Geld 'em!

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I know it can get annoying to rehash the same subject over and over. However, I haven't been here for the previous discussions so I enjoyed reading the article and the resulting discussion, for the most part.

If nothing else, it reminds me to call my vet and see what he charges for gelding. We have nothing to geld right now, but we will in the future. Whatever the cost is, I'm just going to lump it in as a 'breeding expense' right along with the stud fee and such.
 
whoever said " they can't afford it" then you shouldn't breed. I would pay a $1,000 per horse if that is what it cost to have mine gelded! The horse is happier and so is the owner. There is no way I would want to show a stallion full time. I showed mine for a year, he was a joy, he HOF'ed and was the National GRAND Champion at the AMHR Nationals, he acts like a gelding. (only one mare bred for next year, and we will keep it wether it is filly or colt) However his colts were gelded, I don't need more stallions, I love showing and I want to enjoy the time I spend with my horses, not worried about resale one bit here, I'm more worried about safety and having a good time. I honestly feel that when I am done showing a horse or I am ready to move on, upgrade whatever you want to call it, I enjoy finding the right home for the horse rather than make a big ole profit I can get excited about. These horses are my second set of kids, thank goodness I didn't have as many kids as ponies!!! That is not always easy to put a price on.

It is just as fun to win with a GELDING as it is a stallion. I will have 4 geldings and one mare on my show string for next year! And if I take a national GRAND with a Gelding I can reassure you I will feel just as happy as I did with my stallion....

The reason the market is low for geldings is becuase of peoples opinions thinking it can't reproduce, it aint doodoo!

JMO!
 
fair to a stallion to keep him intact "just because."

to BE a STALLION you MUST have some good genes to pass along. Hopefully a stallion has EVERYTHING... pedigree, conformation, movement, type, presence, bloodlines, show record, ability to be trained, temperament, and NO weak links there anywhere.

I know RuffNTuff says that breeding Champion to Champion will ensure a Champion foal... but it increases the odds dramatically.

Andrea
Ok first off a champion to a champion will NOT ALWAYS get you a champion is what I say
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and that fact is PROVEN EVERY DAY on EVERY BREEDING FARM

And while I agree on what you say on what a stallion needs to have.. the reality is the whole problem is that everyone seems to think that is what there stallion has..... we all read this thread and say oh ya I GET IT IT DOESNT APPLY TO ME why doesnt everyone else get it...

Bottom line is minis is the only breed geldings are worthless this happens and is said over and over again and until we as breeders/sellers CHANGE it it wont change. If all everyone could get was geldings and only 30 percent of the boys say were stallions well that would increase the market for both geldings and stallions but bottom line is somehow for some reason many on this board and in this breed feel that a gelding means the handler is inferior.. it is looked at as a failure of some sort - as if you have a stallion you surely MUST BE a better horseman... i say HOGWASH you want to talk resale value.. hmmmm why not look at some of those olympic horses that are geldings to reining horses that are geldings, barrel horses, hunters, jumpers the list goes on and on

HAVING AND GELDING A FOAL OF YOUR BREEDING IS NOT A FAILURE- IT DOES NOT EQUAL INFERIOR
 
Go to any big horse show and tell me how many stallions you see. Compare that to the number of geldings. Generally, unless you are a big name breeding farm, you dont show a stud. They generally PREFER gelding because they dont come into heat at your shows, and act moody, and they arent smelling all of the girls and getting ansty.
 
I've said this a million times, but I think the answer lies with getting artificial insemination / frozen semen allowed and the technology perfected. Collect your stallion, freeze it, geld him if you want... you're covered for all scenarios. Otherwise , gelding is genetic death and irreversible. .Just about every show dog Champion including mine has frozen in storage. It's not cheap, and the AKC requires DNA testing. I'm glad it is there though.

Daryl
 
20 years ago... the horses tended to be short on leg... and bulkier overall. With a few notable exceptions. Some dwarf stallions were still contributing to the gene pool. Anything with four legs was bred to anything else with four legs - and yes - that may still happen today - but most people are somewhat more discerning now.

20 years ago - my Equine Reproductive Physiology class was presented with a How To Foal video that had been put together by a mini breeder - not as an example of good procedures. The advice in that video was extremely.... let's say "bizarre"... at times... and the featured foal... was a dwarf.

