Geld 'em!

[Buckskin gal]

I am trying to make sense out of some of the things that are being said. It seems some are saying it is okay to breed good horses as long as the colts are gelded. Okay, that is what should be done by those who feel that way. We are also being told that if you can't afford to geld a colt then don't breed...I am all for that also. What troubles me is saying it is okay to breed if the horses are good but it is also okay to sell the mares and let them go on breeding even though they are producing more than what the market can handle

realy well. Why the double standard of making sure you can afford to geld a colt before breeding but not have mares spayed because it costs too much? I know of people who have had their mares spayed [hope that is proper terminalogy] and it hasn't cost anymore than what some are saying it costs to geld. It does take two to tango and there wouldn't be the unwantwed stallions if mares weren't bred. Many people have mediocre mares that they breed but why shouldn't the mare be as good, if not better than the stallion? Just some things to think about because there are ways of seeing that there aren't so many stallions and not breeding those mares is one of them!

Another thing someone may question is how are you going to know if that stallion is going to produce better than themselves if you don't breed them? The article does say to geld early which I think is wonderful but doesn't go along with the train of thought that a stallion needs to be proven for what it produces. I really am trying to stay nuetral here because I want to see all sides of the matter yet have people see all points of view to breeding and non breeding. Doesn't much of this come down to "why are we breeding when there is so many already?" Fortunately, for some breeders, I seem to be one that buys more than I produce. Mary

:aktion033:

Awesome article!

I find it interesting indeed that the farms that I admire (personally) and tend to have the highest quality horses are the ones that are JUST FINE with gelding colts, even ones that would probably be quite nice as stallions (i.e., good, correct parentage and nice horses to begin with, even themselves often national champs).

It seems to be the ones that sell the horses for the really low prices or medium low prices that really have the problem with it, also the ones that tend to "romanticize" and anthropomorphize more than is necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving the horses their emotions, their feelings, etc., but when they are treated like sentimental objects and that is used as an excuse for breeding more poorly conformed/badly proportioned animals, it's wrong.

The world does not need more mediocre. ALL of us should be striving for higher quality.

I wish it were easier to spay mares, and I do hope that eventuality is near.

I find another aspect interesting, that people don't realize that times change and we are "moving on" so they wish to take that stallion who was so "cool" 20 years ago, and either get him reproducing again or reproduce him. He may have been National champion then, but he couldn't cut the mustard, now...and his babies are likely not to be what they were (with some rare exceptions).

We DO tend to experiment a little bit when we breed even the best to the best. What frustrates me is to see the "ok" bred to the "ok" and then we have generations of "so so" to look forward to. At least take the "ok" and find an oustanding/superior stallion....?

Now that I see the "bigger" thing on the article, though, makes me a little nervous about gelding some of my colts so young, I guess they may go over, but I'd rather do that than breed fugly horses and/or have them breeding when they shouldn't be.

Thanks, mininik, for this....guessing that I could show it around, myself, but the ones that really need to get the msg won't.

BTW, my vet charges $95 for a gelding procedure that is with the farm call. He raised it from $65 when I had it done two years ago.

My policy is that EVERY colt here will be gelded as soon as he's ready (descended) and before he leaves here to his new home UNLESS he is that nice, and he better be darned nice. It's been that way for years, now. It ONLY MAKES SENSE if you truly have an outstanding stallion, to control his male offspring that way, and want to protect your stallion's worth as well as his future generations. YOu have no control over what mare is bred by your stallion's sons and so on and so on....

Liz M.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Marty you have got it in one.

We are preaching to the choir.

 

[Jill]

Unfortunately, though, not enough of us are singing the same tune :bgrin A lot of us are on the same page, but there are also a lot of us that have some lot to learn. And I do personally know it's not easy to decide to turn your stallion into a gelding. There are plenty of people who use this forum with stallions that would be better off as geldings. I think it's good to talk about it, and good to set an example in how you / we handle our own horses. You never know who may be reading but not posting on a certain thread.

 

[Kendra]

Great article Nicole!

Our local club has been running gelding incentives since the beginning, almost 20 years ago. I think that probably has a lot to do with the fact that our gelding classes in this area are always huge, and generally of very high quality as well.

Since we've got the senior gelding numbers under control, our club has been focusing our our junior gelding incentive, which gives out $100 to members for each junior gelding, and $200 if that junior gelding is shown.

We show almost exclusively geldings, and I've been told more than once that we "must" regret gelding one or the other .... but we never have! And we've gelded a LOT of horses over the years!

 

[user 488]

Marty you have got it in one.

We are preaching to the choir.

You got that right! A deaf one at that!

