Just got The Journal in the mail

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Sandy why don't you post what pages these ponies are on so that everyone can see what you are referring to.
It won't help anyone be singled out. If you just look at the magazine you can see the ones many are referring to. I have a small Modern. Do we let the hooves get really long? NO. but I respect others right to care for their animals. I don't have to like it.

That's right people we are talking about animals. I don't personally hold them on the same level as say children. Those animals can't TELL me that they are unhappy. As long as they are fed, and their health is good, I don't think we should interfere with how people show their stock. Not too long ago people in China bound their femals child's feet to keep them small. Was it hurtful? wrong? According to OUR standards yes but in their society it was "normal". They loved their kids and wanted them to fit into their society. We shouldn't judge others just because we FEEL one way while they another.

It's fine to say "I don't like it" but don't say "We need a rule!"
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Ok, that's my opnion.
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And from a prior post on this thread it was mentioned that it was because a trainer was not at the lead of the horse and that could be why. I'm sorry but you have a lot of your older farms that are amateur and have been showing horses for a very long time, I do think they know quite a bit about what they are doing. I also do not think that trainers are infallible, no one is, we are all human.

I believe this was directed at my post. I'll elaborate on what I said earlier. When I flipped through the pages of the Journal and saw the photo ads and well as the win shots, I saw NO horse with a trainer at the lead or whip that I felt had excessive hoof length. The only ones I saw, and there was only 3 I believe, that looked excessive to me (reference the half the canon bone length) were handled by non- professionals. That may mean something; it may mean nothing. Just on observation on my part. That and $1 will get you a sweet tea at McDonalds.
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Sandee giving page numbers isn't singling anyone out. You have to remember not everyone has received their Journal (I have not) and would like to see on line what the original poster is looking at that is all. If you like you can email me privately.
 
Who's on the cover of this issue? Not sure if I have the latest issue or not. Maybe you could give us a page range - for example 'some page between 15 and 18', then we might be able to figure it out. I suppose if it's a full page ad, then giving the page number would be 'singling' them out.
 
Parmela, I understand better what you were trying to say now. Thank you for clarifying.
 
Thank you for this explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

I agree with you, there is nothing prettier than watching a pretty moving horse that is as natural as it can be. I applaud you for showing your girl natural!

When you have been out to these farms that you have visited and seen these "Modern" ponies running around in pasture, were they sporting their long toes and big shoes or were they now in the natural hoof? I know when I worked with the Morgans that it was a HUGE No No to even turn the horses out that were shod up as the chances of them throwing a shoe was high. This was the rule at all the farms.

This is confusing to a lot of people. The clubs name is officially "American Shetland Pony Club" or ASPC. The American Miniature Horse Registry (AMHR) is a division of ASPC.

This particular issues is known as the "Congress" issue which shows the results of the American Shetland Congress. The next issue will be the "Nationals" issue that will showcase the results of AMHR Nationals.

I am probably in the middle somewhere in this debate. I showed a Modern Pleasure pony for years but would never shoe her, band her etc. Because this is what I prefer and how I do it. Most of you know I am not for extreme anything and more of a natural woman. I love the way our MP pony moves so I could never see why I should shoe her up, band her etc.

The flip side of that is I do not take people to task that do shoe up their horses as long as its done responsibly. I have been to many farms that own Moderns and Modern Pleasures and they look quite happy and healthy running around the pasture.

I do think that all sides in this issue could post a little more like adults and not sling mud at each other.

This is a great opportunity to learn about why things are done, but if everyone is busy attacking each other the message is lost.

Like all divisions you will have people that push it too far. That goes whether its miniatures, moderns, classics or foundations. Someone will always push the envelope
 
Dr. Taylor- You reference the heaviest shoes being a medicinal plate attached to just one foot. Exactly how is this plate used? Is it used on horses confined to stall and hand walking? Horses turned out in a pasture or is the horse performing with this one medicinal plate? As you said, I would not expect to see any short or long term affect with a medicinal plate as the horse would typically be in a natural hoof trim (or shoe) and not in this plate for any great length of time.

Thank you for your explanation of support.

Carin Ponder mentioned that your family is part of the famed Michigan Ponies. I assume your family shows these modern ponies?
 
You make a lot of good statements:

"When you see Miniatures that trot, sometimes they have been subjected to banding ... and I mean overbanding. Improper & uneducated use of that tool is way more likely to cause long-term problems than overshoeing.EVERYTHING hinges on education and proper care. While there will also be ignorant people who do the wrong thing on any given topic, you can't judge an entire group based on that. Just like you can't make assumptions about a division by a few photos in a book. Again, I looked back through the pics. I see only TWO that have the old-style up tails. I see only a small, small, small percentage of shoeing that gives me pause. Even in those cases ... as someone who has been managing feet for long-term viability ... my more likely comment would be the length of the hooves."

