Geld 'em!

[user 488]

Wow, 10 pages. Have any colts been gelded over this yet?

:

Just a little humor............ :lol: But if this thread touches one person then it has been worth it.

 

[mininik]

Ooo, you're bad, Carol! So bad and SO RIGHT. :stupid:

 

[Katiean]

I had 1 colt this year and yes, I had someone try to buy him. They came to me. I am not selling. So for people beating down my door, It happens and yes to me. I don't have anything due for next year and may not breed for the next. But, I have had offers.

 

[Jill]

Carol, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I think those three really should be gelded :bgrin

 

[susanne]

For those who hate my opinions, be forewarned...you can skip right over this post...

I am SOOOO sick and tired of this g.d., All-American, I got-a-right-to-breed-and-ain't-nobody-gonna-stop-me mentality!

I'm also sick of the "too refined to be good for anything" myth...It goes hand-in-hand with the "too much Shetland influence in miniature horses" myth.

As for the "poor marketing" suggestion...these are EXACTLY the people I would buy from. Give me those who are brave enough to offer their brutally honest opinion over the nicey-nice, oh, "he's so beautiful, you should never geld him" butt-ki$$ing folks any day. Thhe honest few may hurt my feelings momentarily, but they are the ones I would trust to be honest about the horses they sell.

Give me the registries that have Keurings and limit the horses that are allowed to breed -- or, to be more precise, that limit what horses' offspring are allowed to be registered. Of course, by the good ole "don't tread on me" attitude, that sounds a bit socialist...even downright Commie!!! Ooooohhh, how scarey!

Dangit -- I'm a friggin' American!! I'll breed my lug-headed stallion with stubby legs (but hey -- he's under 30 inches!!!) to my sweet mare with minimal dwarf features (I think her bulging forehead makes her look like an Arab) if I want to, and ain't nobody gonna stop me!

How in the world is breeding for good conformation wrong???????? A fad??? Give me a break!

And sorry -- those that deserve to be left intact have to have IT ALL -- great personality, good enough looks for halter class AND performance capabilities. And trust me, having spent time around Nootka's horses, they have all of that...AND they are gelded.

As for knowing whom to disregard, I'm sorry, but right from the start you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face by disregarding some of the most knowledgeable, most helpful folks on this forum.

Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best. I say this as a starving artist who cannot possibly afford a stallion that I would keep intact. Thus, my boys are geldings, with one gelding-to-be.

Sorry to vent, but this is one reason other breeds and people like the "Fugly Horse" blogsite go off on miniature horse owners. OF COURSE you love your horse...that doesn't mean they have to reproduce! OF COURSE a horse that won't win a halter class is just as lovable, and that gorgeous, unmanagable stallion is beautiful to watch from your living room window, but minis are overbred, and far too many end up at auctions or sadly neglected and abused...

Are you really so selfish as to say that your right to breed your horse supercedes the right of every animal born to lead a healthy, happy life?

Sorry, but it's not about you!

 

[disneyhorse]

Okay Susanne... that's a good point. I have always felt you should breed the best you can afford. But I guess if you CAN'T afford a Nationals-level stallion then sure, you shouldn't breed. But breeding is so expensive to begin with that I ASSUME most people would have that common sense. But of course they don't, always.

Andrea

 

[George]

From one American to another, WOW! That was a little overboard.

People are debating here and having a mild argument, not throwing a temper tantrum. care to join in?

 

[George]

Sorry, George...

Those minis being bred today MAY be a "hot fad" BUT (and this is assuming you are referring to the refined Shetland look) they do not just "blow over with a whisper" and are NOT "bred just for conformation."

No, the thought of the refined Shetland look did not cross my mind when I was typing my post. Also, my comment earlier was my opinion and once I thought about my comment I realized that there are people who do prefer the refined look. I've actually seen photo's of many refined horses that i think are stop in your tracks beautiful. I am sorry I made that comment since i am aware that I too may someday appreciate them as much as their breeders and owners do.

