I would like to ask a religous ?

[Buckskin gal]

Hi Nancy, As you say, I am sure you can find an answer to every question asked of you, in the bible so would you answer this question? Why are stories, of the same event, told differently within the bible? Did God tell these men to write them differently or did they just do it? I am sure if you believe the bible to be of the truth you must have questioned for yourself, many things that it says. People can't help but notice the contradictions in the text ......an event can be told in a particular order but later it can state

that the same event happened in a different order. It might say there were two of something in one place and elswhere it will state there was 14 of that same thing! It may say the Moabites did something, and later it says that it was the Midianites who did it!! Check out the two different stories in the bible of the creation of Earth!! Why, if God is the author of the bible would there not be consistency in what is written? Thanks, Mary

 

[stormo41]

Yes I have had this happen to me, My family stopped going to church when I was younger and I took conformation classes when I was 12-13 (i think ). After that I never thought much about it, just stopped going, then when high school came I discovered that no matter what if "he" is really is up there he should judge me not for spending my Sunday at church, or giving the chruch 10% of my income, but rather for the person I am. I may not go to church and I may doubt that he really is up there, But I am a good person. Of course I have my down falls, harsh langauge amoung those who don't mind (I might slip here and there

: ), A bad temper that i have calmed down in the past few years but it surfaces every so often i am half Italian after all :lol: . Gernraly speeking I'm a nice person, I help when and where I can, I believe in strong a family and I never once in this day and age did I fall into smoking or dugs or drinking. I am working hard with my photography and the education I need to make a living off of it. I don't see anything wrong with the way I act that should banish to me to the underworld if it is a real place, and if I do go so what I'm living my life right now not my death.

I hope you will see things the same way, I am not telling you to give up faith, but rather to take a break if you need to. I think you can have faith with out doing all the sunday rituals and following every rule. I remember the paster telling us that from the moment you are born you have sinned in the eye of god. I hope that if such a god is real that he can over look the sins i have commented and see the good things I have done in my life, how I care for people close to me at all costs, and most of all how I sand up for myself. If god id out there then we must be on a levle where he knows I mean well, and maybe one day he will call to me and on that day i will know for sure that he is out there looking down on me and watching over me.

-Vanessa

 

[Ojai Minis]

I know of nowhere, where it says we will inheret the heavens (other than the 144,000 that shall reside by Christ's side).

I am not trying to start any kind of debate, just looking for an explaination. Thank you.

Who are the 144,000 people?How are they chosen? I find this topic fasinating

Liz V.

 

[Ashley]

Rabbit im not sure how to take that.....but ok.

As for the rest

:

 

[looney2n]

Karla, it's obvious that you really seek for the answers. God is using you and that is awesome. I can relate to the fact that there are a lot differences in the Bible, but after reading the apostles renditions of each ones experiences, then putting them together, you're right, they mesh and the ending of the story is the same. I know that I have compiled a file CABINET of things that I would like Him to clear up for me when I see the Lord. But again, that is where faith comes in to play. Thank you for your dedication to helping others. God is really gonna bless you BIG! :aktion033:

 

[Buckskin gal]

No it doesn't help me understand why God would not state all he wanted said in the same order! I do understand that different men wrote their version of an event but IF it is God's word then I do logically think it should all be said the same and therer would not be contradictions. This is why it is difficult for some people to believe what the bible says or that it is God's word. True, there is meaning within but it was men who wrote the words and the words may not be what God meant them to be and we have to be careful of that. Yes, two different people could be told the same thing and each hear it differently but to truly believe something there has to be validity, for me, to believe it. After all God did give us a mind to think with and to logically figure things out for ourselves. Do we believe in what some men wrote or do we believe what comes directly from God to us? I would much rather have a close relationship with my creator and listen to him than to listen to someone that is not sure of things ......Teach of love rather than teach what men who didn't all get the story the same. Even your bible study programs are only interpretations of what yet another person perception of the bible. I do think discussions of this nature are interesting because each can give their opinion of what they believe and no one can actually say it is wrong because only god knows. God does not give life and then not give back to the person who lives it a homecoming. We are not to judge the other person ...our job is to live the life that god gave us. You know I wouldn't mind meeting Hitler in heaven at all because I would like to know why god chose the life for him that he had to live. JMHO Mary

"I am not a Revelations reader because I just don't get the symbolism. My husband loves reading it and trying to put the pieces together.

I took a class in it from a former pastor, but he was way smarter than the students and everything he said wen over our heads in a hurry. He was passionate about it, but jeepers it's just too much for me to grasp.