: :new_rofl:

I think it would be wonderful if just ONE Miniature was gelded thanks to someone reading this article.

We can only hope! Lots more gelding threads to go.

 

[mininik]

It is a mostly deaf choir, Marty, including some who have responded to this thread.

:

Mary, as I pointed out earlier, it is obviously NOT okay to breed lesser quality mares, but one stallion's impact on the breed has the potential to be far greater than that of most mares. Also, unlike many stallions, most intact mares aren't breaking down fences to be bred or acting dangerously towards eachother or their caretakers. Most mares can live peacefully in herds. Finally there is the concern that while spaying may not be much more expensive than gelding in some parts of the country, it is more invasive.

By all means, spay your lesser quality mares if you can or sell them on non-breeding contracts, but there is NO excuse to leave a stallion intact if he doesn't possess some outstanding reasons why he should be allowed to reproduce.

 

[Warpony]

Now that I see the "bigger" thing on the article, though, makes me a little nervous about gelding some of my colts so young, I guess they may go over, but I'd rather do that than breed fugly horses and/or have them breeding when they shouldn't be.

That is why I held off a little while on my colt but he will be gelded before next month. His mom is mid-range class B and I didn;t want to give him any more reason to grow UP instead of out. But I can't wait to have it done and over so he can have unrestricted access to his best friend. He is going to be so much happier once his hormones don;t require me to keep him confined every time the girl comes into heat.

Why the double standard of making sure you can afford to geld a colt before breeding but not have mares spayed because it costs too much?

I think spaying will get more affordable and less invasive as technology improves. I don't have a vet in my area that will do one, period. Like mininik, I think it is less of a priority because a mare can only reproduce once a year where as a stallion can reproduce many many times a year, people also think it is a dangerous and invasive surgery that puts their mare at risk (and it can be), but also because you are a lot less likely to have the behaviour issue with a mare than you are with a stallion. It's a pretty rare thing for a mare to bust out of her paddock and accidentally get in foal by every stud in town (heh). It just seems to me it is a lot easier to manage a mare compared to a stud. Because of those reasons I don't think most people are too concerned about it.

I read somewhere that they can do laproscopic (sp?) spays on mares... something like that, it may have been a different term, but anyway it allows them to use a tiny incision and it is less risky for the mare and a lot cheaper with a lot less recovery time. I hope they pursue this type of thing because I think it would be fantastic if rescues and breeders could spay mares as easily as the geld colts.

 

[Katiean]

I want to know why you all think just because someone is a "small breeder" and not a huge farm that treats the horses like dollar bills is any less capable of producing quality. My horses are very happy and healthy. I do not breed 1 1/2 yr olds but some "BIG" farms do. Does that make them better?

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I still dont see the harm in having a stallion or even several if you dont sell minis and if you keep whatever you breed. We have never sold a stallion and probalbly never will . I will bite the bullet and pay the $350 that it costs to geld BEFORE I would sell a stallion that is unfit for breeding, I have only ever sold ONE male horse and that was a gelding. My stallions aren't neurotic they live together and get along fine as anyone who has been to my barn can tell you. They have their own stalls side by side and they go out in side by side paddocks. I have one stallion who is 8 and has not bred a mare since we rescued him but he is not unhappy. He lives with a mare who can not get pregnant and has a very good life. I realize not everyone has mares who cant conceive to give their stallions companionship but it works for us. I truly do agree with gelding but think that the price here is prohibitive and prevents many from doing it. I have PM'd Kathy to find out where she has found gelding for $200 our vet starts at that and goes up from there yearlings are more.

 

[Songcatcher]

Gelding costs are rediculous in some areas. When a vet makes more in 30 minutes than the breeder makes on a years investment, something is terribly wrong. :no:

What I would like to see is for some clubs to get together and hire a vet to come to a central location and set up a clinic for a day where owners could bring their colts to be gelded and get a reduced price. With organization and cooperation, a vet could easily do a large number quickly and the owners could save some money. Some local vets may not be willing to do a reduced rate, but if enough people were willing to participate, you could get someone from a greater distance away who would be willing to provide a group discount.

 

[miniwhinny]

I think it would be fantastic if rescues and breeders could spay mares as easily as the geld colts.

Everyone talks about gelding because simply put the "plumbing is on the outside" and it's easier but there are some mares out there being bred to lovely stallions coming up with mediocre foals. People say a mare can only produce one and a stallion can produce many....well true but only to a degree...he has to be exposed to a million first ! One mare , one stallion is all it takes for one baby. People need to stop thinking of every mare out there as an egg factory....some should just NOT be bred!