I agree 100%, any training tool used wrongly or in excess(the old more is better theory) is wrong on many levels!! I also agree that proper education and care is essential to any horse. I never judged an entire group in my original post. I said I could not believe what AMHR (now I know it was not AMHR) allowed to show and then win titles by viewing these few pictures that were way excessive. It left me wondering in that was the directions AMHR was headed. I was appalled by it due to my experience with the Morgan horse. I had seen first hand the issues that these long hooves and big shoes had caused on them and I was shocked that over sized minis (again, I am thinking AMHR) and or ponies were allowed to sport.

I have no doubt that these show ponies (both shown natural & in long hoof and shoes) are cared for extremely well. I never said that they were not cared for well. However, is long hooves and big shoes in the best interest of the pony?

I also want to thank everyone for their explanation on tails. I am glad these ponies are not suffering the cutting and torture that used to take place to get their tail set. I still do not condone ginger use though. I think if you are going to use it, then you should experience it yourself and see how you tolerate it.

Finally congratulations ahrobertspony on owning the winning-est mare in history of Congress! That is quite an accomplishment and I know first hand about great mares and how special they are.

Thank you, Dr. Matt, for your helpful and informative posts. Thank you, Carin, for the compliment. Thank you, Kay, for pointing out the actual chain of command. The rules pertaining to Modern Shetlands in the rulebook of the American Shetland Pony Club are the OLDEST continual mandates. THIS section of the association's rulebook is the one that goes back to the origins of the registry.

My original post was targeted toward the individual who posted about the TREND. What you see is NO trend. See the history I shared. In fact, the TREND is actually just exactly the opposite. There are many, many fewer overshod ponies today than in years past because the animals have simply been bred to be more talented. Although, I am not sure that anything that happens over the course of the 40 years we've been involved can be termed a TREND.

My post also answered the poster who commented about the tails. Again, the TREND is away from nicking, tailsets, etc.

Finally, someone posted about the long-term viability of these ponies. Pull show results and compare divisions from Miniature to Modern. You will find MODERNS are the division with the largest percentage of older animals competing, especially among the performance animals. Obviously this fact flies in the face of the assumption that someone posted that

My family has done this nearly 45 years. I can't even begin to imagine how many total ponies have passed through our hands, barn and pasture. Do you know how many of those have been cripple or had long-term feet problems? EXACTLY ZERO.

We are proud to own the winning-est mare in the history of the Congress. She took her 5th Congress grand championship just this summer and her 6th national liberty title. She is 17. We've been shoeing and professionally managing this mare's feet for 17 years. If you need any proof of that ... check out the LIBERTY titles. She's never lost a shoe doing that ... so her feet can't be too negatively impacted. Of course, she doesn't carry the kind of foot referenced in the pics as she doesnt' really need it. I hope she's around many years and believe there is certainly every possibility of that because we just lost her mother at the age of 30 .... she lived healthy and happy until about 24 hours before she passed away. The pony in the best shape in the pasture? A 22 year mare who had a long, long, long career as a very, very, very successful World and Congress grand champion mare & roadster pony. She probably has the healthiest feet on the property!

MY contention is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what some folks propose here: I think most of these ponies actually have better feet, better feet & leg management and better medical attention to leg and feet health than any other division. As anyone follows any performance type horse breed ... from show to racing ... you will know that leg health can dictate long-term viability. Otherwise, you don't have a pony MORE capable & fit to win at 16 (as a wet broodmare with a foal on her side) and at 17 than she was at 3 ... when she was still immature and not fully developed.

When you see Miniatures that trot, sometimes they have been subjected to banding ... and I mean overbanding. Improper & uneducated use of that tool is way more likely to cause long-term problems than overshoeing.

EVERYTHING hinges on education and proper care. While there will also be ignorant people who do the wrong thing on any given topic, you can't judge an entire group based on that. Just like you can't make assumptions about a division by a few photos in a book. Again, I looked back through the pics. I see only TWO that have the old-style up tails. I see only a small, small, small percentage of shoeing that gives me pause. Even in those cases ... as someone who has been managing feet for long-term viability ... my more likely comment would be the length of the hooves.

As another point of eduction, the legal matters related to Tennessee Walking Horses relates to soring. That has nothing to do do with shoeing, shoes, pads, etc.

Of course, it is possible that I don't know much about this as someone looking only at photos.
 