Sooo, that's why I'm going to copy what it ways in the study part of my Bible. My Bible is a Life Application Study Bible. (I also love my Women's Devotional one). Here's what it says: "Chapter 13 described the onslaught of evil that will occur when Satan and his helpers control the world. Chapter 14 gives a glimpse into eternity to show believers what awaits them if they endure. The Lamb is the Messiah. Mount Zion, often another name for Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, is contrasted with the worldly empire. The 144,000 represent believers who have endured persecutions on earth and now are ready to enjoy the eternal benefits and blessings of life with God forever. The three angels contrast the destiny of believers with that of unbelievers."

Okay, I'd better copy Revelations 6-10 for you because that's where the angel part is. I have to admit the words and images are unsettling to me. Makes my heart beat a little faster, you know?

6-10 "Then I saw another angle flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water. (8) A second angel followed and said, 'Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.' (9) A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand (my addition---there's a lot in here about the mark of the beast--no one knows exactly what it is--but some think it may have to do with money and how things are bought--that unless you have the mark you will not be able to purchase food--but in order to get the mark you have to deny God), he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath."

Here's what the study part says: Some believe that this is a final, worldwide appeal to all people to recognize the one true God. No one will have the excuse of never hearing God's truth. Others, however, see this as an announcement of judgment rather that as an appeal. The people of the world have had their chance to proclaim their allegiance to God, and now God's great judgment is about to begin. If you are reading this, you have already heard God's truth. You know that God's final judgment will not be put off forever. Have you joyfully received the everlasting Good News? Have you confessed your sins and trusted Christ to save you? If so, you have nothing to fear from God's judgment. The Judge of all the earth is your Savior!

I hope that's helping some who had questions on that part.

Why are stories, of the same event, told differently within the bible? Did God tell these men to write them differently or did they just do it? I am sure if you believe the bible to be of the truth you must have questioned for yourself, many things that it says. People can't help but notice the contradictions in the text ......an event can be told in a particular order but later it can state

Mary, my pastor has studied this so much--the writer of the books, etc. I'll email her this question because her answer will be more technical than mine. For me, there's never a contradiction that changes the outcome of the story. If it's an order--something minor that doesn't alter the main idea of the story, then it doesn't matter to me. It's the same as several folks watching an event but each telling it from their own perspective. In my Bible there's a page that compares the stories in Matthew, Mark , Luke and John and explains the different details. It's nothing that's caused me to question what they say is true--and they all get to the same end. Does that help?

There are parts of the Bible that contradict to me, such as one part says all those who believe in Jesus will be saved and their sins forgiven. But then in other parts (I should look them up but the dishes are waiting...and my daughter needs a ride to work soon) it says all Christians will be judged. So, I asked Pastor. She said we are all forgiven, but she feels God will chat with each of us about our decisions during our earthly life. She says she'll be with Him awhile for she's done enough to give them plenty to talk about.

During SS this spring I learned another interpretation of the vineyard story...and our pastor said she does not like the idea that if Hitler happened to confess and become a Christian before his death, that she does not like the idea of him sitting next to her at any heavenly banquets....

So, all believers have questions...even the pastors. but the faith doesn't let the questions steer us away...just dive into the Bible again.

And Dr Dobson says we are NOT supposed to understand everything. We just have to stick the unanswered questions in a folder and ask them when we get to the other side. Again, faith comes into play here, in accepting there will not be answers to all our questions. Marty has some big ones.

I've got lots to do for a bit, but I'll check in later to see if all this is helping or a hindrance. :lol:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Whatever the Bible says, a book written by other men, other humans, not God, even though I do not believe and will never believe that Jesus is my saviour, I shall not be barred from Heaven.

That idea is ludicrous in the extreme and totally unacceptable.

Jesus is NOT the only way ot God.

He IS the way you have chosen, and I respect your choice.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I too believe no person will be turned away from God....he is accepting regardless of how rebellious he made us. If you believe what the Bible says then one has to believe that He did intend Adam and Eve to rebel, otherewise he would not have made it possible. Why would God create them in his devine image and then forbid them the fruit whose attraction would give them devine power? [ the Bible does say that man was created in his image] ? Would God share some devine quality with humans, only [He didn't create other creatures in his image] and then treat them as subordinates? According to what the Bible says, God told Adam and Eve to rule the other creatures, and then he communicates with them basically with commands! Can we really be surprised when we find out that Adam and Eve did disobey when the scene was set for them to disobey? Adam and Eve had no reason not to believe the serpent for God had told them they ruled the other creatures and they had no experience at all against dealing with evil which only God could have allowed into the garden. Sin didn't even originate on earth, according to the Bible, because it says it was a fallen angel that first sinned. Just something to think about and yes this is only one interpretation of something the Bible says. If every Christian even believed the same there wouldn't be hundresd of Christian churches!! Woudl love to hear some other opinions about how they interpret the words of the Bible written by men who could not even agree on what they thought God told them.

