I would like to ask a religous ?

[SWA]

:saludando:

 

[nootka]

I'm with you, Ashley, as long as they don't try to "save" me from "myself" as evil as I may be, I am fine.

I don't particularly like being "condemned" but I deal with it as they are only doing what they were taught and believe. No biggie either way we all feel like we have the truth.

I can't see that as being wrong...to live and do decently and burn in "H" b/c of it? wow...seems a little "arrogant" on the deity's part at least this is how I feel and if they are that way, they have no business pretending to be "perfect."

Liz

 

[Buckskin gal]

Marty, I am so sorry that you feel God has forsaken you, but if you know that God doesn't make mistakes you must know that he hasn't forsaken you. I do understand that there are people who think it is God who "takes" our loved ones from us but I don't believe it. How can God be blamed when it was the actions of one person that caused Michael's death? I know, we were both raised as Catholics and taught that God is all powerful and yet, we know from experience, he will not take matters into his own hands when it comes to returning our loved ones to us once they are gone. I do understand how anyone can become confused about God's part in our loses...but as we learn, we find that we are here to learn and some of the things we have to learn is very difficult. I think one of the reasons that people often leave organized religion is because what is taught is often confusing. I have asked myself over and over as to how a loving God can let such horrible things happen. I have had to do a lot of thinking about this ...I hate to see people suffer and it breaks my heart and yet I know deep down that we are not here to understand everything....only here to learn to do the best we can with any given situation. There are no promises in life that everything will be easy, or all fun or all good and yet many expect it and become disappointed when difficulties happen. You have the power...the power to bring your family back together, you have the power to see that there is happiness again in your family and you know that is what Michael would want. Don't let the actions of that one person destroy your life. I hope ypou will pursue the goal of making people more aware of the tragedies which come from drunkeness and drugs. I know it can't be asy for you but you can do it Marty....you have the power. Hugs, Mary

I will admit that I have loved Jesus Christ all my life and worshiped God and devoted myself completely and never lost faith until now.

I feel that God has forsaken me.

Lord I must have a word with You

and I know that You know me well

I don't mince words with You at all

and there's plenty I want to tell

I know I've been quite a work in progress

and I know I've messed up many things

but haven't I tried real hard to honor You

and revered You always as my king?

Lord I know that You don't make mistakes

but something here's gone very wrong

Michael was not here with me today

to dance or sing his favorite songs

You know my boy has struggled in life

in so many different ways

he finally found himself on the right road

and we were having so many happy days

Michael had so much to live for

and so much left to give

his future was looking so bright ahead

and we all needed him to live

He wasn't doing anything wrong

he never hurt anyone at all

he suffered inhumanely in such a cruel way

didn't You hear me call?

I screamed for You to help us

I begged for You to make it all cease

I cried for You to intervene

and let us return to live in peace

You have a whole army of angels

and why couldn't You spare us just one

an angel of mercy to hold my boy's body together

and angel to help save my son

You do not need my Michael

Lord please give me back my son

we have so many things left to do

we were having so much fun

Take the other person

and do with him what You will

punish him the way you are punishing us now

and make this earth stand still

He's a very bad person

and this is something that You know

he has hurt many and murdered once before

where did the justice in this world go?

How can a person like this even exsist

and be allowed to walk around free

what is wrong with this earthy law

when he's loose on a technicality?

I'm sorry that I want vengence now

and it is supposed to be only Your's

but I am only a desperate mother

looking for some kind of cure

There is nothing left of my family

my husband stays by a cold grave

my little boy Dan can't hardly speak

and there's nothing left of us to save

Lord, please give us back our yestarday

when things were going so good

stop the world and turn back time

there must be a way that You could

You can make miracles happen

I need one to happen today

Fix this pain inside I have

and take all this bad away

Lord let me wake up in the morning

with Michael standing over my bed

let me see and hear him again

or just take me with You instead

But let Michael have his life back

right here right now on earth

it wasn't all that long ago

that we rejoiced at his birth

I cannot go on any more without Michael

why can't you see

please find a way to help us

send my son back to me.

 

[runamuk]

If it's heaven you wish for, being good isn't enough. According to the Bible, there will be many many surprised folks who thought being good was enough, and find out differently. Accepting Jesus is all it takes, it's a free gift. The "being good" comes with the territory for most. Well, there's always the attempt to let little lights shine as best we can. For we are all sinners.

John 14:1-6 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place I am going." Thomas said to him, 'Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?' Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE (caps mine) comes to the Father except through me."

Two points/questions

first exactly WHAT is meant by accept jesus? I have heard at least 20 different ways and all of them are right (supposedly) yet all the other ways are wrong

:

:

And that second verse Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE (caps mine) comes to the Father except through me."

this leaves lots of room for interpretation.....to me jesus is saying to live ones life as he has lived and to follow his teaching.....nowhere in that statement does it say to worship him as a god.