I would like to think that we have come a long way in 20 years... and moved forward. Well, I don't just think that - I know we have. You look at a horse like Miss Kentucky today - and she looks like a horse - not like a champion mare of 20 years ago who might have been more of a Thelwell pony.

We have gelded National Champion stallions here - without a backward glance. And they have simply switched to being National Champion geldings - or gone on to happy lives as pets. Any regrets? No.

And yes - the first rule of breeding is breed the best to the best and HOPE for the best.... sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't - but we have the stewardship of the breed... and IMO should not be breeding (or not gelding) out of convenience - but with responsibility - for the improvement/advancement of the breed - whether you have 3 horses - or 30.

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I love to geld, and my vet loves to geld...........but my vet dont geld babies. Anybody got a vet they can send me that would do foals?
 
Lisa said, " Bottom line is minis is the only breed geldings are worthless this happens and is said over and over again and until we as breeders/sellers CHANGE it it wont change. "

I wouldn't go so far as to say mini geldings are worthless. In fact, the highest selling mini/pony at the large Billings Mini/pony sale several weeks ago was a gelding that hubby had trained to drive. Spent many hours ground driving him to where he was steady to most anything. Because he was well trained he sold well....bringing a higher price than those who were well bred and had even done winning at shows in halter. This sale has been a yearly sale for about 7 years and every time I have noticed that any gentle well trained mini or pony brought the better prices. I think these buyers have the big horse mentality that geldings are best for their kids and for those who enjoy the pleasure of driving. Maybe the colts not only need to be gelded but they also need to be trained......big horse geldings that are well trained bring some very good prices here also. I wish all people would tke the time to make their minis usable for something besides breeding and then they could sell as such. Mary

P.S. This gelding was not a mini we bred, it was a mini that was given to us because of being unwanted....we took him and made him wanted by someone.
 
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I think that some of these posts are unfair, and give the impression to readers that they are bad horsepeople if they keep a stud. For many of the reasons noted, yeah,gelding makes more sense. But it is not cut and dry plan for everyone.

I am about to buy a little colt, who I fully intent on keeping intact. He is of stallion quality, though I am not buying him as a breeding prospect. I am experienced and knowledgable and I prefer to show a stud, and I like the extra spunk that they have. He be pasture buddies with a gelding, since I have that option.

I really don't think it is anyones place to tell me I am doing something wrong, or setting my horse up to live a sad life.

Instead of just saying, everyone or most people should geld, why don't you tackle the problem in a useful manner, and start educating owners or prospective owners about the options and challenges that are faced when owning a stallion. The problem is inexperience, not stallions.
 
am experienced and knowledgable and I prefer to show a stud, and I like the extra spunk that they have. He be pasture buddies with a gelding, since I have that option.
and do you have a place to put him when he decides he no longer likes the gelding and wants to kill him?
 
Matt, well said. The problem isn't with owning a stallion or even two or three the problem is using them to further the production of more horses. I agree that a mini stallion doesn't have to live a sad life for they are trainable. Sure they aren't for everyone but for those who have the time for them and have inherited good dispositions they sure are pleasurable. Mary

I think that some of these posts are unfair, and give the impression to readers that they are bad horsepeople if they keep a stud. For many of the reasons noted, yeah,gelding makes more sense. But it is not cut and dry plan for everyone.

I am about to buy a little colt, who I fully intent on keeping intact. He is of stallion quality, though I am not buying him as a breeding prospect. I am experienced and knowledgable and I prefer to show a stud, and I like the extra spunk that they have. He be pasture buddies with a gelding, since I have that option.

I really don't think it is anyones place to tell me I am doing something wrong, or setting my horse up to live a sad life.

Instead of just saying, everyone or most people should geld, why don't you tackle the problem in a useful manner, and start educating owners or prospective owners about the options and challenges that are faced when owning a stallion. The problem is inexperience, not stallions.
 
Instead of just saying, everyone or most people should geld, why don't you tackle the problem in a useful manner, and start educating owners or prospective owners about the options and challenges that are faced when owning a stallion. The problem is inexperience, not stallions.
No, the problem is breeders perputating a mindset AND failing to just accept certain hard facts about the Miniature business model.

I've been involved in this breed for going on 20 years now. I can't tell you how many "new owners" with ZERO horse experience buy a crummy colt and filly fully planning on breeding more crummy foals- all under the watchful eye of the breeder who sold them said crummy foals.