Have you been to Nationals in the past five years, George? Have you SEEN these Shetland minis in the driving ring? In my opinion the driving class quality of motion has improved in LEAPS AND BOUNDS... the minis are not just bred for size any more, they DO have refined conformation (are now free of the short thick leg and giant head for the most part) and they can MOVE.

I have never been to Nationals in the past 47 years let alone the past five years. The only movement I've seen from mini's is at the local shows or on youtube.

THe conformation being bred for, also is paired with more elegant movement. I remember when I first got into minis, it was more rare to find a mini that could pick up it's hocks and was anything more than a "dink dink" mover where now even the average horse can actually extend it's trot and hold it's head up naturally.

I prefer a horse that extends its trot and holds its head up

Breeders ARE breeding to improve the breed for the most part, whether or not it's the current "fad." As far as I have seen, the miniature breed is moving in the right direction, from concern about size to concern about conformation to concern about type and movement. That looks like a good thing to me!

Maybe in twenty years I will be repeating your words in regards to the improvements made.

The only thing I can do at this point is state my opinions. I can't speak for anyone else and I don't speak for anyone else. It is all about learning to me at this point. I may not always like what I read but I do think about what I read and try to see where the poster is coming from. Sometimes I understand from the start what they're trying to say and other times I am baffled and have to see it spelled out differently.

Andrea

 

[Minimor]

Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best.

Part of the issue here though is this question: "the best" by whose standards? There are those here that are convinced they have the best, far superior to anyone else's horses. I can say without a doubt that somewhere there is someone who would disagree that those people have the best--they would say that they don't like those horses at all, for whatever reason. Some believe that Nationals quality is the only quality worth having, yet the one day when I was talking to someone on the phone I was about to comment on a horse that was on the cover of a past issue of a magazine, & say isn't he lovely, only she beat me to it--by saying 'did you see that horse on the magazine? I don't like that at all!" I'd have said that the horse in question was one that many would aspire to having, but obviously not everyone does. She is raising a different type of horse and can't see anything wrong with it.

This same person visited a farm recently & commented that there was only one horse there that was any good. I'm in the process of writing a letter to her, and questioned her on two other horses that the farm did own, asking if those two horses were still there and pointing out that in my view those two horses were the only two from that farm that were worth having. Obviously we are in total disagreement over what is worth having--the two I mentioned are the better horses conformation wise & movement wise, but I would never convince her of that! :bgrin

Many feel the Shetland type is the way to go & personally I don't argue with that, I feel the Shetlands have much to offer the Mini breed--nothing to do with fads, just conformation & movement wise, Minis are lacking in some respects & the Shetlands can add a lot in those areas. Some, though, absolutely refuse to have a Shetland on the place, no matter how much Shetland there is already in Miniatures. Some want taller, some want smaller, some want longer necks, some don't want longer necks because they feel they are too long & snakey. The person that wants to raise horses for CDE may want a horse with a little more substance and bigger gaits, and the horse may not have the exact conformation that is winning in the show ring. Theoretically, if you are raising the most talented, athletic horses in the country, is it really wrong if they don't have quite the tabletop croup of a Nationals halter contender? That they couldn't go to Nationals & bring home a championship? Such a breeder might argue that if a National Champion can't go out & win a CDE, they shouldn't be breeding.

Inspections and 100 days tests are the best way to weed out horses that are sub-standard, but those inspections should include tests of the horse's performance ability as well--horses that can't move or perform shouldn't get accepted no matter how gorgeous they look when posed on the line, and the good movers and athletic performers must of course have good sound conformation--though that good sound conformation may not always be exactly what some think of as "nationals quality".

And inspections would not stop indiscriminate breeding, it would just put restrictions on which animals could be registered. The unregistered pet breeders would still be flourishing. After all, the Hanoverian (and other warmblood breed) inspections haven't stopped people from crossing their TB's on their draft horses. Locally there's a pretty good market for these crosses, just because many people around here cannot afford to go & buy a registered Oldenberg or Dutch Warmblood.