I am not saying you are wrong as you are firm in your own belief.........I am merely placing an example of why I firmly believe each soul is solely responsible for finding their own way to faith and belief.

 

[SWA]

:saludando:

 

[SWA]

:saludando:

 

[nootka]

On a similar vein, though we are wandering far afield from the original post/inquiry, did anyone watch the 30 days episode tonight?

It was my first and I almost laughed when I saw it was Atheist/Christian. I don't know why I thought Atheist was such a negative term, but I looked up the actual definition afterward and it's merely a denial of the existence of god or gods. I have always felt myself to be more agnostic though I would say Agnostic with Atheistic leanings.

I had no idea people were so discouraged by the fact that they can't "pin down" a source of beliefs. Is not respect for life and loving enough?

Spirituality doesn't have to have its roots in organized religion, IMO. The definitions of this word include god in some of their interpretations, but not all do.

I do have faith in an intangible current in our lives, some force greater than ourselves but I believe it is the human spirit above all opposed to a single force determining our fate based on our behavior.

It is always interesting to me if frustrating, to read others' beliefs and I understand what that Christian family was grappling with in hosting the Atheist woman in their home. I was glad to see they were so accepting of each other, ultimately, and proof that being good human beings is the basis to our ability to get along and survive here.

Liz

 

[SWA]

:saludando:

 

[SWA]

:saludando:

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I grew up in an Anabaptist church, which is an off shoot of the menonite church. We are very fundimental and belive the scripture as it is written. Even then there is lots open to interpretation, some things we follow that are tradition not doctrine... Anabaptist only means re-baptized or baptized again and they came from the Lutheran church thru the amish and menonites. Anyway that is irelavent. (sp) I am aa christian. The word means Christ like, a follower of Christ. I am not locked into believeing that only my denomination is right. I believe that individuals who accept Christ and his teachings to be Lord of their lives and by accepting his gift of love, His death on the cross to cover my sin because "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." We become "good" people and do "good" works when we make an effort to be Christ like. If we see the world thru Jesus eyes we will love God with all our hearts and minds and we will love our neighbors as our selves ( the golden rule personified). Organized religion becomes a place for me to be with those of like minded faith, to strengthen my faith and my knowledge of Gods word. Some organized religion is wrong, If it becomes as a cult following blindly after a person not Christ then it is wrong. Jesus is in my heart. I know it, I have seen evidance of that in my life. I have seen and ben party to miracles that I know came only from God. Thats how I know He is real.[/SIZE]

I have seen Bible prophesy being fulfilled expecially now. If you have a Bible or can get the Bible on line read about the end time prophesies in Ezekiel, Isiah, Daniel, and Revelations, although that is a hard one with lots of symbolism. The middle east wars etc are prophesied there exactly as they are happening now. History and Biology PROVE the Word of God is true so if part of it is true then all of it must be. My job on earth is to proclaim the gospel because if we dont speak the word then, the Bible says "the stones will cry out"/

Sorry for so long but I felt compelled to write it.

Lyn

 

[runamuk]

HUH........I went I read some and I had no idea that jesus was the creator which is exactly what it says on that site.....that is a completely new twist for me..............

I am glad that you have your faith and that these discussions strengthen it

: that is a good thing.

As these discussion always strengthen MY personal beliefs and faith.....and I also always learn something new.

Two points/questionsfirst exactly WHAT is meant by accept Jesus? I have heard at least 20 different ways and all of them are right (supposedly) yet all the other ways are wrong

It's such an important question, I want to make sure it's answered thoroughly. This gentleman is one of the most passionate believers/speakers I know. He answers it just right: http://rhm.gospelcom.net/yours/

Let me know if that helps.

On another note, I was raised Lutheran, Mark was raised Catholic. We were married in a Methodist church. We belong to one now, but disagree with how the top ones handle things as far as church property, etc. The sermons are not touching us either. I have students who attend a Baptist church I would love to try, but Mark wants to stick it out at our little country church, so I'll stay with him and maybe take a week off now and then to visit another. There's a Crosswinds church I'd love to visit also. I always say I'm a Christian, never attaching a denomination. Mark and I wold love to start a very simple church in the historical Little Church down the road. Just like to keep things simple and go straight to the Bible for answers.

Discussions like this always help make my faith stronger.

 

[kaykay]

well shoot here goes nothing. I rarely talk about my spiritual beliefs because its so personal to me.

back to the posters question have i ever wavered? absolutely i have. Years ago i lost my dad, then my sister and took custody of her daughter. right after that i lost my mother and a best friend. all of them in 3 years. My sister and mother died of cancer and i was both of their caretakers. It was the worst 3 years of my life and I started to question everything including my faith. I decided there was no God no Jesus etc. I was alone and that was all their was to it. Boy was I ever alone! It wasnt until later when i began to get desperate and i got on my knees and begged for love and direction that I got my answer. And that is between me and Him and not for public discussion

Only after that did the pain heal and i could welcome love back into my life again and be the mother and wife i needed to be.

As for organized religion no i do not participate in that. I have yet to find a church that does what a church should do. I remember back when churches did so much good and always took care of their flock and the poor and the needy. Now it seems to be all about what you can do for the church not what the church can do for you. And money. How much money can you give to your church seems to be of prime importantce. When i had this debate with my daughters then fiancee i asked him to bring me his churches treasury statement. Luck would have it they had just handed it out. Him and I went thru it goether. Not one dime of what they took in went to help any family member of the church or anyone in the community where the church was built. Any money that went to help people went overseas. The majority of the budget was spent on the new church they were building. I asked him why with so many single mothers in our small town struggling to eat every week why they were sending money for missionarries over seas?? He couldnt answer (teen pregnacy and single mothers was a huge problem in that town) And honestly after really looking at his churches budget he had to agree that most of the money went ot the church itself or overseas. Such a shame when so many needed help 2 blocks from the church

I see Him everywhere I look and everywhere I go. My home and family is my church. And I try whenever I can to do the right thing and to instill this in my children but im human so far from perfect lol.

Kay

 

[Buckskin gal]

"I see Him everywhere I look and everywhere I go."

Well said Kay. I am by far closer to God, now, then I ever was when going to church. After all He was the one that made the sun and the moon. the meadows and the mountains, the flowers and the beauty of all nature. He didn't make churches. As for the bible. It has been rewritten so many times that we don't know what is left of it that is actually God's word. Why would God write more then one way of how things happened, such as creation? The bible is way too ambiguous and contradictory for me to believe all that is said was written by God. JMHO Mary

 

[Nancy G]

AMEN Lyn. I too believe in the God of the Bible, his son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. (The Trinity.) Our church does have an outreach program. They have helped many in our community. The final word in our church is in the truth of the Bible.

We all have a choice and I choose to accept Jesus as my savior, the son of God. Eternal Life is a free gift from God, received through His Son who died for our sins. God is love! How wonderful to part of His family. When I feel like I am drifiting from God, I talk to him more, read his word. Even with good friends, we need to keep in touch to further our relationship.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Charity begins at home.

We have charity shops called "Oxfam" set up years and years ago when Charity shops did not exist- they were the first.

The idea is you take all your unwanted stuff (not JUNK, just unwanted) and they wash it and iron it and fluff it up and put it in sale.

This all went swimmingly for a while- we (I was a kid at Art School) all piled into these shops and got all our "groovy" clothes from them, this was the Sixties and pretty much anything went!!

Fast forward a few years.

These shops are now run and managed- the Managers a paid, all other staff is volunteer.

I was in a few years back and an old man was protesting the price of a shirt- around $8.00 they were charging- the woman on the till said primly"It is for Charity, you know" he turned to her and he said"I fought in the war foe you, so you could stand there and be free to say that to me. I cannot AFFORD that shirt and, when I was a kid, Charity began at HOME" and he left the shop.

I have NEVER forgotten that.

Of course nowadays I have to stand there and be elbowed in the ribs by bloody Muslim woman wearing their getups- they are SO rude, whilst their spoiled brats run riot round the shop- heaven forfend you should say No to a BOY child!!!

But that is another story-- and before you preach Religious Tolerance to me, come live in my neighbourhood for a month!!!!

 

[nootka]

But that is another story-- and before you preach Religious Tolerance to me, come live in my neighbourhood for a month!!!!

If anyone is using religious tolerance to try and get by with terrible behavior and just plain being obnoxious, I feel badly for them.

That is just basic human decency, to not cause someone a bunch of discomfort or distress. Not sure what's going on, but I think I understand a bit of what you may be alluding to.

It amazes me that the ones who are trying to be the most "christ-like" end up coming off as very much the opposite due, for the most part, to a snobbery or some sort of idea they have that their idea is the only way, the best way.

Believe me that my faith and beliefs are hard-won and not lightly thought out, and they are open to change. This last statement I know that many religiously devout cannot claim. Their minds are, simply, unable to be open because they are bound and restricted by the beliefs that are told to them in one form or another. Living in this world with a closed mind is dangerous, if you ask me. How else can you defend the banning of beautiful works of art and poetry, literature, SCIENCE, for cripes' sake, merely because it goes "against the word of god or the teachings of the bible." It is wrong and backwards and that to me is the true reason I cannot condone anyone following anything blindly. There should be no fear in learning more about our lives and our origins other than the loss of the power of a following.

There was a time, as a small child, when I asked for help from "GOD" or "JESUS" or anyone and it never came. It never appeared nor was there a flicker of light or hope and I relied on my own strength. It simply doesn't exist and so one must look out for one's self.

I could go on a long time, but I did promise not to drag this out anymore b/c I believe bcody has had her question answered and here we are wandering all over the map on it.

Anyway, it is the large groups of people, the organizers and the "leaders" that ultimately destroy these things. I honestly believe the people have wonderful intentions for the most part...but take that desire and do something with it. Your $5 you might drop in the collection plate would mean a lot more to someone directly that you know needs it. It might end up being only $2 to the church's charity as they have to pay their bills, too...if you don't know someone in need, take it upon yourself to find someone. You won't have to look far.

Sorry if I've offended anyone. So far, all I've gotten, though, are supportive and posts in agreement, privately, so I know I'm not alone. I don't begrudge anyone their faith, their strength and joy. What I do dislike is to think that someone is hiding from seeing the full truth, the full beauty and miraculousness of life, and to accept responsibility in their own destiny, and worse yet, to think someone is being taken advantage of. (don't get me started on THAT).

L.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Or the teachings of the Q'ran, for that matter- the religious fanatics in Afghanistan blew up- DESTROYED two statues of Buddha- nealry a thousand years old- carved out of the rock face because "idols" or for that matter any depictions of real life (except of course the religious leaders- that apparently is OK) are forbidden.

This is the reason for the weird sort of perspective in some of the beautiful pictures from early Islam- it was not that they did not fully understand perspective- these were the people who had Science with a capital "s" when we were still taking baths once a year, if you were lucky- it was that the depiction of reality id forbidden by law...(unless you are a religious leader and then it is OK)

 

[nootka]

Interpretation is subjective and can be somewhat dangerous or damaging to both parties. When I feel myself doing so, I try to step back and examine it more carefully.

I don't intend bitter, more so jaded I would think, than anything else.

I think because I realize more and more people think as I fear, that anyone without a religious belief that they can lay a name to, is a less trustworthy person, an unknown quantity and yet the opposite has held true in my life and experiences, for the most part.

It's so hard to defend a feeling you have, that you are so very convinced of, and yet you know, no matter what, that most other people won't get it. I feel very lucky to have a multitude of people around me that feel that way. Or maybe it's where I live.

I can't get behind anything based on superstition and manipulation, loose interpretations, though I understand the feeling it must be coming from. I get that from my love of life, my love of my surroundings, my wants and desires, the people I love and admire and the things I do that make me feel good about myself. It is no great mystery, just the magic that is life, and that's one great miracle in itself. To have arrived at this place is a happy thing, a peaceful calm, I know those of you with great faith in your god must understand, it seems very similar.

Liz

 

[runamuk]

Just an observation: the posts made by those who speak of their Christian faith are gentle, peace filled in tone and voice. The voice/tone in others sound bitter, angry, defensive.

It's sad that some lump all Christians in such a negative view. I'm sorry for whatever happened to cause that.

I sure hope my words and/or actions never contribute to that negative view, here or anywhere.

Actually I find YOU to be gentle and teaching where as many are preaching their "HOLY ROLLER" diatribe...........I enjoy your opinion as you are firm in your belief but do not seem to be actively trying to convert me...........that alone speaks volumes.........to my knowledge you have never condemned US to HE_LL.......but have presented your opinion with explanation........wether I fully agree or not is not the issue......the issue is you handle the subject in amanner that .....even I believe Christ would be proud of............do as I do not as I say

:

 

[crponies]

Well, Karla, Jesus did tell us to be wise as serpants and harmless as doves. So, if the Christians on this thread have truly been gentle while presenting their views, they have done very well indeed.

As far as the original question, if I ever am feeling distanced from my faith, it generally means I need to spend some time reading God's Word and praying to my loving God. I find so much peace, even in the midst of heartache or the chaos of life, when I spend time listening and talking to my Lord and Savior. I'm so glad to have a personal relationship with Jesus and if I ever seem to be telling someone they need one it is because 1) I truly believe they do 2) I care what happens to them and 3) I wish they could experience the joy and peace that I know because I know Him. That said, I don't believe being pushy ever accomplishes anything when it comes to religion. It is the quiet working of the Holy Spirit that will help anyone come to place their faith in the truth found in the Bible. God gave people a right to choose when He created them, and we certainly can't take that right away. I respect everyone's right to choose and that is true tolerance (tolerance does not mean I have to see what you have chosen as being right).