:

 

[mininik]

I want to know why you all think just because someone is a "small breeder" and not a huge farm that treats the horses like dollar bills is any less capable of producing quality. My horses are very happy and healthy. I do not breed 1 1/2 yr olds but some "BIG" farms do. Does that make them better?

I don't even know where you came up with that. This is not an "us" versus "them" discussion.

:

 

[Buckskin gal]

Heh, don't get me wrong, if you have seen my posts in the past I am all for gelding but I am also against mares that aren't any better than the stallion that needs to be gelded used to bring more babies into the world. It isn't about who can produce more, the stallion or the mare, this is about over all too much breeding. Yes, to fix a mare may be invasive but giving birth is also something that can take far more lives of mares than having a spay done on them, especially when it comes to the minis. I think that people are listening and evaluating what is said about gelding, and all other things to do about the over population of horses. There are those who don't geld their colts who are adding to this discussion and there are those that think their colts are too good to be gelded or that it costs them too much to do it so they ask the buyer to do it. Are these deaf ears or are they really doing such a terrific job with what they are producing that they feel this is all for the other guy? Just a hypothetical question due to the nature of wht is being said. Just because your stallions might be tearing down fences doesn't mean that all people have mean/untrained stallions. I love the stallions and just because they are stallions does not mean they will breed every mare that comes on the place nor does it mean they won't be trained for driving and bring enjoyment for us. I say geld and spay every mare and colt that you have if there is a problem but please don't lump all stallions together as to how they behave. Many peoiple think our stallions are as well behaved as some geldings. Thanks for your consideration, Mary

It is a mostly deaf choir, Marty, including some who have responded to this thread.

:

Mary, as I pointed out earlier, it is obviously NOT okay to breed lesser quality mares, but one stallion's impact on the breed has the potential to be far greater than that of most mares. Also, unlike many stallions, most intact mares aren't breaking down fences to be bred or acting dangerously towards eachother or their caretakers. Most mares can live peacefully in herds. Finally there is the concern that while spaying may not be much more expensive than gelding in some parts of the country, it is more invasive.

By all means, spay your lesser quality mares if you can or sell them on non-breeding contracts, but there is NO excuse to leave a stallion intact if he doesn't possess some outstanding reasons why he should be allowed to reproduce.

 

[nootka]

Yup, us means all of us.

Me, included.

I do know that the majority of the colts I have sold are GELDINGS, through my influence or because the owners finally realized they were better off that way (the first colt "I" produced (mare was bred when I bought her) was NOT stallion quality by any stretch. I have a suspicion that his dam was one of the biggest dwarfs I've ever seen (she was 38")).

Anyway, I don't understand the mindset of anyone that says "Oh, I never intend to breed him, but never gonna geld. Nope."

Why?

I understand that some people (who are likely very good trainers/handlers, disneyhorse comes to mind off the top of my head) have their reasons, but truthfully, very few people have the need to keep an intact stallion that is not actively breeding.

I would say that at least 90% of the stallions I see posted (there's a thread on the photo gallery right now) are really not better than say 20 years ago what was being used....for whatever reasons, and the only reason I think it's a problem is that some of the breeders have been "in" this industry for well over 10 years, others for more, others less. The point is that we're not improving anything by romanticizing and anthropomorphizing the experience of breeding/creating foals.

It's the same with people. Most immature humans rarely look past the babe in arms when they contemplate a pregnancy. They don't look down the road more than having and holding that little baby.

When we mature, we start to realize that it's a lifetime commitment.

Yes, we're preaching to the choir, but some of us are missing the point anyway. Yes, mares are 50% of the equation, but most have no more than one foal per year if that. When I asked about spaying, I was basically warned off of it by two vets in the area due to cost and risk. I ended up selling the mare to a pet only home. All that I can do, but if spaying comes down to a few hundred bucks, or even $500, I'm THERE. I am that committed to improving this breed. I don't mean by "type" which my type may not be your type, I mean by correctness and soundness.

Again, this is a great article. Our club, the NWMHC, has long had a gelding incentive, and I donated some things to the AMHA Gelding Incentive fund at the World show. I like supporting these programs.

Liz M.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Up until a year ago, I was strictly big horses, and the gelding issue with the minis is something that you don't see often in the big horses. I have NEVER seen so many stallions for sale. Generally with the big horses, mare owners do not own their own studs, unless it is a really big name farm. Now, you do have those random "backyard breeders", but not like you do with the minis. In my area it is very hard to find a boarding stable that will even accept a stallion. If you search any sale board for a Quarter Horse over 2 years old I can almost gaurantee that you might find 1 stallion for every 20 geldings. Gelding is just an assumed practice in the big horse world. We do not find it cute when a 1200lb stud acts out of hand. I dont think a 200 lb animal acting out of hand due to his hormones is "cute" either.