The focus needs to be on more geldings in the breed, not in pointing fingers and deciding whose stallion should or should not be breeding. There are all sorts of breeders that need to geld more horses, and when I say that I'm talking about gelding the foals they raise, not making any comment on their actual herdsire(s). And the need to geld more foals applies to all sorts of breeders--big name ones, small time ones, breeders of high quality animals, breeders of lesser quality animals--keep your herdsires, but geld their offspring. More geldings = fewer stallions; fewer stallions should = higher prices on stallions, and higher stallion prices will surely push up the demand for geldings. Higher demand = higher prices.

I know a big horse breeder that used to breed only her own mares with her stallion. She had a good horse, and his foals were in demand. She had many requests to breed outside mares and could have collected a lot of money in stud fees. She would not do it. Her philosophy was, if you wanted a foal by her stallion you had to come to her to buy one, you couldn't breed your own. And, when it came to sales, if she sold a colt as a stallion prospect, that colt had to be a darned good one. Also, she would not sell an intact colt locally--she might let one go across the country, but she would not sell one locally. Why not? Because if she sold one locally that could affect her local market. It's a strategy that could benefit Mini breeders. A lot.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Hellooooo folks we are back to square 1.

We can go round and round and round but bottom line is what is a Nationals level stallion? What is the best that you are waiting to afford?

I know of quite a few on here that have stallions they didnt spend alot of money on does that mean they are not the best? I know quite a few that have never been to nationals with there stallion but they feel it is good in fact Nationals quality so that makes it the best?

i have seen stallions win at Nationals that I wouldnt own as competitive geldings so does that make them the best?

I see horses posted on here that are touted with wonderful show records and as being the best of the best bred by the best blah blah blah and I can look at them and instantly see faults such as weak hips, over at the knees ect.. does that make me horrible? or them having the best?

I am sure I have horses that others feel the same way about if it were very black and white.. there would be no need to have more then one judge at a show as all placings would be the same. Even at the National level all you have to do is look at the judges cards and you can see it is purely subjective..

I have seen national champions who were placed 1 by the call judge maybe 5th by 2nd judge and not on the card for 3rd judge. (these numbers may not be exact but you get the idea)

the best is subjective period I hear about everyones ethics and programs and how what they are doing is better then so and so. Bottom line all we can do is be willing to continue to learn, be totally honest with ourselves on what we have learned and what we have out in our barns and do what we feel is right for our horses and ourselves. We cant police what others do,we can suggest when asked and do what we feel is right for ourselves.

 

[Buckskin gal]

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: I love it when someone puts into words many of my own thoughts. It is true that not everyone wants the influence of the modern Shetland in their breeding program ....I have several reasons for not wanting it but if someone else does then that is their perogative. There is room for both!

For the person who couldn't understand what they were reading about the patting on the back stuff I ask that you reread what was said because it did not say "many" it said "few". Lots of difference when something is read as it is wrote. And it was just an opinion, as all the things said here are. There were other things that seemed to be misread also but I am not going into all that, just want to remind this person that it is necessary to read things carefully and to understand that opinions are what is given by all on this forum. some of them we agree with and others we don't. Thanks for understanding. Mary

Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best.

Part of the issue here though is this question: "the best" by whose standards? There are those here that are convinced they have the best, far superior to anyone else's horses. I can say without a doubt that somewhere there is someone who would disagree that those people have the best--they would say that they don't like those horses at all, for whatever reason. Some believe that Nationals quality is the only quality worth having, yet the one day when I was talking to someone on the phone I was about to comment on a horse that was on the cover of a past issue of a magazine, & say isn't he lovely, only she beat me to it--by saying 'did you see that horse on the magazine? I don't like that at all!" I'd have said that the horse in question was one that many would aspire to having, but obviously not everyone does. She is raising a different type of horse and can't see anything wrong with it.