: Mary

 

[Ojai Minis]

Okay, the 144,000 verse is in Revelation 14:1-4. It reads "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

So this sounds like only 144,000 men got to stay? And what? The rest went where? I'm not trying to start anything as I do find religion fasinating, but this kind of stuff just doesn't sound right. What if there were more than 144,000 men who had not defiled themselves with women? And what does that mean, defiled? And why just men? This are how I'm interperting this. These are the kinds of things that just make it all sound silly (I'm not trying to put down anyone who believes) I am not a Christian but I have my own spirtiual beliefs. I try to treat others as I would like to be treated and that if there is a god, I don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven or be reincarnated or whatever kind of good after life there may be. I do not believe in He-ll or Satan and I refuse to live in fear of what might be if I'm not a "Christian". I find it really sad that people kill in the name of religion. I find it sad that even though it might not be said out loud but unless one is "saved" we are judged and going to he-ll. So, to me that is judgement, in the name of religion. Again, it's all just fasinating to me. I have checked out all kinds of different religions as I felt I "needed" religion to be happy but I have realized that I am my own God and I make me happy and if I live a life that feels right, good and clean to me, I'm good to go to whatever might be the afterlife. I truly respect those and their beliefs. I know that great comfort is found in whatever religion one believes in. And I'm all for that. But I refuse to go on blind faith. I do believe in God but probably not in the way a lot do. My belief is that when I go, I will get to be with my beloved animals once again.

: My dad's belief is that you die, you get put in the ground and the worms eat you

He seems to be fine with that.

Respectfully,

Liz V.

 

[Miniv]

This is a good example...... How can anyone take every word in the Bible literally??? (Science has proven that.)

How can anyone deny that the Bible wasn't penned by human beings (MEN) with personal religious agendas? (Pork is not soiled and neither are women!)

However, no one can deny that there are many values and special truths within the Writings that transcend all cultures. No matter whether one is Christian or not, they should not be discounted.

I read the Bible and value it. I am a Christian. But I do not read it with Blinders on.

I am also a student and keep an open mind. I have read other teachings written by other cultures and am thrilled by the similarities. I have also read translated writings of scriptures that were editted from our present Bible.

God gave us a mind to explore with. God gave us gifts to use. And Jesus is quoted as saying -- whatever I can do, you can do.........and he did some amazing things.

MA

 

[ChrystalPaths]

God gave us a mind to explore with. God gave us gifts to use. And Jesus is quoted as saying -- whatever I can do, you can do.........and he did some amazing things.

MA

I have stayed away from this topic, but have found it facinating and am in great awe of you all for keeping it civil and interesting. The one quote that has the most impact for me is this one above by MaryAnn. I think, in a nut shell, it says it all.

 

[Nancy G]

I got this in an e-mail today. it is beautiful!

He is light, love, longevity, and Lord.

He is goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, and God.

He is Holy, Righteous, mighty, powerful, and pure.

His ways are right,

His word is eternal,

His will is unchanging, and His mind is on me.

He is Jesus my Savior,

He is my guide, and He is my peace!

He is my Joy,

He is my comfort,

He is my Lord, and He rules my life!

I serve Him because His bond is love,

His burden is light, and His goal for me is abundant life.

I follow Him because He is the wisdom of the wise,

the power of the powerful,

the ancient of days, the ruler of rulers, the leader of leaders, the overseer of the overcomers, and is to come. And if that seems impressive to you, try this for size.

His goal is a relationship with ME!

He will never leave me,

never forsake me,

never mislead me,

never forget me,

never overlook me and

never cancel my appointment in His appointment book!

When I fall, He lifts me up!

When I fail, He forgives!

When I am weak, He is strong!

When I am lost, He is the way!

When I am afraid, He is my courage!

When I stumble, He steadies me!

When I am hurt, He heals me!

When I am broken, He mends me!

When I am blind, He leads me!

When I am hungry, He feeds me!

When I face trials, He is with me!

When I face persecution, He shields me!

When I face problems, He comforts me!

When I face loss, He provides for me!

When I face Death, He carries me Home! :aktion033: :aktion033:

:

: :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[Ojai Minis]

However, no one can deny that there are many values and special truths within the Writings that transcend all cultures. No matter whether one is Christian or not, they should not be discounted.

