Just got The Journal in the mail

[Sandy B]

I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies.

 

[MindyLee]

I agree! The hoofs look stupid on such beautiful horses.

Im a mini equine farrier and to me, the hoofs are unbalanced with that type of angles.

ONLY Just my opinion.

 

[Minimor]

I don't have my Journal yet & haven't seen it on-line, so haven't seen the photos you're referring to, but I rather expect those "broken tails" are actually false tails. No harm in those.

The shoes--well, it's my view that many of the Modern ponies are way over-weighted. I don't see anything impressive about a pony that is jerking its feet up off the ground but that is the way some of them move. Not the ponies' fault--they have to move that way to get those heavy feet off the ground!

Be warned, there are those who believe that Miniatures should be allowed to show with shoes. I expect at some point in time that will come up in a rule change proposal.

 

[REO]

A big part of the problem is JUDGES place them first. Way back when, shaving minis muzzles down to the skin wasn't done. Someone did it & won then everyone else started doing it. The JUDGES dictate the trends. People will do whatever (IMO stupid) trend that it takes to win.

 

[txminipinto]

Actually, its not AMHR, but ASPC (which started AMHR). The tails are false, and yes, some are gingered as its still legal. Shoes....let me tell you about those shoes. There's a lot of work into a pair of modern shoes. They just don't slap some heavy pieces of iron on their soles and call it good. Angles, degrees, pads, and weight all go into consideration to get the perfect fit.

When it comes to the moderns, it has nothing to do with the judges. These are not "fads". You're looking at decades of tradition in showing these ponies. They take a considerable amount of work.

That said, you don't have to show them shod if you don't want to and if you don't want to put that much work into a pony, there are always the classics and foundations that are handled very much like the miniatures.

 

[drivinghoss]

Shoeing of any breed of horse is an art-form. The ponies that are shod have the best care of any horse and every trainer that is having horses shod is doing what he or she thinks is best for the horse.

All the horses at Congress that wore shoes were in compliance with the rules of the association.

As far as shoeing Minis, many of the minis need shoes because owners drive them on less than ideal surfaces. Besides the arena at AMHR nationals is harder than concrete, many minis are limping by the end of their class.

So why not shoe Minis to save them from the pain of hard surfaces, as long as the horse is not over 38" that would be fine.

Just an opinon,

 

[Sandy B]

I have no doubt that some minis BOTH under and over need shoes for physical well being. That is not the issue here! Its the extreme built up weighted shoeing. I have no doubt that the farriers do a good job on building these shoes for these "modern" classes. I can tell you that having that weight on their hooves is NOT healthy for the pony. Tradition, fads, "been doing it forever", etc...., does not mean its ok. It is extremely artificial. There is nothing prettier than seeing a pony or horse that has been bred to move, rock back and use those hocks and picks those knees up. It is gorgeous! But when you see those humongous weighted shoes on them to exaggerate it, it is just wrong on all levels.

It is the judges and owners faults for allowing this to continue. It is ridiculous the extremes that people will go to just to win a title or ribbon. I am not blind to helping a horse succeed with their God given ability in the performance ring. This weighted shoeing however, is wrong on many levels.

 

[heartkranch]

You have pics? I don't get the journal..

 

[Riverrose28]

You have pics? I don't get the journal..

You can view the magizine on line.

 

[Sharron]

Trying to explain the why's and wherefore's to some one that already has the mind set that it is cruel and unusual punishment for these ponies to carry "heavy" shoes, is like beating a dead horse! No amount of explanation, will convience some people that these ponies have to be CONFORMED correctly and have the NATURAL ABILITY to carry these shoes. And I can tell you that just because those shoes look heavy to you, they in essence most likely, don't weigh much more than a "keg" shoe. What you are seeing is a hoof that has been allowed to grow out to ENHANCE the NATURAL ABILITY of the pony to move in such a manner. If the pony doesn't have the natural ability to move big, than NO AMOUNT OF WEIGHT OF A SHOE, will produce the action. In most cases, and I can attest to the fact, When these ponies are trotting on the rail, you can barely hear their footfalls. But then as I said before trying to change someones mindset, is like beating a dead horse...nuf said!

 

[ahrobertspony]

Trend? TREND?