This same person visited a farm recently & commented that there was only one horse there that was any good. I'm in the process of writing a letter to her, and questioned her on two other horses that the farm did own, asking if those two horses were still there and pointing out that in my view those two horses were the only two from that farm that were worth having. Obviously we are in total disagreement over what is worth having--the two I mentioned are the better horses conformation wise & movement wise, but I would never convince her of that! :bgrin

Many feel the Shetland type is the way to go & personally I don't argue with that, I feel the Shetlands have much to offer the Mini breed--nothing to do with fads, just conformation & movement wise, Minis are lacking in some respects & the Shetlands can add a lot in those areas. Some, though, absolutely refuse to have a Shetland on the place, no matter how much Shetland there is already in Miniatures. Some want taller, some want smaller, some want longer necks, some don't want longer necks because they feel they are too long & snakey. The person that wants to raise horses for CDE may want a horse with a little more substance and bigger gaits, and the horse may not have the exact conformation that is winning in the show ring. Theoretically, if you are raising the most talented, athletic horses in the country, is it really wrong if they don't have quite the tabletop croup of a Nationals halter contender? That they couldn't go to Nationals & bring home a championship? Such a breeder might argue that if a National Champion can't go out & win a CDE, they shouldn't be breeding.

Inspections and 100 days tests are the best way to weed out horses that are sub-standard, but those inspections should include tests of the horse's performance ability as well--horses that can't move or perform shouldn't get accepted no matter how gorgeous they look when posed on the line, and the good movers and athletic performers must of course have good sound conformation--though that good sound conformation may not always be exactly what some think of as "nationals quality".

And inspections would not stop indiscriminate breeding, it would just put restrictions on which animals could be registered. The unregistered pet breeders would still be flourishing. After all, the Hanoverian (and other warmblood breed) inspections haven't stopped people from crossing their TB's on their draft horses. Locally there's a pretty good market for these crosses, just because many people around here cannot afford to go & buy a registered Oldenberg or Dutch Warmblood.

The focus needs to be on more geldings in the breed, not in pointing fingers and deciding whose stallion should or should not be breeding. There are all sorts of breeders that need to geld more horses, and when I say that I'm talking about gelding the foals they raise, not making any comment on their actual herdsire(s). And the need to geld more foals applies to all sorts of breeders--big name ones, small time ones, breeders of high quality animals, breeders of lesser quality animals--keep your herdsires, but geld their offspring. More geldings = fewer stallions; fewer stallions should = higher prices on stallions, and higher stallion prices will surely push up the demand for geldings. Higher demand = higher prices.

I know a big horse breeder that used to breed only her own mares with her stallion. She had a good horse, and his foals were in demand. She had many requests to breed outside mares and could have collected a lot of money in stud fees. She would not do it. Her philosophy was, if you wanted a foal by her stallion you had to come to her to buy one, you couldn't breed your own. And, when it came to sales, if she sold a colt as a stallion prospect, that colt had to be a darned good one. Also, she would not sell an intact colt locally--she might let one go across the country, but she would not sell one locally. Why not? Because if she sold one locally that could affect her local market. It's a strategy that could benefit Mini breeders. A lot.

 

[nootka]

To me, it is not arbitrary, the "basics" and that is what I see people ignoring:

DO NOT breed those dwarfs (they may be "minimal" but that's what they are, it's like being a little bit pregnant, ain't no such thing), and do not breed those with heritable defects that directly affect soundness. Avoid the truly bad-tempered, or poor-minded horse, and go from there with your (insert "fad look here") overo, pinto, appaloosa, blue-eyed, buckskin, falabella, under 28", over 34", Arenosa, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

I don't even say this because this is MY particular way of thinking, I am ONLY saying it because there are live animals being affected by what WE all do.

When you undertake a business, you must have a bit of a thick skin to begin with, because sooner or later, somewhere, you will overhear someone criticizing something you have sold or have for sale. It isn't easy, but it can be a learning experience. Sometimes they have valid concerns. Other times, it is merely a matter of opinion. Have the brains to know which is which, and keep your emotions out of it.

