overpopulation

[bevann]

GO MARTY!!!I just realised that he biggest baggage my horses come with is ME.I have turned people away from buying here because I didn't think it would be a good home for 1 of my horses.There are people who are on this forum that I would NEVER sell or buy from.I just recently gave away a coming 3 yr old mare that had 7 homes.She now has a forever home with a lady who is a hospice nurse.She called me to say she keeps tring to figure out why nobody wanted to keep this sweet little mare.She can't find anything wrong with her.I did not breed any mares for next year and maybe never again. I am no longer breeding anything to sell.If I ever breed again it will be because I want the foal for myself or a friend.

 

[nootka]

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

Why does this have to include breeding before doing research, before knowing what it takes to breed a "better" animal?

I don't believe it is for the elite. I would like to think/wish it is for people that KNOW what they're doing, including what it takes to get a foal safely on the ground, a sound and healthy one, and what it takes to train it for basic ground manners (I am not even referring to showing), and then to wait and find the right home for it, regardless of price.

I still don't see the reason people breed unpapered, homely little animals just for fun. I don't see any need for it. If you want this type of horse, there are plenty born on farms that are striving for show quality, who will be culled and sold as pets (if the person is truly trying to improve their program), they will even be GIVEN away at times. There are many at auctions and in newspapers who were bred by others who just "wanted to have fun" in the form of breeding animals.

I'm sorry but I get a feeling of irresponsibility when I see someone taking two horses they got out of a newspaper for $250 or so, no papers usually, and little to no research going into the parentage, and then the resulting offspring being sold for $250 or thereabouts. Not even that the horse is not show quality, or worth anything at all (I feel all of them have SOME worth, whether it just be a companion, or whatever pleasure they are suited to such as driving), it is that there are hundreds of these horses out needing homes, even BRED mares go through auctions so if you want the joy of having a foal, it's not necessary to buy the two cheapest (when money is the only criteria, you know things are WRONG with your program) and put them together just for the fun of a foal.

The horses I have for sale will stay here until they are sold or I keep them. I'm in no hurry. They are nice, they are not cheaply priced, but I feel they are also worth it. For the right person, I would deal and lower the price, I will not give them away, I will keep them instead. My gelding is better than a lot of colts being sold as stallions out there, but he's an amazing gelding and worth every bit as much as those intact colts even though he can't breed. Not a statement out of snobbery, if you know me, you know I am NOT a snob. I want to help others learn while I am learning, myself, because I sure don't know it all and never will.

I have learned a lot in the 12 years I have had minis, though. I know others have more experience and learning than myself and I love to hear what they say, and sometimes even disagree with them or my experience not jibing with theirs. Vice versa, I'm sure.

It is our privilege.

If all the responsible breeders stopped breeding, even their one or two per year, this would make the "foal mill" types really happy because there would be fewer options, then THEY would be the ones raising their prices, you betcha. Sorry but I'm jaded that way.

Liz (who has NO foals due next year, though I tried for ONE)

 

[rabbitsfizz]

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

A cow hocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average Joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?

Sorry only just picked up on this bit OH!

Breeding, responsible breeding, is onlyonly about improving the breed, there is NO other goal.

Whilst attempting to achieve this goal we may well produce second rate animals, with short necks or club feet- although, if you are breeding from conformationally sound animals you should not get anything too bad, it can happen, and certainly something as mild as cow hocks can happen anytime.

These animals are already on offer at affordable prices as has been indicated, there is no reason and no excuse for actually deliberately breeding them.

This is not "elitist" it is common sense!

If you do not make the breed better- if you do not constantly strive for this goal, you are breeding purely for money- this is what the puppy/foal mills do.

Do not give me the old "I breed pet quality animals so people can afford them" rubbish- no-one in their right mind would do such a thing.

If you are running a charity and giving away foals so everyone can afford them you can STILL breed and give away top quality animals as cheaply as you can breed pets.

There is nothing "cheap" about breeding pet foals, the only thing cheaper is the original price of the mare and stallion, everything else costs the same whether you are breeding a world champion or a fluffy little pet.

 

[nootka]

hear, hear, Jane....you said it better than myself.

The thing that happens is that people get offended thinking it's "us against them" whoever those parties may be.

We're all in this together, and yes, if you're breeding for pets, your goals should be the same as the biggest show barn in the world: Healthy, sound, and beautiful animals with a market that appreciates them for such, whether it's for a cute pet for their daughter or to go into training as the next World champ.

Liz

 

[nightflight]

It is not the mini horse that is overpopulated, it is the STUPID, UNEDUCATED, ABUSIVE, NEGLECTFUL, AND IGNORANT, owners that are overpopulated.

I wish I could print this out on bumperstickers and plaster a car or two. Some folks just don't get something if they only read it once...

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

I know I'm going to get flamed to heck and back for this, but I have to say I both agree and disagree. On "This breed is not just for the elite", I agree. There are plenty of really good, honest and smart people who are not "elite". However, I think the slogan the horse for everyone is one of the worst ideas the AMHA has ever had. Horses are not for everyone. "Everyone" is also a lot of those Stupid, Uneducated, Abusive, Neglectful, and Ignorant people you were talking about. Producing enough horses that they are available and affordable for everyone does exactly that... makes them available to anyone.

As a breeder and a seller sooner or later you learn that everyone who is S.U.A.N.I. doesn't wear a sign. Some have money. Some will tell you exactly what you want to hear. Some are really sly, and some will be an ideal owner in some respects and totally insane or dishonest in others.

One of the themes I've seen over and over on this thread is that people want to give every horse they sell the best possible chance at a good life. They send books, care packets, instruction sheets....

----> This is what I'm going to get flamed for.

People who breed FOR pet quality ONLY are going in the other direction. They are setting a horse up to fall through the cracks and end up on a menu in another country.

My horse, your horse, good, bad or otherwise - the worst could happen to anyone. There could be a theft, a death in a family, loose contact with a buyer, anything. Anyone's horse could end up at a public auction going for the price per pound. It's less likely to happen with our minis, but it can and does happen.

That pet quality horse all the way, with or without papers is going to have only one type of buyer. Those people looking for a pet. That pet horse from a show program, with papers hopefully, is going to have more types of buyers, people looking for a pet, people who like horses from that program, or people who think that this one may be a starter show horse.

The educated buyers that we all want are exactly that - educated. They know the difference between pet quality and a quality pet. Given a choice they are going to choose the quality pet.

If it hits these boards that a reigstered horse is about to go through a low end auction, people will pay attention. If a pedgiree or show record is provided chances are someone will arrange to save that horse. They won't let it fall through the cracks if they find out about it in time. Every week unregistered minis that were bred just to be pets go through livestock auctions. At $40 for a horse where do you think they are ending up? Not all of them, but some...

Breeding for the betterment of the breed, or only for show etc, isn't over some ethical ideal to only create beauty. It's about the ethics of knowing that once you sell a horse that the very worst could happen, and giving that horse every chance to avoid that fate. Beauty and potential attract buyers. Smart, Educated, Kind buyers. Even the meat men know when they can make more money on a horse re-selling than shipping.

If keeping my horses out of a can means that I miss out on some wonderful homes that think I sell only to the "elite", well, that is something I can live with. The care and wellbeing of the animals I've brought into this world have to come before the wants of others. Breeding for the best is about breeding for what is best for the horses - not breeding so the magic pony fairy can give a mini to every child that wants one.

If you are breeding to please people, that is your choice, just please, please, please make breeding choices that give the horses a chance too. Don't make them suffer just so someone can get that pony they want that they want NOW! Even if it means that people have to wait for a foal, or maybe even *save* for a few months to be able to afford one with papers, please give your horses every possible chance for a good life now, a year from now, and twenty-five years from now.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think you say it well...there are enough poorly conformed, homely minis born to farms that are striving for show quality. I don't see where these minis aren't always sold for pets and non breeding minis though. Many people who breed for show quality are selling mini foals as show quality and yet they do not turn out to be show quality and the buyer then tries to recover their investment and breed these animals. Many people who breed for show quality think most every foal they have is show quality and want that show quality price for it. I know of more than one youngster that was sold as show quality by a big name [someone breeding for their show quality foal] that I wouldn't have on my place. Sure the buyers knows it is not show quality but the seller won't do anything about it and it has "such good bloodlines that maybe it will produce something show quality"

And if you go to auctions, you know it isn't just the person who"wanted to have fun"There are also sellers who are breeding for the "show quality" that are also there.

We can sit here behind our computers and put down the other peson until forever but the fact remains not everyone is alike, nor are they breeding for the same kind of mini or purpose. I think Matt makes a good point in that there are those who talk of how the market is flooded and yet still do a breeding or two or 50 but you know, they do have the right to do that and I am learning more all the time that I need to do my own very best and let others do what is right for them. Unfortunately there are people who come across as snobs when they speak, just the way it is. If we brag about how great we do and all the while critize what the other person is doing, these type of threads will not do a good job of educating. When someone says they have made their mistakes along the way, doesn't that mean others are alllowed to make theirs also? I do know we did not go out and buy our first minis with a whole lot of attitude that we were going to breed and produce only the best minis we could, we started out with some for our pleasure. Being a person who does love to learn I soon found out about Barbara's book and that was a beginning of wanting to have the best minis I could afford and had my goal in mind.

If all the responsible breeders stopped breeding, even their one or two per year, this would make the "foal mill" types really happy because there would be fewer options, then THEY would be the ones raising their prices, you betcha. Sorry but I'm jaded that way

I can't agree with this because those who are breeding for show quality will continue to have their market for thier show quality foals. People who are breeding for "the fun of it" do not touch the show quality market. I believe the show qulity market has been more affected by the many who are breeding for the show quality minis than the ones who are breeding for "the fun of it" But then that is just my opinion and from what I have seen with my own eyes.

I still don't see the reason people breed unpapered, homely little animals just for fun. I don't see any need for it. If you want this type of horse, there are plenty born on farms that are striving for show quality, who will be culled and sold as pets (if the person is truly trying to improve their program), they will even be GIVEN away at times. There are many at auctions and in newspapers who were bred by others who just "wanted to have fun" in the form of breeding animals.the price, I will not give them away, I will keep them instead. My gelding is better than a lot of colts being sold as stallions out there, but he's an amazing gelding and worth every bit as much as those intact colts even though he can't breed. Not a statement out of snobbery, if you know me, you know I am NOT a snob. I want to help others learn while I am learning, myself, because I sure don't know it all and never will.

It is our privilege.

Liz (who has NO foals due next year, though I tried for ONE)

 

[rabbitsfizz]

SUANI and SEK- I like!!!!

 

[maestoso]

Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????

My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"

What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you dont get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.

 

[Jill]

Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????

My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"

What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you dont get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.

The average person who has any business owning horses can afford to pay the prices I've paid for my show quality horses, and the prices I plan to ask for my (hopefully show quality) foals. People who can only afford to pay a few hundred for a horse can't afford to really own one in my opinion.

Now, there is a big difference between what someone can afford to pay and what someone is willing to pay. I do not think a couple-few thousand is too much to spend on a foal, nor too much for a dog for that matter.

You're going on about what people can AFFORD to pay. The thing is, every single person who owns a horse is endulging in a major luxury. It's something that NO ONE needs. It's about what people want to improve their lives, not about what they need. It's like saying diamond rings should be cheaper so everyone can afford to own one -- except diamond rings don't need to be fed hay and see the vet when they get sick.

 

[nootka]

Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????

My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"

What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you dont get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.

My answer is yes. I have given away mares that were not breeding quality and I have sold some for $500,j which, to me, is bottom dollar for a pet horse. That is making NO money.

L.

 

[MInx]

Yes, and am I ever sick of hearing like backyard breeders of dogs the excuse of

"We wanted our kids to see the miracle of birth!" Then get a dang fish aquarium!

Before you flame , yes fish count too! But people overpopulate dogs and they end up in the pound because "the kids wanted to see the miracle of birth" Rubbish! And cats too and duh, guess what it's nearly that way with mini horses..

How many of the new owners start by buying a Mare/stallion or 3 in one pkg?! Why, only one reason , they see $$ in their eyes.

Well they need to go visit this forums sales board, auction board and or Pet-finder or equine.com.

The market is saturated! I could be wrong. we don't breed and perhaps it's the availability of free advertising to sell so we just see more out there. But how many of those ads say, "Due to the price of hay, gas etc" Did they think when they planned those breeding's the foals wouldn't have to eat?!

When I showed Great Danes for 11 yrs we had all of 3 litters in all that time! Could have sold dozens..we followed all our puppies first year at minimum and some sent pictures till that puppy went through it's life and died of old age.!

Many, many seem to be looking for the quick buck like we've all said..

May I ask what's wrong with buying yourself A horse, not a herd! Drive it, show it if you will, love it, teach it tricks...but give it the attention and love it deserves. mind you due to my health I don't do SHammy the justice I feel she deserves..but she knows how I love her and adore her, and most of all I RESPECT her..and the same with Carl and his Shadow gelding.

Our place isn't fancy, I don't normally show pictures..but it's a good safe, warm pole barn with cozy stalls..a turn out pen that runs way back behind the barn cleared from the woods..they have shade from the heat, also a turn out shed out there.

To me basics are everything..that's where you start and if you're not ready for the challenge, STOP THERE!

I'd love to have a baby from Shammy, she has good breeding, (an own daughter of East Acres Golden Jubilee) .But she had four already before I got her (she had three Palomino fillies and one sorrel filly)and she's done..My wanting one just isn't reason enough to do it..

Maxine

 

[Buckskin gal]

Anyone who pays thousands of dollars for a pet usually has more money than they know what to do with or maybe not had to work really hard for the money. If we check the past out, I think we find that even the minis who were selling for the lowest amount, which was in the thousand and up range, were buying them for breeding because the market was bringing great prices for anything small. It isn't how much a person pays for your horse that makes it the best home, it is about many other things. I know of people who are loaded and buy what ever their heart desires but it isn't long before the new is old and they are off to something else. I would be much more hesitant in selling to the person who can afford everything their heart desires than to a person who knows all about how to manage what they earn. The best way to make sure your mini never gets into a bad home is not sell it. There just aren't any guarantees in life that are worthwhile. If you don't breed you never have to worry about the right home for that mini. If you do breed you will never know for sure where that mini may end up in the future. That is simply the reality of breeding and it is far different from producing something that is not a living breathing creature. We can only do the best we can. Mary

 

[nightflight]

Matt,

What is reasonable?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????

My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"

What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you don't get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.

You are making assumptions that have absolutely NO grounding in truth!!

MANY top breeders will lower to very affordable the price of a colt wanted as a gelding, and as a pet- I know I do.

What I object to is someone wringing their hands about price and wanting a "little pet" for little pet price but, oh No he shall not be gelded as they might just breed him the once.............................

Hah!!!!

But, no, on a gelding contract(or better still already gelded) I am only too glad to let a colt go at "pet" price, of course, and I know many, many others like me.

 

[Jill]

Anyone who pays thousands of dollars for a pet usually has more money than they know what to do with or maybe not had to work really hard for the money....

You know, in my life, what extra things give me more joy than my pets and horses? I've not yet spent thousands for a dog, but if it was the dog I want, you bet I would. Some people pay that for a TV, so why is that out of the realm of reasonable for a pet? My family members have spent that for their dogs, and I did spend close for one... WE all know what it's like to work very hard for what we have. Those who have more money than they know what to do with should talk to me. I make my living knowing what to do with money.

 

[Elsa]

Cheers to you, Marty! I wish more breeders were so responsible and dedicated to the well-being of the horses they bring into the world.

