Geld 'em!

[Jean_B]

Simply put, if the price of gelding is deterring people from breeding, please STOP BREEDING. Common sense says that when breeding you will either end up with a filly or colt. More likely than not, many of your colts (and fillies, too) will not be breeding material and should be gelded before being sold (or sold on a solid gelding contract). It goes without saying that not all fillies should go on to produce, either, but at least with colts we have the ability to permanently fix them before they contribute to the gene pool. If the market is such that you can only get about twice the price of gelding for an intact, gelding quality colt in your area, please STOP BREEDING if you are unwilling to make the investment to help protect your breed's future.

AMEN!! Will not get into any discussion of what makes a horse "stallion quality" because everyone has their own opinion on that....and it is simply that....an OPINION. There is no manual, there is no set of "rules", only opinions.

However, the cost of having a colt gelded should be built into EVERYONE'S budget no matter what the cost in a particular area. And if you get that breath-taking "Must Be Kept Intact" colt, more power to you, but at least EVERYONE should plan for the very distinct possibility that their colt might not fall into that category!! To not plan ahead financially is just poor farm and financial management.

 

[disneyhorse]

Excellent point, Jean B!

I have no qualms about gelding colts around here. It's about $200. I've only ever bred two foals... one was gelded the other sold as a foal before I gelded it. Haven't had the luxury of a filly. Who knows if I'll ever breed again in the future, possibly another one or two foals... but would most definitely geld again.

Andrea

 

[Jill]

Here and in person, I try to say what I think and it's because others I looked up to did this as well that I was able to grow as a horsewoman, and hope to learn and grow all the time. And, because I am me, and everyone can see my name and is a click away from being able to call me on the phone, I find it even more important to be honest and call it like I see it. I don't care if that makes me popular, or not. I do truly feel that the large number of poor quality minis being created every single year is the major problem facing our breed and so I'm outspoken.

 

[George]

While it is very noble to say you're breeding to better the breed, the most you can really do is breed for what's hot today. Who knows what the standard of perfection will be next year, the year after or twenty years from now. If you're breeding to gain a lead then you may very well be taking yourself in the wrong direction. Also, you can only change the conformation so much before it starts interupting the natural conformation and comfort of the horse. I wonder, is the breeding more for eye candy for us humans or the well being of the horse? I also wonder how many of the guru's of breeding are covering all areas when it comes to breeding. It sounds as if the main, and sometimes only goal is fantastic conformation. There is a lot more to breeding horses than conformation. If your main goal is conformation alone then you-yourself are part of the problem. And if you say you are breeding for all qualities then don't just say you are, prove that you are.

It is one thing to think and a completely different thing to know what you're talking about. Make sure if you're offering advice that it covers the full spectrum and not just the one area that you are striving for. I read too many post about conformation and too few about the complete package. Is your attempt to breed a horse with perfect conformation breeding the hardiness right out of the breed?

If your stallions are wild and unmanageable then maybe that is what is being bred into them or you're not giving the stallion the attention it needs. It is an animal that needs more attention than being groomed to show everyone how pretty he is and how awesome his babies will be. If there are too many mini's born and not enough homes then even the top breeders need to adjust their own breeding program. Just because you have ten mares doesn't mean you need to breed them all. If you are having a hard time selling your horses at reasonable prices then maybe you're not breeding the top quality horses you think you are.

Sometimes those who point fingers at others as being the problem are actually just as much a part of the problem. You can bet that if you're selling your horses for a few thousand dollars that those selling for more and with better show records are saying that you're part of the problem.

The best advice I can give is to buy as many stallions as you want, have them gelded and then resell them; that way you have helped eliminate some of the problem.

You can be an expert in anything but if you lack people skills then the only person who'll ever appreciate your knowledge will be you.

 

[MBennettp]

I also believe in gelding. I already have an appointment made to geld one of the 2 stallions on my farm.

I am a little different in the way that I think than most though, I believe that a horse not only should be able to place and win in a halter class (not necessarily be shown but have the conformation that they could) but also should have some athletic ability as well before it is used for breeding. I have seen some gorgeous halter horses that couldn't cut it if they had to do anything except halter.

Personally I like an all around horse that could not only be shown at halter but could be shown in other classes too. I want a horse that if I decide to drive him, he has the athletic ability and aptitude to do well with it or jumping or obstacle or whatever.

I would personally never breed a mare to a stallion just because he was a halter champion if the stallion was not also athletic enough to do other things.

Once again, I believe that a show record or bloodlines does NOT make the horse better than another. Some of us do not choose to show and that is our right. Some of us strongly believe in gelding but also love to keep a stallion even though we are not breeders. My stallion is pastured between a gelding and the mares and does wonderfully.

I am well known around here for gelding most everything that sets foot on the farm and my vet has more than once asked if I was sure I wanted a horse gelded before he would begin.

I love geldings, they are wonderful to work with and there is nothing better for a child or adult's first horse than a gelding.

Mary

 

[Jill]

George (and everyone) --

My feeling is that good conformation is the foundation. What I know is that there are a lot of mini stallions out there with very poor conformation. Good conformation, disposition, type, and action are all criteria.

Agree or not, that's not in my control, but the reality is there are many people using stallions who are very poor examples of the breed simply because that's what they have. A lot of people choose to breed what they have on hand at the time, vs. trying to get the quality in place and then breed.

Do I think I have already got my breeding stock for now and for the next 20 years? NO. Part of what interests me is knowing it's a changing game and I am always looking for the opportunity to improve my stock.

The entire reason I did not start breeding minis years ago was because while I had some winning horses, I didn't think I had as good as I could get. I gelded some champion stallions which is a very emotional choice and one I contemplated for years. What I felt was that those horses were not as good as the ones I could have instead. So, changes were made.

There are a huge number of miniature people breeding stallions that should be geldings. Some of them have to know it, and others truly just see a neat color or a cute face, or "whatever". I'm trying to do what's right and trying to set an example by gelding some outstanding colts and stallions as well. I never knew of another breed where someone buys their first mini and a year later -- guess what? That person is now a horse breeder.

I'm honestly not sure if your comments are targetted at me or at others. My people skills have served me pretty well in horses and in business, though. My entire career is about taking good care of my clients. Additionally, I'm not usually one to get mad or hold a grudge because someone has spent a lot of time and come up with an opinion that is different than my own.

If I am particularly outspoken about geldings and stallions, it's only because I have a strong opinion and feel the pet quality x pet quality breeding is really dragging down the American Miniature Horse. So, really regardless of who does and does not appreciate my opinion, I am not sorry to have expressed it.

Jill

 

[MBennettp]

What I stated was not directed at anyone. It is simply stating my feelings about what I personally like.

I am not a breeder, there have been 2 foals born on our farm in the last 30 years and both of them were from mares that were already bred when they arrived. I don't choose to breed because my herd is right where I want my numbers to be right now and if I did breed any of my mares, I would have another horse for life. I am not saying I never will breed one or more of my mares but it is a huge decision for me to make because once a horse sets foot on our farm, it has a home for life. If they are not what I personally like, I have several relatives that are always at my barn and always working with the horses. The horses are a family project and my nieces and nephews are wonderful with the horses.

I agree there are a lot of stallions out there that should be gelded and never bred. There are also a lot of mares that should never be bred but the cost of spaying is prohibitive.

Mary

 

[disneyhorse]

Sorry, George...

Those minis being bred today MAY be a "hot fad" BUT (and this is assuming you are referring to the refined Shetland look) they do not just "blow over with a whisper" and are NOT "bred just for conformation."

Have you been to Nationals in the past five years, George? Have you SEEN these Shetland minis in the driving ring? In my opinion the driving class quality of motion has improved in LEAPS AND BOUNDS... the minis are not just bred for size any more, they DO have refined conformation (are now free of the short thick leg and giant head for the most part) and they can MOVE.

THe conformation being bred for, also is paired with more elegant movement. I remember when I first got into minis, it was more rare to find a mini that could pick up it's hocks and was anything more than a "dink dink" mover where now even the average horse can actually extend it's trot and hold it's head up naturally.

Breeders ARE breeding to improve the breed for the most part, whether or not it's the current "fad." As far as I have seen, the miniature breed is moving in the right direction, from concern about size to concern about conformation to concern about type and movement. That looks like a good thing to me!

Andrea

 

[Shari]

I do not follow fashion...or what is "in"... never have in the 35 years I have played with, worked, trained and bred horses.

Am like George... I think like all other breeds..there are mini's that are being bred for whats hot.

But then again.. I tend to go my own way as I have said.

While the super high stepping, super refined leg is very flashy and pretty,, is not what I am interested in.

Those kind and yes..( I have been around them..even driven a couple)... are not what I look for in a horse..be it mini or other wise.

I like a Old type morgan or traditonal Canadian body type mini horse. Nice solid body and legs.A balanced horse. I drive and I need a horse with some nice solid bone. With where I drive... on the trails on my place. Those flashy super high stepping ..tiny ultra refined mini's couldn't handle it.

I see the same thing happening to the Icleandic's right now in Iceland and here. They are being super refined..so narrow body.. narrow/refined legs...super high action now over the level. See these horses in Vids and in person..they have so much action in their legs..that even the best riders in Iceland seem to be having problems keeping their backsides in the saddle even at a tolt. That is not right to change a horse so much. What use is flash and bling..in a horse that has been known for its super soft easy to ride gait.

But then I have this kind of thing happen to so many other breeds in the USA. :no:

I will not go on and bore folks..but if most really think about it. Did breeders really improve on all those other breeds? Arabs, Morgans, Haflingers......on and on.

But to each their own.

So back to the gelding...yes,, more people need to geld. But how to get the word out? This board is great but I have met many mini people that are not on it. I always give this web address out. The R & A magazines are pretty spendy to most and not suited to folks not following the crowd. Even me. Rather use the money on my animals.

If mini info can be written up in other main stream magazines...with a small article about how important it is to geld...would reach more people..and maybe...it would get some thinking about that colt they have.

 

[Jill]

Well, I do think those who are breeding for "what's hot" are also breeding for correctness and have got it all over those breeding for what they could scrunge up. For every one person breeding for what some may see as a trend, there are 10 breeding pet quality x pet quality.

 

[miniwhinny]

I have a stallion "Ozymandias".

HOLY SMOKES!!!! I remember that beautiful little guy....although he probably isn't so little anymore. How's he doing? Did he end up keeping his unique coloring?

Yep he did. It's harder to see in his wooly winter coat...which to my sadness is already growing long wah, wah LOL. Next spring I'll get some nice shots of him to share. Thanks for the nice comment

:

 

[TriggynBluenDaisy Too]

I saw my first mini over 35 years ago and they were tragic little things and nothing more than a novelty. Big heads and stumpy legs would have been was a vast improvement in itself back then. There have been HUGE strides in improving the breed since that time and that didn't come about as a result of the masses continuing to breed the same old lines and styles.

Unfortunatley minis are animals just about anyone can manage these days, like dogs, and the same tired breed em' if you got em' mentality persists. Peer pressure can be one of the most effective ways of moving towards real change so while you may not like the message don't shoot the messenger. Only until someone questions what you are doing, do you think to question yourself--especially if that is coming from those who are actutally deeply involved with the industry and will continue to be there long after those who have contributed their share of poor quality horses to the gene pool have long since lost interest and moved on.

There is nothing wrong with a nice family, less-than-conformationally-perfect pet who will give their owners years of pleasure --although there are TOO FEW of those kind of homes so a horse needs to have more than just "cute" going for it. Even the most astute breeders are going to end up with some clinkers so it's doubtful the pet market will ever collapse. The problem lies with those who think those pets should reproduce and when they don't get a decent price for them, if they can unload them at all, stubbornly continue to breed more.

Everyone loves their mins, I know I do, but they had a date with the scapel in their futures no matter what. They were sold under the premise of being "correct" and good enough to be future herd sires but that is not why I bought them. Thank God for them and the rest of minidom I didn't decide they had any chance at all to better the breed.

 

[user 488]

Please everyone......we all know that topics like this get very heated but PLEASE do not attack anyone personally. There is a big difference between stating one's opinion (however you might like it or not) and calling out any one person. State your opinion but please do not single out anyone in particular.

Thanks, Carol

 

[Katiean]

It really cracks me up that the very people that are screaming "STOP BREEDING" are the ones that have foals due next year. I did not breed for next year. I am hoping the economy takes an upturn so I can breed. I am not going to breed a mare to only get grade prices out of it. If I choose to sell a foal I want it to go for at least what I paid for mine. Right now nicely bred horses in my area are going for less than $1,000 (well less). There are not even a lot of minis in my area for sale. People here don't want to spend $18 for a bale of hay to feed a pet. They are feeding their families instead. The problem here is Nevada has the highest foreclosure rate in the nation or maybe we are second. Anyway that is why I don't breed. As for gelding I am not paying $350 to geld a colt and then get $350 for him because I do not have a web site and the prices just aren't there in Nevada. If "YOU" want to help the problem of so many colts then "STOP BREEDING" don't tell everyone to geld!

 

[Marty]

Just some thoughts:

I think it would help a lot of people including me if there were more local miniature rated shows.

One reason I do not show is that rated miniature shows in my state are only 2 a year and way far out of my area; and they are mighty costly to attend.

In big horses back home, I could find a show practically every week within an hour or less of me and it was always affordable. Just a one day show where you could show out of your trailer and it was easy. You were always there to see who's winning and why. You could gain a ton of knowledge from just attending and keeping your eyes and ears open. By doing this, you'd see the changes are and acceptable standards and you could go home and work on that and you knew just what had to be done to stay at the top of your game.

I like to go to a show and keep a low profile, find a corner and sit and watch quietly and learn. I'd come home and say "I definitely have to do something about this or that" and tweak my modest little program accordingly. But, by the time I get there, it would be time to head back home. LB helps pick up that slack a lot for us stay at homers to see via cyberspace what is going on. The websites are also a wonderful guide to study up and learn. But if there were more local mini shows that would be rated, with real miniature judges, that would be a great place to see how many horses would measure up against others; a wonderful starting point for many to realize what is good and what is not so good in their overall program. But I for one am not traveling all over the place in this state and staying away from home all weekend and have to drop a mortgage payment and having it cost me the whole farm either. There were a few attempts to form clubs and hold shows around here in the past that always fell through. Sigh. Back in my box now. Have a great day everyone.

 

[minimomNC]

Marty, I agree completely with what you are saying about more local shows. AMHA and AMHR will approve one day shows. They will approve performance only shows. Classes do not have to be split for every height. You can have yearling stallions, 2 year old stallions, yearling mares etc... they don't have to be split. You can do a show with as few classes as possible. Awards do not have to be silver trophies. Get vendors involved like ECMHC and MAMHC (I think thats the right one) have done. Make your own "ribbons" by handmaking coupons the vendor will accept. Get donated prizes for grands and reserves, supremes, whatever. But a one day doesn't have to cost a fortune. Hire new judges, they need the experience too. Do only one judge. Sure you only get one set of points but with more people showing the points will still add up if the costs are down. Get facilities donated for a day for advertising, have someone come and do food just for them to make some money. Whatever it takes to do, do it. It can be done. As long as you aren't doing it to make a profit, to just break even, then the entry fees won't have to be as high either. It will work.

If your area isn't big on halter, do performance only. I think you can even do amateur/youth only. It only takes one person to get it started.

I know this has nothing to do with a gelding thread, but if people have more places to show those geldings people will bring them. Every point an AMHA Gelding earns can go toward money prizes in the Ultimate Gelding Award Program. There is money in geldings, you just have to do something to make it happen, not just sit around and talk about it.

 

[nootka]

I don't understand why anyone says there are so many patting themselves on the back.

There are very FEW with that smug type of attitude, and the ones that are, are really not looking closely at their herd themselves.

I would NEVER rest on my laurels nor pat myself on the back, because I can always do better!

The BEST COLT I have produced to date (My opinion) is running around my pastures as a gelding, and even though I had much protest to keep him intact, he still could be better. He is not perfect, and there are stallions as nice as or better than him out there. There are mares and geldings that I will say the same of.

I am and have been looking for one new mare to add to my herd, but I am trying to be so careful that I have not really found what I need/want to truly do "better" and be able to afford her. So I wait...

NO, my horses are not perfect, and most of the breedings I undertake do not come close to as nice as I hope for, but some of them approach it, and most times, the foals are BETTER than the parent(s).

I am not breeding for what's hot, first and foremost.

I don't care what is winning, if the choices I'm making are what I feel is risky (say both parents had cow hocks, or turned out toes in the front, though that type was winning in the ring, or their color was catchy), I won't do it.

I also choose to hold off breeding until I'm sure I know I can sell or am going to keep the foals of this year. I have ONE foal MAYBE due for next year. I have the room to hang onto them indefinitely.

I am planning on breeding one mare next year at this point. If I do not sell any horses in the next 6 months to one year, I will not be breeding anyone until I do. Just part of the big picture.

If I owned a really nice stallion, I would make it part of the stud fee/agreement to geld unless we both agreed and/or refund some of the stud fee if they did, etc. etc. as a deposit.

All of that aside, I am no snob, I am not patting myself on the back, pointing fingers or trying to hold myself up as an example except for the fact that I think my policy on gelding is something others might consider in any form for their own "program" if they can at all manage it (that is to consider everything male a gelding unless there is a very exceptional reason not to, and no, bright color is NOT it).

Too many people start right out with a stallion, and often he's purchased before he's even 6 months old. To me, that's convoluted thinking, and I hope that any new owners or even ones that have had them a while would reconsider and take their time to do their research. Yes, it happens that many of us buy a "prospect" at that age, but sometimes, something will end up letting him out of that "job", and we are out the investment. So much can happen (just ask me and I'll tell you, it's happened to me), and we are all learning. I have SO MUCH to learn in every aspect of this industry: showing, breeding, training, etc.

I am in no way closed-minded nor think that I have anything perfect.

I have, however, come a LONG WAY in my understanding of why certain horses are winners, why they look nicer to educated eyes, and why they stay sound, etc. etc. and so I understand more about choosing good breedings.

I have at some time or other, put up every single one of my horses on this board for critique (I think Gramma Pony's the only one I left out, but even she's up for critique if one wanted to) as I am always looking to see what others see and think, to get outside my own thought process. If someone has a concern, I'd love to hear about it.

No, I do not have any National or World titles, but I will say I have a few local ones, and do pretty "ok" at the shows. The horses I breed are sound little ones, and the ones that are unsuitable for breeding, I do my part to remove them from that equation.

(the above is not a patting self on back thing, it is trying to illustrate the efforts that most breeders should go to when they first endeavor to breed, but that's just my opinion. Certainly I am no authority, just trying to help others see the big picture. It isn't about selling every little weaned fluffball just off their mother, it can be a years-long commitment to sell a foal one has produced, ask anyone that's been in it a while)

Liz M.

 

[minimomNC]

I have to say, Nootka has one of the best geldings i have ever seen, I told her that before. Pyro is one horse I would have on our show string in a second. Thats what breeding is about. Having babies that people other than yourself, would love to own.

Now as for me personally, I have two foals due next year. My first foals in 4 years. One had been planned for two years. The mare is a Res. World Champion and the stallion is a Res World Grand Champion. I know that doesn't guarantee a show baby but my odds are better with proven horses. And the stallion has already sired a World Champion and Reserve World Champion in just three crops.

I have gelded more horses in the last 4 years than I have raised. And I can tell you honestly, there isn't a whole lot of stallions that I couldn't take a knife to. Wouldn't bother me abit. There is always another one up and coming to take its place. What's hot this year might not be next year so it really doesn't matter what is gelded to me.

There are alot of pictures posted of stallions these days that I wouldn't even have as a gelding. Someone said in one post why is it a good stallion would make a great gelding. Well thats not the case anymore. It better be one heck of a stallion if you want to compete with the geldings now.

So the problem with to many stallions out there breeding isn't going to stop just because a thread on LB said they should. A person needs to look at their program and see just many people are beating their doors down for their babies. If the answer is none, maybe that should be your first clue.

 

[mininik]

Wow, 10 pages. Have any colts been gelded over this yet?

:

 

[horseheart]

Thanks for the link. I was coming here to ask a gelding question-- know I now. Wish I would have seen it sooner.

Robin