even though there are no guarantees, a reference can help determine his future. We can only do so much but I do try.

I'll sit on my sales horses till the cows come home and frankly I don't give a dad gum. It don't bother me none. I figure I brought these horses into this world by my hand and it's my responsibility to place them in the bestest homes there are and that's the way it is up here on the mountain with the Weenie.

I'm with you 10,000% on this one. I would rather GIVE a horse away to a what I know would be an excellent home with a contract stipulating if at any time they do not want the animal, the animal comes back to me than to sell it to someone who can't be bothered to adhere to what I would put in a contract, which would be a first right of refusal to buy back, reference check as well, etc. Like you Marty if the purchaser balked at it, then the horse stays right here with me until I find a suitable home, end of story.

 

[Mini Mouse]

I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.

My pet peeve, one of them anyhow, is sellers do not ask for references from buyers.

We have people right here on the forum that do not ask for references and could care less who they sell a horse to. All they know is they have to move that horse and get the money from the first one that shows up with the cash and to heck about where the horse ends up. They buy, they sell, they buy, they sell and don't bother to check a blasted thing out as far as who they are selling to. . It IS about the money. It's AWAYS about the money. Sell this one, so she can go buy that one. That's the way it is with a whole bunch right here and we all know it.

Well sorry to say, it's not that easy to buy a horse from me. I do insist on a vet reference and them some. No reference, no horse from here will go out the gate. I know that will not help if the new owner sells down the road but I do have a first buy back clause in my contract. Even if that slips up, hopefully the buyer will ask for a reference if and when they do sell my former horse. Even though there are no guarantees, a reference can help determine his future. We can only do so much but I do try.

I'll sit on my sales horses till the cows come home and frankly I don't give a dad gum. It don't bother me none. I figure I brought these horses into this world by my hand and it's my responsibility to place them in the bestest homes there are and that's the way it is up here on the mountain with the Weenie.

I'm with you 10,000% on this one. I would rather GIVE a horse away to a what I know would be an excellent home with a contract stipulating if at any time they do not want the animal, the animal comes back to me than to sell it to someone who can't be bothered to adhere to what I would put in a contract, which would be a first right of refusal to buy back, reference check as well, etc. Like you Marty if the purchaser balked at it, then the horse stays right here with me until I find a suitable home, end of story.

Thank God for breeders like you two. When I bought my 2 foals the breeders even had me come stay at their house several times and interact with the horses. Then they inspected my barn and grounds before I even got to bring them home. Some people might think that was a little too much but I thought it was great. I learned a lot from those wonderful people.

 

[Margaret]

Tee hee, Marty, My foals got some baggage too, ( Halters leads flymasks grain, and hay to get them started, lol) I think I sent along almost as much poundage in supplies as one of the babies actually weighed, just because I wanted them to get a good start.

It does pay in more ways than one to wait for a knowledgable and suitable home for your minis, ..

I was not going to breed again if I could not find appropriate homes for my two offspring from eariler this year, but their babies both sold to a discriminating, and horse savvy/experienced buyer.

 

[Marty]

Ok now that I gave this more thought, let's not forget that this door swings both ways.

I have been on the receiving end more than once as a buyer of horses that were delivered to me in horrible condition, and grossly misrepresented. Talk about being pi $$ed off. Yup, they stuck it to the Weenie really good. Oh well, live and learn, right?

I would never want to sell a horse that the new buyer thought they were getting and be disappointed in on arrival also. So I do encourage people to take the time out for a farm visit first, and then make as many other visits as they care to before making that final decision. As a sellar, I do have those references handy also and they are more than welcome to check them out. I know my stock and I know who would be well suited with what kind of home and I am very willing to help my buyers figure it all out.

I have a lady now I have been working with for a couple of months and I would rather her shop around a little bit more, then come back and compare notes before making a final decision. I turned down her deposit until she has looked around a little bit more because as a newbie, we all know that you can fall in love with the first horse you see, so I want to be fair. I do want happy buyers because that makes for a happy horse future.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Or you get the "Why are yours so expensive? I can get one at the auction for $150..." spiel. Well, not only do my REGISTERED horses come with a health guarantee, they come with US. If you have a problem at 3AM we have no problem when you call us. If you want to learn to show, we'll teach you. Wanna drive? We'll teach you that, too. Even lend you equipment to get started.

We breed for OURSELVES first. We like to show our own stock. We plan each breeding. Figure out which mare crosses best with which stallion. And we don't breed them ALL. I think we have five foals due. We have 15 mares....

Lucy

 

[misfitminis]

I love my misfit minis.

I could blow $5,000 on a mini if I wanted but I like spoiling my misfits.