We have bred two horses here and they will more than likely stay here. I get the impression that most (not all) breeders sell horses to anyone who has the money to buy them. And then if they end up in a good home, it turns into "I sold a horse to a great home". Yeah, but you didn't know that ahead of time.

for those who claim horse breeding isn't a business, what a bunch of crap! Those who breed several foals every year, how can it not be a business? Surely you don't plan on keeping all those foals. Maybe one or two at the most to improve your breeding program, but what about the rest of them?!

 

[Buckskin gal]

Perhaps you missed the point I was trying to make which often happens. There is nothing that I enjoy more than our minis, also. Yes, if you have the money to pay thousands of dollars for a pet, then do so but not everyone does and so they pay a price within their means and have just as much love for the animal as the

more expensive pets gets, in many cases. I didn't say anything was out of realm for an individual nor did I say that no one shouldn't be able to buy what they can afford. Please don't be so defensive for all this is is opinions and I was not speaking to you personally. Mary

Anyone who pays thousands of dollars for a pet usually has more money than they know what to do with or maybe not had to work really hard for the money....

You know, in my life, what extra things give me more joy than my pets and horses? I've not yet spent thousands for a dog, but if it was the dog I want, you bet I would. Some people pay that for a TV, so why is that out of the realm of reasonable for a pet? My family members have spent that for their dogs, and I did spend close for one... WE all know what it's like to work very hard for what we have. Those who have more money than they know what to do with should talk to me. I make my living knowing what to do with money.

 

[Jill]

Mary, really, was just giving my opinion on your statement. Not feeling defensive or anything, just stating my personal opinion.

Back to what I think the theme of the thread was set out to be (though I may be confused, it did seem to ramble) -- I'm not one who thinks we need to breed minis with the purpose in mind of accomodating the $500 per mini market.

Why set out to breed for pet quality when pet quality happens with the best of planning. Who here would even stay in breeding if it were just to ask $500/foal? That doesn't begin to cover the expensives of a pregnancy especially if the vet has to get even slightly involved (like for a well foal check...).

People who are only willing to pay a couple-few hundred for a horse will find them. They are out there and always will be. But, to set out to breed a foal that will be worth only a few hundred............ OH!

 

[Buckskin gal]

Yes, these threads do seem to ramble...thier nature to!

I do believe that there are people who will be breeding minis even though they aren't making money. I would love to see every person who breeds minis breed only the very best but it just isn't going to happen and it is something others have to learn to live with. I guess if we want to breed our thousand dollar horses without someone objecting then we have to allow those who are are breeding the $500.00 ones also. I am one that believes it isn't the amount paid for the horse that will guarantee a show prospect and I know of minis that have sold for $350.00 that were of great quality and did prove themselves in the showring also. That is just the way it is. Mary

Mary, really, was just giving my opinion on your statement. Not feeling defensive or anything, just stating my personal opinion.

Back to what I think the theme of the thread was set out to be (though I may be confused, it did seem to ramble) -- I'm not one who thinks we need to breed minis with the purpose in mind of accomodating the $500 per mini market. Why set out to breed for pet quality when pet quality happens with the best of planning. Who here would even stay in breeding if it were just to ask $500/foal? That doesn't begin to cover the expensives of a pregnancy especially if the vet has to get even slightly involved (like for a well foal check...). People who are only willing to pay a couple-few hundred for a horse will find them. They are out there and always will be. But, to set out to breed a foal that will be worth only a few hundred............ OH!

 

[Shari]

This subject has been around a long time. Problem is.. .. most of the people that need to learn aren't on this list.

Personally.. if I want a new horse.. I rather get one from someone I know that has the same values as I do or I bred my own...because I know what I will be getting. I would like to have that option.

If all breeding stopped by the responsible breeders and only the puppy mills or uncaring folks kept breeding....that would not do anyone any favors.

I would rather have the well bred horse, than one from a mini mill or unknowledgeable breeders.

There is no easy way. People can argue till the cows come home but unless they are willing to go out and educate people without making them defensive.............. nothing is going to change.