Pardon me while I wipe up the soda I just spit all over my computer screen. For anyone who might be new and who has had no experience w/ Shetlands, perhaps you will find the following helpful....

This shoeing? This is NOTHING compared to how Shetlands were shod back 60 years ago. Then, ALL the feet were extremely, extremely long and ALL the shoes were extremely, extremely heavy. Today, stock has progressed greatly. You will see many Moderns who don't carry feet of that length or shoes of that weight as they simply don't need it. Each owner ..the ones who invest heavily of their own time, energy, resources ... makes the decisions that work best for them. There are many options ... you can find a pony that doesn't need the shoeing to move ... or , you can engage in the Modern Pleasure division where the emphasis on motion is far, far less.

MODERN Shetlands are an entirely different athlete than Miniature Horses. The folks involved ... well many of them have been in the business longer than the Miniature Horse breed has officially existed.

And, as Sharron pointed out, these animals are the product of a much longer breeding arc than Minaitures. The way these ponies are built and trained and cared for allows them to wear the shoes. Sharron is also accurate that the majority of the shoes are probably no where nearly as heavy as you might assume they are from the pics.

When I look through this issue, I see many, many FEWER overshod ponies than when I look at the Congress coverage throughout the 50s ... which I have been doing a great deal lately for work for ASPC's Historical Committee.

Tails? Really ... not sure what anyone is referring to. In taking a quick glance through the issue in question, I saw exactly TWO ponies that had obviously been wearing a tail set. TWO. Of course, that is based on 30 years experience of dealing nearly exclusively with ponies such as this. I tell you ... there is way, way, way, way, way, way less non-fake, non-humane tails that there used to be. Everything else is that appears up is actually a false tail. Or it's a pony carrying a tail up naturally. Some of those MAY be due to ginger, but don't bet that is what you are seeing. TRUE show ponies will flag their tail just to show off ... THAT is what they were bred to do. AFTERALL, today's Moderns are the ultimate result of the association that began 123 years ... this is where many breeders in the late 1800s pointed the breed all that time ago ... when the started the ASPC, Inc., ... 83 years before the ASPC started the first miniature horse registry.

The ASPC Modern halter division moved to the use of false tails w/ a humane tail brace nearly 20 years ago ... few want to mess with nicking tails & the hassle of a tail set. Everyone involved wanted something more humane. Everyone jumped on the chance to do something that looked the same but took way, way, way, way less work while being more comfortable for the anials. Unfortunately, the appropriate use of the tail braces on halter ponies is a true art form ... and they end up looking silly when done wrong. However, done wrong they are still much easier & offer no negative impact on the ponies ... they look silly when done wrong but they don't hurt the pony.

And ... if you think the tails are "up" in the high crupper on the harness ponies ... then I invite you to actually visit a pony show. Tails are usually through the lower portion of the crupper ... effectively making them JUST the same as the crupper on a ... gasp ... Miniature Horse harness. The illusion of the "up" tail is then created above the top of the tail by attaching a pop can to the high crupper and putting the cap of the false tail over than. So .... again ... no harsh treatment of the ponies there either.

You have an opinion. You are welcome to it. After all, this in the USA and you have freedom of speech. Therefore, when I come on this forum next time ... and spread my opinion about some facet of the Miniature Horse business that I don't like, then I'm sure you'll be the first to grant me the right to speak.

If you are not interested in this type of pony ... or don't care for what is involved with it ... then I fully recommend you simply don't become a part of it.

For those of you truly interested in society ponies ... those traditions ... that phenomenal portion of the show pony world, you might want to check out pony sites such as www.societypony.com. Let's leave the MINIATURE HORSE forum on this Miniature Horse website devoted to Miniatures.

 

[Minimor]

As far as shoeing Minis, many of the minis need shoes because owners drive them on less than ideal surfaces. Besides the arena at AMHR nationals is harder than concrete, many minis are limping by the end of their class.So why not shoe Minis to save them from the pain of hard surfaces, as long as the horse is not over 38" that would be fine.

No, this topic isn’t about Miniatures being shod up—but in a way it is related to Miniatures anyway.

Shoes for minis—if you think that shoes for Minis to protect the feet of driving horses in the show ring are a good idea, please put a little more thought into it. As soon as you open the door to allow Minis to be shod for showing, you open the door to having them shod up just like the Modern ponies. Why? Because there is no way to enforce weight limits for shoes. The Modern and Modern Pleasure rules have no specification for a maximum shoe weight. For that matter, neither do the Classic pony rules, but people generally do not shoe their Classics with heavy shoes because it is not traditional for Classics to be shod that way. If the rules were changed to allow Minis to wear shoes in the show ring, I would bet that there would be no weight limit specified for them. Why? Because it’s extremely difficult to enforce. Yes, you can specify a weight limit for shoes, but then you have to enforce that rule. In order to enforce this rule, every sanctioned show must have a farrier with a certified scale. That farrier must be on the show grounds for the duration of the show; in case there is a protest the farrier must be immediately available to pull the shoe and weigh it—the show cannot be held up while a farrier is called in. This would result in the shows having to pay a farrier to be on the grounds the entire time the show is going on, and obviously this would place a financial hardship on at least some of the shows. I can just imagine the complaining we would hear if people were able to start putting weighted shoes on their Miniatures! Look at the grumbling about the Western/Country/Pleasure driving classes now, with people saying that horses are being shown in the wrong divisions. Imagine what those divisions would look like if some people could start shoeing up their horses to enhance movement! Still think shoes would be a good thing for the Mini show ring?

 

[disneyhorse]

I think you have gotten some excellent replies from Sharron and Ahrobertspony, both of whom are exhibitors who have shown these very ponies we are talking about.

I used to have a MUCH more negative mindset about "ponies with action"... I assumed it was ALL pretty much man-made and therefore it MUST negatively affect the horse. However, after carefully getting to know these ponies up close and personal, and raising them from foals, I have discovered there is MUCH more inbred talent than I ever imagined.

The above pony is pictured at two years old, had him since three months old. At the time of this photo, he had never had shoes on his hinds, and just had KEG SHOES (the exact same ones you would put on any saddle horse) on his front feet. No pads, no long bars. NO long foot as I hope you can see.

I had NEVER worked this pony in bungees, he has NEVER had the SLIGHTEST bit of any irritant like ginger under his tail.

And yet, when asked to trot in hand (with my husband, who does not show horses!!!) down the street in front of the barn, THIS is how the pony liked to trot. He was BRED to pick up his feet and flag his tail! WHERE is the abuse here?

So... until you get intimate with what actually goes on, you just sound very ignorant to those who are. I was there once. Open your mind, check it out, and then make up your mind.

I will agree that it is FAR more expensive to nick tails and keep them in tail sets, and pay hundreds of dollars on sets of shoes... than to buckle a fake tail on top and put simpler shoes on... obviously most exhibitors agree because THAT is the trend that is happening, NOT the other way around!

Andrea

 

[muffntuf]

I am not surprised at your reaction to what you saw in the Journal. I show in the Classic, Modern Pleasure and ASPR divisions. I have showed with and without shoes on all three divisions. It is as many have already said - the unique breeding of the past 123 years that have brought us to this point in the Modern and ASPR divisions performance.

During the past 5 years I have shod and shown clean, depended upon the pony. But only once have I shod past a keg shoe, and the shoes came off after a bit of lounging as it took away from the pony's performance. It did not enhance it.

It is an art and it takes much consideration and thought to get the right angles, right length of foot, and especially the balance of all four feet when shod to allow the pony to perform at peak.

And it takes a long time to get a Modern, Modern Pleasure or ASPR to its full potential, many years go into their career.

Hopefully you can take in the ASPC part of a show and watch them, ask questions. If you get a chance, you should see their liberty classes - yes Modern Pleasure, Moderns and ASPR have liberty classes- in these you can truly see the athleticism, charisma and true talent. It will open your eyes!

 

[Sandy B]

I have re-read all my posts and can not find where I knock the way these ponies move? I am all for breeding natural ability and movement. As Blackdraft's pictures shows a lovely 2 year old in regular keg shoes with incredible front and rear action. That is AWESOME! I do not have issues with a pony being shod if needed with a regular keg shoes or a normal pad due to hoof problems or soundness issues. I am all too familiar with built up shoes and the art of allowing the hoof to grow longer as I was in the Morgan horse breed for many years and witnessed a lot. Oh and yes bustles and ginger, firecrackers, smoke, surgical tubing/bungees, chains and weights. I guarantee you those built up shoes on those ponies weigh more than a regular keg shoe. My farrier (who is incredible) does shoe a few Saddle Seat Horses and used to shoe a few other Park Morgans. We have talked in depth about this and I am aware of the limits pushed to enhance the "natural" ability.

You all have gotten so way off topic in defending your Shetlands ponies that I wonder if all Shetland exhibitors and breeders are like you guys. It has put a sour taste in my mouth. You have taken my words and twisted them to what you want to hear. SO I am going to say again- First of all I am not talking about Shetlands back in the 50's, I am talking about the couple pictures (one in particular) in the current issue of the Journal (in regards to shoes). Second, I never said that a pony that is trotting with action and flagging its tail is abusive. I never said I have problems with "false" tails, I do have a problem with ginger.

So you guys can all call me ignorant, and sling the insults at my supposed lack of knowledge and I will just grin and shake my head. I would like to see you walk around in wedge heels 24/7 and then run around several minutes a day and then have someone put some ginger up your buns and run around some more in those wedge heels. Check back with me in a couple years and we will see how you are physically holding up.

One last thing- The one thing I have alway admired about all pony breeds and our wonderful miniatures, is that they have good tough feet and rarely need shoes. It is one of the advantages of pony breeds.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

I agree! The hoofs look stupid on such beautiful horses.

Im a mini equine farrier and to me, the hoofs are unbalanced with that type of angles.

ONLY Just my opinion.

Really, for someone who can not use proper English, you expect someone to believe that you are qualified to make that opinion. Hoofs . . . that really shows how intelligent you are for making comments on something you know nothing about. And pray tell where did you get your certification to allow yourself to title yourself as a "mini equine farrier"?

 

[Crabtree Farm]

I have no doubt that some minis BOTH under and over need shoes for physical well being. That is not the issue here! Its the extreme built up weighted shoeing. I have no doubt that the farriers do a good job on building these shoes for these "modern" classes. I can tell you that having that weight on their hooves is NOT healthy for the pony. Tradition, fads, "been doing it forever", etc...., does not mean its ok. It is extremely artificial. There is nothing prettier than seeing a pony or horse that has been bred to move, rock back and use those hocks and picks those knees up. It is gorgeous! But when you see those humongous weighted shoes on them to exaggerate it, it is just wrong on all levels.

It is the judges and owners faults for allowing this to continue. It is ridiculous the extremes that people will go to just to win a title or ribbon. I am not blind to helping a horse succeed with their God given ability in the performance ring. This weighted shoeing however, is wrong on many levels.

Sandy, I am simply curious to know what you believe are the weights involved with these "heavy" shoes?

 

[Reble]

Nice moving horse.

How tall would this one be?

 

[cretahillsgal]

I think I know which couple of pictures in the Journal you are refering to Sandy. And I agree with you that I think that letting their feet grow that long is abusive. A little length would be normal, not double the length that they should be. Imagine going to someones farm and seeing any other breed of horse with feet like that. We would be likely to call the humane society for neglect. I don't care if it is a shetland, hackney, quarter horse or thoroughbred. The anatomy of the hoof is the same for all the breeds. I think letting them grow the way some of them do, has to put strain on their legs and joints that will cause pain or problems later on in life.

I don't know anything about the shoes that are used on the shetlands so I won't comment on those.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

I think I know which couple of pictures in the Journal you are refering to Sandy. And I agree with you that I think that letting their feet grow that long is abusive. A little length would be normal, not double the length that they should be. Imagine going to someones farm and seeing any other breed of horse with feet like that. We would be likely to call the humane society for neglect. I don't care if it is a shetland, hackney, quarter horse or thoroughbred. The anatomy of the hoof is the same for all the breeds. I think letting them grow the way some of them do, has to put strain on their legs and joints that will cause pain or problems later on in life.

I don't know anything about the shoes that are used on the shetlands so I won't comment on those.

But would it not be called abusive to have people cut their miniatures hooves down till they bleed or have no heel left, just so they can be measured in? But you also have to realize you can not condem everyone as for the likes or preferences of a few.