The halter breeders in the Big horse world geld most of their colts early, because they want them to grow taller. Obviously in the small horses, we want to keep them as short as their genetics allow, but thats no excuse not to geld. Sure, I knew Midas was going to be a B horse, and I realized that gelding him early would make him taller. Guess what? I gelded him when he was almost a yearling. By then I didnt have as much as a risk of him growing due to the gelding. There was never a question in my mind, I knew from the day I started looking at colts that no matter what I got it would be gelded. I wanted to get into showing something new, and I didnt need the added stress and complications of a studs hormones to start out.

Sure, I loooovvveee the look of a nice stallion. I love that certain hook neck that only studs seem to have, but I dont think ANYONE should be breeding a horse that couldnt hold its own in a show ring. Now, I realize that not everyone can afford to show their horse to a champion title, but your horse should atleast have the conformation that if you did show it, it would place. It seems like atleast 1 of every 5 members on here have a stallion. Why on earth anyone would want a stud for a pet gets me.

A nice stallion makes a better gelding. I always see people saying that "He's calm for a stud"

Well, I dont see any reason that there should be an acception. If hes so calm as a stud, think of how calm he would be as a stallion. I always bite my tongue when I see people posting pictures of their breeding stock, both studs and mares and have to bite my tongue, because I really want to tell them that their horse is probably a great pet, but if someone only wanted a great pet they should get it from a rescue.

Now, I also have a Quarter Horse mare. She can't be bred due to a previous owners neglegance. They bred her, and when she had the foal she tore her cervix. The owner never did anything about it, she developed a SEVERE infection, and she can never be bred again. People dont realize the dangers when they breed their horses, and it irks me.

Also, if I didnt want to pay to geld a colt that I bought, I wouldnt buy a colt. Thats just one of the assumed responsibilities that go with owning a colt for me.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Nootka, I am really impressed by how you are able to evaluate the conformation of the horses from pictures on the thread of stallions. Could you tell me how you do it for I certainly would not give an evalution of those stallions from those pictures. I might add, I think some of those minis from 20 years ago are nicely conformed minis that have had a tremendous impact on where the breed is today. Type changes but good conformation, to me, lasts. Even though conformation should not be subjective due to our standard, it still seems to be. Mary

Yup, us means all of us.

Me, included.

I do know that the majority of the colts I have sold are GELDINGS, through my influence or because the owners finally realized they were better off that way (the first colt "I" produced (mare was bred when I bought her) was NOT stallion quality by any stretch. I have a suspicion that his dam was one of the biggest dwarfs I've ever seen (she was 38")).

Anyway, I don't understand the mindset of anyone that says "Oh, I never intend to breed him, but never gonna geld. Nope."

Why?

I understand that some people (who are likely very good trainers/handlers, disneyhorse comes to mind off the top of my head) have their reasons, but truthfully, very few people have the need to keep an intact stallion that is not actively breeding.

I would say that at least 90% of the stallions I see posted (there's a thread on the photo gallery right now) are really not better than say 20 years ago what was being used....for whatever reasons, and the only reason I think it's a problem is that some of the breeders have been "in" this industry for well over 10 years, others for more, others less. The point is that we're not improving anything by romanticizing and anthropomorphizing the experience of breeding/creating foals.

It's the same with people. Most immature humans rarely look past the babe in arms when they contemplate a pregnancy. They don't look down the road more than having and holding that little baby.

When we mature, we start to realize that it's a lifetime commitment.

Yes, we're preaching to the choir, but some of us are missing the point anyway. Yes, mares are 50% of the equation, but most have no more than one foal per year if that. When I asked about spaying, I was basically warned off of it by two vets in the area due to cost and risk. I ended up selling the mare to a pet only home. All that I can do, but if spaying comes down to a few hundred bucks, or even $500, I'm THERE. I am that committed to improving this breed. I don't mean by "type" which my type may not be your type, I mean by correctness and soundness.

Again, this is a great article. Our club, the NWMHC, has long had a gelding incentive, and I donated some things to the AMHA Gelding Incentive fund at the World show. I like supporting these programs.

Liz M.

 

[Minimor]

It costs $350 in Nevada too. It discurraged me too. That is $350 for a simple geld and more if there is a problem. I could trailer to California but that just defeats the trip. As it would cost about $75 just for the trip plus time. I don't think that will work.

How much would it cost per gelding if you hauled to California? If the gelding procedure itself is a lot cheaper in the next state, I'd say it's worth it to load up several & get them all done in one trip (assuming you have several colts to geld?)--That's what we do now, load up 2 or 3 at a time & haul them to another area where there is a vet that is excellent at gelding Minis plus charges much less than the local vets. Last year I had 2 done by a local vet & it cost me $343. If I'd known & taken them to this other vet I could have had 4 done for that amount, hauling included. As it was I hauled 2 over this past spring & had them done--cost me less than $200 total, wolf teeth extraction included. After this ours go 2 or 3 or 4 at a time to this more distant vet--I pay $40 is gas to get there & back, but I save $200 on the vet cost for 4 horses.

 

[George]

As I was reading this thread I kept jumping back to the photo thread of the stallions and Liz and I are seeing two different things. What I see in that thread are what I consider exceptional horses. Many of them actually look like horses. Too many of the photo's I am seeing of so called "top" stallions remind me more of miniature poodles than horses. They almost look like a whisper could knock them over and they look more like a female than a male. I am sorry but if those miniature horses on the stallion photo thread are no better than the stallions of 20 years ago then I wish I'd discovered miniature horses 20 years ago those must have been some memorable horses in those days.

Also as has been mentioned, many sites showcase their beautiful stallions on the front page and then wehn you look at the mare page you soon realize why they're not on the front page.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Now that Ive thought about this for a few more minutes, I have come up with another thing that irks me.

Many mini breeders have only 1 or 2 stallions, and seem to have quite a bit more broodmares than stallions. Do you HONESTLY think that your stallion is the BEST POSSIBLE MATCH for EVERY mare that you own? I see a lot of people who are breeding their Nice stud to a nice mare, but the stalion dosent complement the mare. If more people bred their horses to outsode horses they would have a better chance of finding their mare the best possible match, not a "close enough" match. With the big horses most big breeders put a lot of thought into what stud they use for their mares. If their mare has a weakness, they try to find a stud who is strong in that area. If they have a horse who is conformationally very nice, with the exception of a not so nice head, they try to get a stud who has nice conformation, and a GREAT head. 2 ugly heads do not = 1 pretty head, etc.

 

[disneyhorse]

I understand that some people (who are likely very good trainers/handlers, disneyhorse comes to mind off the top of my head) have their reasons, but truthfully, very few people have the need to keep an intact stallion that is not actively breeding.

I happen to love stallions. I also love geldings... but for MY limited space and set up I try to keep horses that have decent "resale" value... I know that sounds terrible but most of the horses I've shown/trained/enjoyed are more broke than when I bought them and if a stallion, now have performance and a show record on them.

The sad part is, a GOOD gelding just can't justify spending a couple year's worth of $$$ in show fees and training (for me as an amateur owner, I spend approx $2,000 extra per year to show a horse. So if I buy a gelding for $2,000, show it for two years, I've now invested $6,000 in him and that is above costs for vet, board, farrier, ect. which I won't recoup selling a gelding but might if it's a well-selected stallion... and I AM VERY PICKY about my prospects that I select). They cannot, like a GOOD stallion, increase in value so much. I like getting a stallion with lots of potential, enjoying him by showing and training him, and then reselling him to someone who needs a good stallion but who maybe wants to continue showing or has some mares waiting for him. I do not have mares and generally after a few years of showing, feel "bad" for him and feel the need to let him reach his full potential (breeding). I agree with you though... it is NOT fair to a stallion to keep him intact "just because."

I have gelded a few colts, and didn't regret it at all. They weren't expensive to start with, and ended up being very broke, safe horses that can show and drive and be great kids horses.

Everyone has their own situation, but bottom line is... to BE a STALLION you MUST have some good genes to pass along. Hopefully a stallion has EVERYTHING... pedigree, conformation, movement, type, presence, bloodlines, show record, ability to be trained, temperament, and NO weak links there anywhere.

I can buy a stallion who has potential and the basics... good movement, temperament, conformation, and bloodlines... and I can ADD training and show record so he has more "good points" to be ALL the stallion he can BE.

Not all horses are born with temperament, conformation, movement, bloodlines, parents with show records... and shame on the breeder for handicapping that foal by breeding inferior parents. Champions MAY produce champions but inferior horses WILL NOT produce champions. The equation generally only works one way.

I know RuffNTuff says that breeding Champion to Champion will ensure a Champion foal... but it increases the odds dramatically.

So many people just say "Oh he's the son of so-and-so and he's not bad looking...." and think that's what makes a great stallion. But we MUST be pickier and decide what we are truly going to invest in our breeding stock and what we are going to create for the future.

Andrea