These are not human children, so for someone to say, "oh, he has such crooked little ugly legs" does not carry the same implication. Your children are not born for the sole reason of working and/or breeding. Many Miniatures ARE!

To look the other way in the guise of love or anything less than what's best for the animals' welfare is just poor business practices. Look at how we got here (with the market flooded and can't give away decent quality colts or geldings)....ten to twenty years ago, it was the norm to run the numbers (this was my first bit of advice from not just one but several breeders, just breed any and everything).

We won't get anywhere different unless we all change our tunes.

So, I've enjoyed this discussion thoroughly....really I have, though it has me gritting my teeth now and then for the stubbornness some people throw up in the guise of "us vs. them" it is "us vs. us" and that's not really reasonable.

If I never have another horse for sale, if I got out of it entirely, I would still want to think that people were making better breeding choices and truly culling out those that are not suitable to be bred, taking their time to make purchases instead of coming home with an adorable little auction rescue and then deciding to breed them just because. I want to see these horses truly LOOK like little QH, little Arabian, etc. in the future, but that's not all that realistic if we lose our focus and quit paying attention to such things as proportion and correct conformation.

If anyone were interested, I have a photographic history of where I"ve been with my herd and my breeding decisions, and they could tell me have I been successful or not in moving forward. I want my horses to "do" and "look" beautiful, and I want them to be easily managed as a healthy horse w/a minimum of care instead of having to have frequent hoof and dental visits just because they have a leg turned here, or an off bite, etc. I want them to not have to have surgery to be sound, nor have to be fed special diets. I am NOT breeding the hardiness out of my animals to chase a fad.

My two geldings are "built" and while they have their shortcomings, they should remain sound and healthy given the parents as well as their own conformation.

There's no money in producing inferior animals, there just isn't. Cheater types aside, who don't put the right care and attention to their animals, I just don't see where those that are only able to get $500 per foal are MAKING a thing.

I'm glad everyone's hanging in and reading, even if they have gotten upset at some misunderstood sleight. I have not intended any offense to anyone...you should see what my "herd" looked like at one time.

:

I am very proud of mine, now, though I have ideas on ways to improve that.

Liz M.

 

[nightflight]

So....

Setting aside the discussion of who has the best balls for the moment...

I was reading that there are a number of people who feel that the cost of gelding is preventing them and others for gelding as many horses as they would like to. I think on page one or two there is a program that my club uses to help people with just that issue. If anyone would like to put a program like that to work in their area I would be glad to help. It's going to take....

1) Some brainstorming and a donated day to put on a fundraiser.

2) Some time on the phone to find out how big your incentives should be and to find vets who will offer reduced rates if you can get groups together.

3) Some time talking to the board of your club to sell them on the program.

If you feel that strongly about encouraging geldings donate a few days of your time to make it affordable. It doesn't matter who uses the program as long as it gets used. It's for the breed, not the breeders.

Regards,

 

[Minimor]

You're right Liz, people--breeders--should never skimp on good, sound conformation, even if the size/type/conformation isn't what is currently "Nationals quality". Sadly, sometimes it isn't really the fault of the breeder if they are breeding a minimal dwarf and don't even know it.

Certainly anyone just getting into the breed--or just getting into horses--should learn all they can about conformation and how conformation affects health and soundness before they jump into breeding. But sometimes those new people put their faith in the wrong person--they go to a breeder that they figure is a big name, reputable breeder, and they ask all the right questions, but get all the wrong answers. The breeder convinces them that the minimal dwarf he/she has for sale is a worthy breeding animal--look at the fancy pedigree, the small size, the pretty color, all the trophies and titles the sire has won, the high price tag--buy this horse and you'll be in business, you won't go wrong because you can show this horse and learn with him & then you can breed with him later. The buyer goes away with an overpriced little horse thinking they really have something.