I am also a student and keep an open mind. I have read other teachings written by other cultures and am thrilled by the similarities. I have also read translated writings of scriptures that were editted from our present Bible.

God gave us a mind to explore with. God gave us gifts to use. And Jesus is quoted as saying -- whatever I can do, you can do.........and he did some amazing things.

MA

I have learned from the spiritual teachings I have lightly studied is that the end message is pretty much the same. Love is the key. Forgivness, (especially of yourself), and that miracles can happen. And not to just "Christians". I think we all have the ability to do amazing things if we set out minds to it And if it's with the help of God, Jesus or Buddha or whatever, that is awesome!

Liz V.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Ive been reading and waiting for dirrection to post again. I really liked this part of one post because it really fits.[/SIZE]

"Whew! I am so glad I do not share that opinion and that I can embrace it as my guidance to Godly living and the way to eternal life. Do we need to be careful to use the words in context, to understand to what group of people the words were written and their circumstances at the time? Yes. But, it is and always will be the living word of God to me. For if I didn't trust it for answers to how to live my life, who would I trust? Scary thought."

I have had to trust and believe and obey the scriptures so many times in my life and because I have I have experienced Peace that passeth all understanding, healings to both my body and soul and clear direction in my life that was not given before I gave my life over to Jesus and his will. Until and unless you have that love of Jesus and his gift of the Holy Spirit to live in your heart, you will not be able to understand the things that Karla, Nancy and others are trying to explain. We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. He is perfect and holy and in mans natural state we are unworthy of being in His presence. Thats why God invented GRACE. Gods Riches At Christs Expense. I know He lives because He lives in me and I can love and care for others in His name. Those who say the Bible isnt true have not read it thru, seen the prophesies thant have been and are being fulfilled even as we speak. These are glorious times for believers because we are seeing the fulfillment of the last of the prophesies before our very eyes! Rejoice and look up for your redemption draws nigh! Karla is a great teacher.....she is in the perfect profession!!! Your class at school is very lucky ! I cant read my Bible now because of my vision and to go online and have the computer read to me while Im trying to post here proved too difficult. Im thankful that God has used Karla and Nancy and Looney to get the message clearly stated.

I can only speak from my experience and tell you that Jesus is the living Christ, The Messiah, the Lord of my life because His love and light have been evidanced in my life, the longer I love Him, the sweeter He grows the song says and that is true!

Regarding the Apostle's different take on the same situations, Luke was a physician and what you read in his Gospel is more"clinical" or visceral, more details, John was Jesus best friend and his Gospel is more emotional. Peter was a hot head... he loved the Lord with a passion that the others may have lacked and it sometimes got him in trouble like in the garden when he cut off the soldiers ear and Christ replaced it. He was fretful and thats why he denied Jesus three times. Each man wrote from his perspective so that all men everywhere would see a part of themself in one of their renditions and realize that Christ died for all... not just the ones like John or Paul or whoever.

This has been a very civil and interesting thread.... Nice to see we can all still discuss without tearing each other down as was said.

Lyn

 

[looney2n]

VERY well said Lyn J. That is the type of 'stick your neck out' attitude that we, as followers of Christ, are expected to show, God Bless you BIG

 

[Ojai Minis]

[SIZE=14pt]I have had to trust and believe and obey the scriptures so many times in my life and because I have I have experienced Peace that passeth all understanding, healings to both my body and soul and clear direction in my life that was not given before I gave my life over to Jesus and his will. Until and unless you have that love of Jesus and his gift of the Holy Spirit to live in your heart, you will not be able to understand the things that Karla, Nancy and others are trying to explain. We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. He is perfect and holy and in mans natural state we are unworthy of being in His presence. Thats why God invented GRACE. Gods Riches At Christs Expense. I know He lives because He lives in me and I can love and care for others in His name. Those who say the Bible isnt true have not read it thru, seen the prophesies thant have been and are being fulfilled even as we speak. [/SIZE]

Lyn

Lyn,

With all due respect, this is the kind of stuff that turns me off from Christianity. It sounds so judgmental and he-ll and brimstone. Where is the love? And respect for others opinions on their own spirituality? I do not feel I have sinned. I have made mistakes, and God knows, I'm going to make many more. I try to learn form them, forgive myself, and move on. I truly respect that you find comfort in your beliefs but to say that unless we believe the way you do, we are doomed is just plain dispectful of others. JMHO.

Liz V.

 

[Buckskin gal]

We can all be thankful that our creator loves us all, no matter what. He did not make one better than another and I really am thankful our creator gave us the ability to think for ourselves. What is godly living other than treating all people with the same respect as we want and giving love? As for the Bible having all the answers for everyone, it doesn't. There are many many people who have the utmost respect and love for others and they did not learn this from the bible. It can be learned from living and the intelligence and feelings out creator gave us. We, after all, according to the Bible, were created in his image so it is those who read the Bible who should know this the best. Even though I was raised a Christian, millions and millions of people are not Christians and I would not be Christ like if I were ever to say that they will not have a place in heaven with their creator any more than I will. After all, it is not what we do here on earth that gives us entry to heaven, it is what Christ did. For those who just seek a reward, why is thst necessary....isn't living a good life reward enough and then if we do get more, we can just enjoy it? Just my humble opinion, Mary

[SIZE=14pt]Ive been reading and waiting for dirrection to post again. I really liked this part of one post because it really fits.[/SIZE]

"Whew! I am so glad I do not share that opinion and that I can embrace it as my guidance to Godly living and the way to eternal life. Do we need to be careful to use the words in context, to understand to what group of people the words were written and their circumstances at the time? Yes. But, it is and always will be the living word of God to me. For if I didn't trust it for answers to how to live my life, who would I trust? Scary thought."

I have had to trust and believe and obey the scriptures so many times in my life and because I have I have experienced Peace that passeth all understanding, healings to both my body and soul and clear direction in my life that was not given before I gave my life over to Jesus and his will. Until and unless you have that love of Jesus and his gift of the Holy Spirit to live in your heart, you will not be able to understand the things that Karla, Nancy and others are trying to explain. We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. He is perfect and holy and in mans natural state we are unworthy of being in His presence. Thats why God invented GRACE. Gods Riches At Christs Expense. I know He lives because He lives in me and I can love and care for others in His name. Those who say the Bible isnt true have not read it thru, seen the prophesies thant have been and are being fulfilled even as we speak. These are glorious times for believers because we are seeing the fulfillment of the last of the prophesies before our very eyes! Rejoice and look up for your redemption draws nigh! Karla is a great teacher.....she is in the perfect profession!!! Your class at school is very lucky ! I cant read my Bible now because of my vision and to go online and have the computer read to me while Im trying to post here proved too difficult. Im thankful that God has used Karla and Nancy and Looney to get the message clearly stated.

I can only speak from my experience and tell you that Jesus is the living Christ, The Messiah, the Lord of my life because His love and light have been evidanced in my life, the longer I love Him, the sweeter He grows the song says and that is true!

Regarding the Apostle's different take on the same situations, Luke was a physician and what you read in his Gospel is more"clinical" or visceral, more details, John was Jesus best friend and his Gospel is more emotional. Peter was a hot head... he loved the Lord with a passion that the others may have lacked and it sometimes got him in trouble like in the garden when he cut off the soldiers ear and Christ replaced it. He was fretful and thats why he denied Jesus three times. Each man wrote from his perspective so that all men everywhere would see a part of themself in one of their renditions and realize that Christ died for all... not just the ones like John or Paul or whoever.

This has been a very civil and interesting thread.... Nice to see we can all still discuss without tearing each other down as was said.

Lyn

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I trust in God and I trust in myself to find the way.

I do not need Jesus or the bible to tell me what to do, I listen to God and cut out all the middle men.

How can this be wrong??

I do not believe Jesus Christ is my saviour.

I certainly do not believe the bible is the living word of God, there is no way it can be, I find the concept naive and ridiculous.

I will NOT be barred from heaven nor turned away form God, my beliefs are true and i hold to them and I live by them.

They are as valid as any Christian belief.

God loves ALL of his creations, God does not make bargains (how I wish He did!!) God does not turn away from us when we are wilful, and God does not exclude us for our beliefs.

The way to heaven is NOT exclusively through Jesus, it is through GOD, alone.

 

[Windstorm Minis]

Hi all - I have a question and unless I totally missed it - I don't see anything about it in these threads.

I am not a scholar of the Bible as in I cannot quote verse and chapters and such, but I was wondering how has the findings of the writings of Judas affected - if they have at all - your beliefs in the writings in the Bible.

It is my understanding that Judas has long been condemend for betraying Jesus, but now his writings indicate that he was told by Jesus to betray him. If that is the truth, then doesn't that make parts of the Bible untrue? If so, can there be other parts that are also not true?

This has been bothering me since I found out about the discovery of the writings and would like to hear your input.

Thanks.

 

[Windstorm Minis]

I saw it on the National Geographic Website - had pics of the writings and all...I'm going to go the site again and see if there is anything new.