As I do not want to point out any pictures, I encourage you to look at the issue yourself and form your own opinions. You can view the current issue of The Journal online. Naming names and picture pages is not the issue, but you will see several examples in the first dozen pages that I am referring to. These have extra long hooves and shod in big pads and weighted shoes. A couple in particular from hoof to bottom of shoe is the same length as the cannon bone (from top of fetlock joint to bottom of knee joint).

I will say that there are some GORGEOUS ponies in the magazine with what looks to be natural fancy movement that look barefoot or shod with a normal-ish length of hoof.
 
Thank you for this explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

I agree with you, there is nothing prettier than watching a pretty moving horse that is as natural as it can be. I applaud you for showing your girl natural!

When you have been out to these farms that you have visited and seen these "Modern" ponies running around in pasture, were they sporting their long toes and big shoes or were they now in the natural hoof? I know when I worked with the Morgans that it was a HUGE No No to even turn the horses out that were shod up as the chances of them throwing a shoe was high. This was the rule at all the farms.
Most people who have the specially-shod Moderns do not turn them out in pasture... there is some risk of having the pony rip off the shoe and foot with it, so it isn't generally in the horses' best interest to do so.

However, I know that after show season most people pull the shoes off and then let them go barefoot or just in a keg shoe... and turn them out for the winter. It is very expensive to shoe up a pony and then keep it worked in the lines or in hand.

Andrea
 
Dr. Taylor- You reference the heaviest shoes being a medicinal plate attached to just one foot. Exactly how is this plate used? Is it used on horses confined to stall and hand walking? Horses turned out in a pasture or is the horse performing with this one medicinal plate? As you said, I would not expect to see any short or long term affect with a medicinal plate as the horse would typically be in a natural hoof trim (or shoe) and not in this plate for any great length of time.

Thank you for your explanation of support.

Carin Ponder mentioned that your family is part of the famed Michigan Ponies. I assume your family shows these modern ponies?
Medicine plates are used to not only treat the foot, but also to protect the foot. They are frequently worn for weeks and months and although stall confinement can be included in the treatment it doesn't have to be. I have had some horses continue their exercise regimen and even had one show in it, but it was a halter QH so athleticism was his strong point.

My Grandfather, Dr Sam Taylor, started the pony farm (that I now live on) in 1945, my Father, Dr Tom Taylor has continued the farm to the present day and my sister, Abbie Smith and I will likely continue well into the future. We have had and shown, I think, every size and division of the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR except NSPR.

I will have to agree with Mrs Amy (Roberts) Clark, I do not believe I have ever had a pony that was crippled due to shoe weight or foot length. In fact, other than founder/laminitis or injury I don't recall any crippled ponies at all.

Dr Taylor
 
When you have been out to these farms that you have visited and seen these "Modern" ponies running around in pasture, were they sporting their long toes and big shoes or were they now in the natural hoof? I know when I worked with the Morgans that it was a HUGE No No to even turn the horses out that were shod up as the chances of them throwing a shoe was high. This was the rule at all the farms.
No they were not shod. As Andrea said a lot of farms take the shoes off in the off season (but not all).

There is a huge misconception about Modern ponies from their temperment to their movement. These ponies know when to turn it on and when to be at home.
 
When I flipped through the pages of the Journal and saw the photo ads and well as the win shots, I saw NO horse with a trainer at the lead or whip that I felt had excessive hoof length. The only ones I saw, and there was only 3 I believe, that looked excessive to me (reference the half the canon bone length) were handled by non- professionals. That may mean something; it may mean nothing.

And I will respectfully disagree. I know these ponies & this division like an intimate friend. EVERY single pony that gives me pause regarding feet ... even if PICTURED in the The Journal with an AMATEUR exhibitor ... is absolutely, positively, without question under the direction & in the care of a professional trainer.
 
I have re-read all my posts and can not find where I knock the way these ponies move? I am all for breeding natural ability and movement. As Blackdraft's pictures shows a lovely 2 year old in regular keg shoes with incredible front and rear action. That is AWESOME! I do not have issues with a pony being shod if needed with a regular keg shoes or a normal pad due to hoof problems or soundness issues. I am all too familiar with built up shoes and the art of allowing the hoof to grow longer as I was in the Morgan horse breed for many years and witnessed a lot. Oh and yes bustles and ginger, firecrackers, smoke, surgical tubing/bungees, chains and weights. I guarantee you those built up shoes on those ponies weigh more than a regular keg shoe. My farrier (who is incredible) does shoe a few Saddle Seat Horses and used to shoe a few other Park Morgans. We have talked in depth about this and I am aware of the limits pushed to enhance the "natural" ability.

You all have gotten so way off topic in defending your Shetlands ponies that I wonder if all Shetland exhibitors and breeders are like you guys. It has put a sour taste in my mouth. You have taken my words and twisted them to what you want to hear. SO I am going to say again- First of all I am not talking about Shetlands back in the 50's, I am talking about the couple pictures (one in particular) in the current issue of the Journal (in regards to shoes). Second, I never said that a pony that is trotting with action and flagging its tail is abusive. I never said I have problems with "false" tails, I do have a problem with ginger.

So you guys can all call me ignorant, and sling the insults at my supposed lack of knowledge and I will just grin and shake my head. I would like to see you walk around in wedge heels 24/7 and then run around several minutes a day and then have someone put some ginger up your buns and run around some more in those wedge heels. Check back with me in a couple years and we will see how you are physically holding up.

One last thing- The one thing I have alway admired about all pony breeds and our wonderful miniatures, is that they have good tough feet and rarely need shoes. It is one of the advantages of pony breeds.

WHOA!!!! Who was it that said "I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies!" Just sitting here shaking my head wondering...and wondering...and wondering.
 
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Whoa what?

WHOA!!!! Who was it that said "I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies!" Just sitting here shaking my head wondering...and wondering...and wondering.
 
That is nice to know that some people do take the shoes off. Do they trim the hooves back to normal state too? I know the Morgans were never taken off.

Again, I can only draw on my experience from the Morgans, but I will tell you very few of the Park horses were pleasant to work with, most were at times flat out crazy. The Pleasure horses were a bot better to handle, but even then there were many crazy ones. You would get them hitched and it was stand back and heads up when it was time for them to move forward. They were rearing and leaping until they got going. It was like a barrel horse getting ready in the chute to run the pattern. It is nice to know that these ponies behave much better than that. At least they are smaller if the do carry on.

No they were not shod. As Andrea said a lot of farms take the shoes off in the off season (but not all).

There is a huge misconception about Modern ponies from their temperment to their movement. These ponies know when to turn it on and when to be at home.
 
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That is the beauty of most pony breeds, they are pretty hardy. I am glad to hear that so many of you have never had to deal with "crippled" ponies. What about injuries or arthritis or tearing part of the hoof off?

Usually when medicinal plates are used it is on a normal trimmed natural hoof, not one that has been grown to extreme lengths. The plates are also not left on for years and in most cases the plates are temporary. And as you said only "some" (depending on diagnosis) can continue their work load. So the medicinal plate is really not the same thing as a horse (or pony) who has excess hoof and built up shoes.

Medicine plates are used to not only treat the foot, but also to protect the foot. They are frequently worn for weeks and months and although stall confinement can be included in the treatment it doesn't have to be. I have had some horses continue their exercise regimen and even had one show in it, but it was a halter QH so athleticism was his strong point.

My Grandfather, Dr Sam Taylor, started the pony farm (that I now live on) in 1945, my Father, Dr Tom Taylor has continued the farm to the present day and my sister, Abbie Smith and I will likely continue well into the future. We have had and shown, I think, every size and division of the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR except NSPR.

I will have to agree with Mrs Amy (Roberts) Clark, I do not believe I have ever had a pony that was crippled due to shoe weight or foot length. In fact, other than founder/laminitis or injury I don't recall any crippled ponies at all.

Dr Taylor
 
. It was like a barrel horse getting ready in the chute to run the pattern. It is nice to know that these ponies behave much better than that. At least they are smaller if the do carry on.
I guess I am not sure why that is a bad thing? Most barrel horses ready to go love their job, most cow horses excited to go from the chute love their job, most jumpers hard to hold back at the fence love their job. Most of those driving ponies hot and ready to go once hooked love their job.

Are some of those horses in those and other disciplines abused of course but for the most part there is a clear difference in watching a horse who has been beaten to submission or cruelly treated or in pain ect working as opposed to one who is hot and excited and simply loves their job.
 
Ok, I've been avoiding commenting on this thread but I've just got to ask this question. What do you consider grown up hooves or extreme wieght on the shoes? I know that in the shetland ring alone that everybody has a different view of what too much wieght is. I was told once by a known trainer in the industry that a good harness pony can't trot without a shoe wieghing at least 15 ozs. Now I think that is wrong and a bit extreme but they defiantly don't think so. As for length of hoof, agian that all depends on who you speak to.
 
Oh, and all of my ponies get shoes pulled and hooves trimmed clean after show season & are then let out to pasture for the off season.
 
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