It can be a bitter pill to swallow when that buyer finally realizes how badly he/she got took. They believed the word of someone that sounded knowledgeable and acted oh so helpful and they paid a high price (you get what you pay for, right? How many times have we heard that on here?? Low price must mean there is something wrong with the horse, some have said they won't even look at a low priced horse. Relatively then, a high price must guarantee quality?) and then they start noticing that their little horse doesn't look the same as the other little horses they see at the shows winning the ribbons.

I don't think a lot of people are actually "ignoring" bad conformation. I think a lot of them just don't know any better. They do not understand form to function, and how conformation flaws can lead to unsoundnesses. I'm not sure that not knowing is any better than ignoring, but at least it is something that some gentle education might help.

 

[George]

:aktion033:

You're right Liz, people--breeders--should never skimp on good, sound conformation, even if the size/type/conformation isn't what is currently "Nationals quality". Sadly, sometimes it isn't really the fault of the breeder if they are breeding a minimal dwarf and don't even know it.

Certainly anyone just getting into the breed--or just getting into horses--should learn all they can about conformation and how conformation affects health and soundness before they jump into breeding. But sometimes those new people put their faith in the wrong person--they go to a breeder that they figure is a big name, reputable breeder, and they ask all the right questions, but get all the wrong answers. The breeder convinces them that the minimal dwarf he/she has for sale is a worthy breeding animal--look at the fancy pedigree, the small size, the pretty color, all the trophies and titles the sire has won, the high price tag--buy this horse and you'll be in business, you won't go wrong because you can show this horse and learn with him & then you can breed with him later. The buyer goes away with an overpriced little horse thinking they really have something.

It can be a bitter pill to swallow when that buyer finally realizes how badly he/she got took. They believed the word of someone that sounded knowledgeable and acted oh so helpful and they paid a high price (you get what you pay for, right? How many times have we heard that on here?? Low price must mean there is something wrong with the horse, some have said they won't even look at a low priced horse. Relatively then, a high price must guarantee quality?) and then they start noticing that their little horse doesn't look the same as the other little horses they see at the shows winning the ribbons.

I don't think a lot of people are actually "ignoring" bad conformation. I think a lot of them just don't know any better. They do not understand form to function, and how conformation flaws can lead to unsoundnesses. I'm not sure that not knowing is any better than ignoring, but at least it is something that some gentle education might help.

 

[nightflight]

On that breeding for the $500 foals...

I wish I had enough money to take that kind of loss on every foal! I couldn't afford it.

 

[shoeboxstables]

Well this thread has definatly made me consider gelding my stallion. Looking at my present situation- it's just logical. Thank you for posting this! It may lead to some good after all.

 

[PaintNminis]

Great!!!

I gelded 2 Stallions in 05

and they were great

 

[kaykay]

In a nutshell the only person i can truly control is myself and what I do. So I geld ruthlessly and I constantly promote what great horses geldings are to every person that comes to my farm. I always encourage anyone new to horses to buy a gelding first even if I dont have one for sale. I have only been breeding for 6 years but I have never sold an intact stallion with my farm name. To me its a quest. When I do breed one great enough to stay a stallion he will probably stay here

Some of our recent geldings

Baxters Hot N Dandy gelding

Baxters Code Red

And because I sold all mine i bought and gelded one for my son and i to have fun with

buckeye wfc classical notice aka jet he has already paid back his purchase price in winnings

 

[miniwhinny]

In a nutshell the only person i can truly control is myself and what I do. So I geld ruthlessly and I constantly promote what great horses geldings are to every person that comes to my farm. I always encourage anyone new to horses to buy a gelding first even if I dont have one for sale. I have only been breeding for 6 years but I have never sold an intact stallion with my farm name. To me its a quest. When I do breed one great enough to stay a stallion he will probably stay here

Some of our recent geldings

THANK YOU :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: YOU are the solution. A breeder who gelds. Slinging mud at other peoples stallions isnt the answer (and its just not very nice) It's the breeders who will make a difference. Breeders need to stop labeling every colt as "herd sire" material and geld. Well done :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: