overpopulation

If you post an opinion, and the majority of posts disagree all that means is that the majority of posters, on this Forum, who have given an opinion, disagree with the original post.

Example:

"I think the only really good colour for a Mini is Palomino"

Now many would disagree- but that does not change the fact that I still think it- nor does the fact that I think it mean that people do not have a right to say they think Bays are best!!

Anyone need my decoder ring???

 

Piling on?? Knocked down?? HUH?

Charley - you mainly quoted ME - out of context in many cases... and if you have an issue with me kindly take it to PM. I only disagreed with Matt and offered my opinion and thoughts - believe it or not we do not all have to think the same way. Matt has been contemptuous at times of anyone who did not agree with him - and if you had highlighted only his many snide comments that would paint a very different picture of this thread...

I am beginning to think that some of those who are upset about this thread have never been on any kind of message board or forum before. As I said earlier - this one is TAME. Even our most heated threads pale beside what constitutes a heated thread elsewhere. Get into a heated thread on CotH forums...and see how much skin you have left when tney are done with you! Especially if you sail in and announce that anyone who does not agree with you is stupid, ignorant etc. as has been the case here...

\
But Matt - you have.

But nevermind...

On any forum - if one does not like a thread - one does not have to read it or take part. In fact, taking part only to berate and chastise others for posting in that thread bumps up and lengthens the thread you dislike - so it is counterproductive.

And the best thing to do with those who only want to stir the pot and taunt and sneer... is ignore. Which I am going to struggle to remember - and not rise to the bait.

Ummm... I think the stupidity comment referred to the goofiness of some posts - the funny ones ... and that was all. And the part I bolded... well, decoder rings comments etc. are not in the same ballpark as direct put downs, belittlements and snide remarks... but whatever. If one choose to carry on that way - that is one's choice...

This forum is extremely helpful, informative - and a great source of knowledge and fun... if one is actually open to discussion and the insight/opinions of others. Any forum is a conversation - not a monologue - and that is how we all learn.

And it does work....

ETA: ... and just to clarify for the PM network... I am not part of any "inner circle"... or "elite" ... or what have you...

 

Matt Drown said:

THIS is what's wrong with "breeding" and what was said here:

Breeding creates it's own "PROBLEM" and that is MORE MINIS. Now, the question does not become "can you provide love and safety and care for your mini" but can you proved the same for its foals, and if those foals are male, can you provide a place to separate them, and/or geld them so that they do not breed their mother, their sister, or get into a huge fight with daddy when the hormones show up?

If you are breeding more than one, well, you will now need to separate, while still caring for, brother and sister, and keep them away from daddy (we don't want daddy breeding his daughter when she's too young, even if you are "for" linebreeding or inbreeding, however you choose to look at it), and brother away from mother, and oh, let's let mommy and daddy have some quality time so that we have new little siblings for next year....even though we are NEVER going to sell brother and sister, auntie, uncle, or even grandma?

What happens is that people become overwhelmed. Foals must be weaned, must have their own stall, their own space, as well as having training and care, and young horses need a lot of the above in the form of hoof trims, attention to behavior, dental checks and vaccinations (they need multiple vaccinations for the initial doses, more than the others that just usually need boosters). Foals often don't sell the same month they were weaned, they may not even sell that year or the next. The fact is, you may have to wait for your market for years, and that requires more financial, time, and resource to be devoted to that foal, all the while you may have more foals coming (because we're so sure our little cutie will find a home before mom foals next year).

Breeding in itself is not a sin, it is something to do with your eyes wide open for the next two to five years, because that is what you are dedicating to that horse (foal) when you decide to let the stallion and mare together. NOT merely 11 months and the few months the foal is small. If you have to fire sale/dump them at low prices or giveaways, you are merely adding to a problem, and it isn't fair to the horses themselves, because we all know the less that goes into the planning of a foal, the less that the horse will likely expect or get out of its own life.

These are living animals with feelings, and they deserve a breeder's respect in that a basic level of comfort is promised and assured (i.e., if something happened and you could not sell any horses for the next five years, would you be able to care for your exponentially growing and complicated herd (in the fact that many will have to have separate housing and pasturing due to gender issues and personality conflicts) as well as finanically do so without any income from them at all? Even if the disastrous happened and hay were unavailable (a highly likely possibility many people are living righ now), or you were disabled, lost your job, etc. etc.

These are the things we think about. It's a little like deciding to have a baby yourself. You don't just get a cute little bundle to cuddle while it's a few months old. You get a person for the rest of your life, that has a direct need for you.

Not QUITE the same implications, but yes, it's a long-term commitment.

I hope you see the sense in what I'm saying, this applies to ALL of US, WE, I, YOU, THEM!!!!

NO lines, no societies, us.

I will say again that if you want a horse for only a pet, you can find them, even young foals, to purchase for next to nothing, and you get to choose the gender, the color, the size, etc. UNLIKE if you bred it yourself. These things are all a toss-up, and that is again why I say people love to breed, because it's a fact, we love to gamble.

Liz

 

Then why Nootka, do you breed and sell at all??

And so were back at square 1, and my cue to peace out!

 

Why do I breed and sell at all?

Because I can (please don't just stop here, read the REST), and I do feel that I am doing so with the goals I have stated in mind:

sound horses with a purpose and value to multiple markets INCLUDING pets.

I have never had much trouble selling my horses or placing those for pets if I get one of those inadvertently.

I have NO FOALS coming for 2008. I have my foals from 2007 for tentative sale. If they do not sell, I will be just fine.

I am breeding or trying to breed one mare for 2009. If that works out, fine, I will still be great, regardless of the market. If I do not sell anyone, I will not breed for some time, probably until my2007 filly is old enough.

IF I have the space.

My horses win show titles, they have things to do (I break mine to drive), they are wonderfully personalitied, they also look really nice (I have heard unsolicited comments from MANY on this subject, though I try hard not to be barn blind, my horses also have faults that I am trying not to replicate for the future). Oh, and with rare exception, they are physically sound. When they aren't, I do the work to ensure that they still have homes and quality of life.

Have a look at my site and tell me where I'm wrong, I am fine with you pointing out the ugliness of my horses, the unsuitability for whatever you feel they are unsuited for, under or overpriced, self-flattering or whatever you feel. Really, I would love to know. Cast that stone, because I do not live in a glass house.

Otherwise, your intentions were merely to lead everyone around in circles, yourself included. I feel you're leading up to proving that you are going to breed and sell because YOU can, and as long as you consider all the rest, have at it, big guy.

"And so were back at square 1, and my cue to peace out!"

that part right there shows me that you are not willing to hear what anyone has to say, you have made up your mind. Good for you, but in the future, don't bother to ask any questions because people that act this way have no goal except to try and show how right they are, exactly what you're accusing everyone else of, when in fact, those that I feel have any worth at all to this industry/hobby of breeding miniature horses are going to hop on the bandwagon to agree with you, are those that really need to take a look at their own breeding programs and sales goals. SERIOUSLY.

Liz

 

Oh me too!!!!!

You know, lighten up some of you folks. People get angry when the posts get opinionated, and now get angry when folks are just having fun. What folks MAY or MAY NOT have done in the 60's or maybe the 70's or ...... is a mute point and water under the bridge!

Rabbits, make sure your ring didnt drop into the brownie dough! You might break a tooth!

My own very personal opinion is that this world - all of it- is waaaay too worried about being politically correct, and I have never been, nor will I be EVER, accused of that! Cripes, folks cant even enjoy a good joke and some silliness.

I had a real visual on Rabbits, Jill, Mona, Vertical and others all sitting around a room with this conversation and rolling laughing as the conversation went on. I have to stop reading this at work though cause I am going to get in trouble for laughing too loud.

Enjoy the holiday season everyone and unwind- good grief!

Marty, keep those songs coming! And who's bogarting that.....

 

Is the point of this that there are TOO MANY miniature horses? The prices seem to say there are too few, no?

 

The prices for miniatures in Oklahoma are low to free. Breeders and show folk get more for theirs, but regular little horses don't fall in that category. Horses right now are a luxury, and many younger people don't care about horses. The whole market is down for horses.

 

So this would be a good time to buy if we had a place to keep them? Makes me want land, even more, now.

 

I live in the country and have land, but our town has an area of pens by the arena and fairgrounds. People rent pens there for their horses and bottle calves. You might check with local 4H or school AG programs and see if there is something available near you. Some small towns around me allow hooved animals in town. Personally, I think all towns should allow this; residents can keep 6 barking dogs in a yard, but not a miniature horse or dairy goat??

 

I didn't read all 15 pages of this thread but thought I'd just pop in and add an interesting fact from my area. 10 years ago if you clicked on "horses" on our local classified ad site you'd see over 1,500 adds. 5 years ago that dropped to about 1,000 adds. Now it's between 600-800 (less in the spring more in the fall when feed bills are due ). So, at least in my area, horse breeding and ownership are down. And I live in a more rural area where lots of people have horses.

I'm a firm believer of responsible breeding. My sale bought mare popped out a surprise baby 7 months after I bought her. He's going to live his life with me but if I couldn't afford to keep him he wouldn't be worth much as an un-papered "class C" mini. I try to do right by the animals I have and help where I can. I respect those that chose to breed their animals and hope that they are doing all they can to improve the breed (dogs, horses, whatever).