I can't fault the breeders for watching their bottomline. Why geld a colt worth $1,000 and devalue him to $500, while having $300 in expenses to accomplish it? From a business perspective, that doesn't make a lick of sense. From the "responsible breeder" standpoint, if the colt is that unremarkable he's worth $1,000, what the heck business does he have reproducing? It's a catch 22.

This really is, in my opinion, a problem placed on the breeders' shoulders- and every one of us has a part in making it. I think there are several solutions. The most obvious one is stop breeding for a "hobby" or "for fun" and using average joe smoe stock. I'm spitting into the wind on that one because I know people will say:

"They're my horses, I love them and take care of them and if I want to have a couple of (crummy) foals every year, I will. Mind your own business"

So is the answer then something like what they've done with dogs- non breeding papers? I've been rolling the idea around in my head and wondering if it wouldn't help somewhat. It would give breeders the option of selling colts ENTIRE but making future breeding potential very limited. Not impossible (as with a gelding/spaying) but not nearly so appealing nor easy. You're not telling people what they can or can't do, you're just telling them "You can, BUT..." and letting them make their own choices.
 
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I've said it once and I'll say it again on this post... EVERYONE thinks their horses are worth breeding. OR they wouldn't have them. THAT'S the problem, barn blindness. The problem is not the people that ARE gelding their colts, the problem starts with people that don't know the BREED STANDARD... I've met many many miniature horse breeders that don't know the standard. If you ask them if they know it, they give you a blank look and say... "Breed Standard??" EVERYONE needs to learn and know the breed standard. Knowing it can protect you from barn blindness. I have a whole article about it on my website...

Anyway! I wish we could spay mares. Around here the vets will only do it if there is some Huge medical problem and it's needed for the health of the mare. But there is a new shot you can give your mares, it acts like a birth control. I am looking into it for my main driving mare. Conformationally she has things that I wouldn't want to pass onto a foal... Here are a couple of pictures of her!

Chamomile

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She is a beautiful moving mare, but conformationally, she is not as close to perfect as I can get. That would be Whiskey
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: Anyhow! Just my two cents and of course this is all my personal opinion....
 
No, the whole issue isn't people that choose to have some idealistic "stallion/stud" horse running around their place, or even twenty of them, if they are a horseman or horsewoman enough to handle them safely and keep them emotionally and physically happy, it is those that are just breeding for the heck of it, basically, and when it boils down to it, those people that are breeding for the "few hundred" a piece market, are pretty much not making money at it, so I don't fully understand.

It will and always be, as has been stated, those that seem stuck in the past, and refuse to fully comprehend that we're trying to move forward to the "standard" which is a HORSE in miniature, not a dwarfed pony.

Yes, we're technically breeding ponies, but look at the Shetlands in the ring today, they don't look anything like the dwarfy tiny things, they have way better proportions, and I have seen Miniatures under 34" even under 30" that have better proportions, so I know it IS possible.

It's just less likely when more people breed any and everything.

It starts with gelding the inferior, and I hate to even say it, but the majority of people breeding as a sideline or hobby are doing NO justice to the breed.

The ONLY lucky thing for me with the first few foals I produced was that they were colts that could be GELDED so my mistakes ended there. I have the first filly I produced as a mare, she is the dam of the gelding in my avatar, as well as Pyro. She is not what I would choose today as a broodmare, but luckily she's outproduced herself when I've chosen her mates very carefully.

I will gladly retire her when I get a filly as nice as or nicer than her, and MOVE ON.

The same would go for a stallion.

I choose not to own a stallion because I could likely not afford to purchase a stallion of the caliber that I want to breed to. Does that mean I have to save my $$ to maybe breed every other year because of that? Fine. Sounds like a good start at population control and gives me a lot more time to market my foals/grow them up, show them and train them.

Perhaps we should not be so focused on selling our foal crops as weanlings and look at a more realistic timeline of devoting a year, two or three to getting them grown and trained and offer more finished "products" to our market? It would require less breeding to save room for these, but what's wrong with that?

SOME will sell young, but others won't...it's a fact, and yet everyone seems to toss the mare right back in with the stallion year after year.

If you have a limited budget, do your homework, save up, and buy ONE nice horse from which to begin your "empire", not a half-dozen you found at the auction in hopes that they will clean up nice (that is if your'e breeding, more power to you if you rescue) and produce more babies that are at risk of hitting the auction themselves.

How many posts (and there was just one recently) do we see where someone goes to a farm and picks out one boy and one girl horse, and all the starry-eyed plans to breed them to each other down the road? Why does this raise our hackles?

Any of us that's been doing this any time at all know that it may well be unlikely to find both your "future herd prospects" at the same farm, the same age, and for sale as weanlings that we could tell were of the quality we should be breeding. Oftentimes these same posters will be brand new to horses/minis and asking questions that make us cringe when they've already gotten to the point (in their minds) of welcoming that new foal into the world. Not that they are wrong to come and ask, to come and learn, because any one of us is MORE than happy to offer that, but that they would leap before they looked, and get to that point without enough thought and knowledge put into such a serious consideration.

Over the years, I've helped a few people realize that there were better choices, and made many myself. We all have to start somewhere. If just one person rethinks their breeding program for the better, then every single letter of all these posts was well worth it.

I guess I've talked or typed myself blue in the face over this one, but we're all responsible for making better decisions, and we're all learning. No one of us has the right to say they have it 100% right. I think the ones getting defensive are reading something into this message that's not there. The ones not saying a thing are hopefully looking and thinking, and/or finding a good mentor to help them.

There are some great resources out there, and guess what, none of them are going to force you to buy their stock or make it a requirement before they help out. I know this from experience.

Liz M.
 
Mindy, what a lovely driving horse your mare is! She may not be perfect in conformation, but she sure comes into herself in harness.

Mindy is right--everyone does think their horses are worth breeding, though I think there are a few that have more the attititude "I know they aren't great but they're mine & I can breed them if I want to, SO THERE!"--I do sense that attitude in a few. And lets face it, no matter how good the horses are, there will always be someone that won't like those horses. There are lots of people who won't like my horses, and there are many horses I don't like--there are some show ring champions that you couldn't GIVE to me--there are those horses I look at & think they are nice, yet there's something about them that also make me add "but not what I would want". We're not breeding for sale, yet have had people that did want to buy our horses if only we would agree to sell--which means that there are other people out there that do like our horses. I know what their faults are--believe me I'm very hard on my own horses when I evaluate them--but I also know their good points, & in the breeding we've done we've mostly gotten what we are wanting in our horses.

We geld a lot--close to half our herd consists of geldings, all but 2 of those we have gelded. And we have several more to geld, not because they are especially poor in quality, just because we don't want them as stallions.

I don't get all the hostility that shows up in these gelding threads. No one is pointing fingers and saying you should geld, or you over there should geld--it's just about numbers in general. There are simply way too many stallions in the Mini breed, and quite frankly I don't get it. Geldings should be worth something. Geldings would be worth something if you--we--all of us--MADE them worth something.

If $250 or $350 is too much for gelding because you can't sell a gelding for much more than that...then what do you on average get for those same horses as stallions? Do you really get $1000 and up for them as stallions? Or do you let them go cheap for $350 to $500 just to get rid of them, and figure that's an okay price because you haven't laid out any money for gelding in order to get that price??? And if you sell them on application, that's a little more money that you don't have to lay out prior to selling?

If they aren't worth the cost of gelding, then they really aren't worth much are they?? And if they aren't worth the cost of registration, they're worth even less. I fail to see how a horse is worth anything as a stallion if he isn't worth the cost of gelding.

If people want geldings to be worth something, then I'd suggest that people should start gelding their colts, decide what each of those geldings is worth, set that price & then stick to it. Don't give away the horse for a pittance--don't leave him intact and sell him for a pittance just to get rid of him (think about it--if all these colts & stallions weren't available cheap because they're all gelded & priced a worthwhile price, buyers would be more inclined to buy a gelding! Stallions worthy of being stallions would be priced accordingly higher, all others would be gelded and priced accordingly....realistically they would be cheaper than the stallions, but would still have good "worthwhile" prices...and so buying a gelding would be much more attractive to many.) If you have to hold onto that horse awhile until you get your price, then do it. If you find you're holding on to too many, well, quit breeding until you get them sold. Perhaps train them & then sell them...

I had one gelding for sale awhile back (had absolutely no intention of selling him intact, gelding contract or no, so he was gelded before being advertised) & I had a query from someone that wanted to know if I'd sell him without papers at a drastically reduced price. After all, she said, there are many horses advertised much cheaper. I told her point blank that she should go & buy one of those other advertised horses then if she wants cheap and unregistered. My gelding was worth his asking price & I was not going to sell him without his papers--nor was I going to drop his price. He did sell elsewhere a short time after that, for his asking price.

The subject of giveaway geldings is a sore point with me. I have this lovely little gelding, Dusty, who started his life as one of the many throwaway geldings in this breed. One of about a hundred foals born to his breeder that year he and several other colts were given away to a buyer that bought a high priced filly. Buyer could then take the colts home & resell them, thus recouping some of the filly's purchase price. Dusty was shuffled through a couple homes before I found him starving in a pasture. I brought him home, fed him up and have made him into a nice little driving horse. He's a pet that will never leave here. We pastured him at a neighbor's one summer, and poor Dusty went into a decline--even though I went over at least once a day with oats & bug spray I guess that pasture reminded him of his previous sorry existance, and it worried him. I ended up bringing him home & he perked right up again--he seems to just like being around home, knowing he's not forgotten & unloved! :lol: Anyway, I just get very hostile every time I think about Dusty being given away as he was--virtually worthless, and given away just to get rid of him. The breeder said she was happy to know I'd rescued him--she hates to know that they end up in a bad situation like I found Dusty in--but honestly I don't think she cares, because she just continues with the same cycle. If the colts aren't worth more than just being given away....why keep raising them??? I just don't get it. :no:

Bottom line, though, is that Mini geldings aren't going to be worth anything until Mini breeders make them worth something!
 
([SIZE=8pt]Oh Flip, here she goes again, just ignore her and she will go away).[/SIZE]
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There is NO other breed in which animals are kept entire in the way that Miniatures are.

Now EVERYONE can have a stallion!!

Wow and impress all your friends, too, and live your dream.

For me it is not about what is best for ME it is what is best for the horse and, nine times out of ten, gelding is best for the horse.

Simple as that.

If you do not intend to breed it, geld it.

That is what is best for the horse.

You can kid yourself about all the rest if you want.

If you are going to keep it entire make sure it is 100% worthy (nothing to do with showing, BTW although that seems to be the easiest way to judge in the first instance) and make sure it will get enough mares to keep it happy.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. :ugh: :deadhorse2:
 
I own two (or 1.5!) stallions (and 6 geldings). I am confident about the REASONS my stallions are stallions, and I sure didn't get the impression I should be doing any re-thinking as a result of this thread. If you really know you have an outstanding stallion, you're not going to be feeling defensive reading this thread. If you do feel defensive, you maybe want to take a better look at what you actually have on your hands.

With so many mini stallions, only top notch halter horses need to stay whole and then only if the owner really has a use for them as a stallin (vs. as a gelding). Most mini breeders are not breeding for quality. They are breeding because they have a mare and a stallion. THAT's what's wrong with the breed.

QUESTION -- does anyone know the registry statistics as to how many stallions vs. how many geldings are "out there" ? (I bet if so, it will be a depressing number!)
 
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Excellent, succinct post, Jill.

I do not know about the AMHA at the moment but I do know in the UK we have a breeding age entire animals for EVERY breeding age mare- this is totally irrespective of either animals quality.

These are the statics I find scary!!!
 
I own two (or 1.5!) stallions (and 6 geldings). I am confident about the REASONS my stallions are stallions, and I sure didn't get the impression I should be doing any re-thinking as a result of this thread. If you really know you have an outstanding stallion, you're not going to be feeling defensive reading this thread. If you do feel defensive, you maybe want to take a better look at what you actually have on your hands.
I didn't really direct this at you, Jill. You are one of those people I truly admire for the time and research you put into your herd well before you started really breeding.

I think you're a long ways ahead of most of us, and I wish I'd started out as wisely as you have.

I still think every last one of us needs to be constantly keeping an eye on our herds, as it is a dynamic thing, and will need refining (as in say the stallion's not seeming to nick with a certain mare, or maybe he's not throwing quality better than himself, etc. etc.) as it progresses over the years.

Still others need to take a step back and truly evaluate their breeding animals vs. their goals as well as what is currently the higher standard as we strive for the breed standard.

NOT necessarily what's in style in the ring, but what's in style in the ring generally has a common feature: correct conformation and we can argue that all day long, but the majority are far better proportioned and have less conformational defects which will result in unsoundness. Don't care what size or aspect you want to excel in, there are higher standards we should all be moving towards and if we're not doing better with each generation, then something's wrong.

Right now I have two geldings and four mares, one is retired and the other mare is just a weanling. MAYBE one mare bred for next year to an outside stallion.

Liz M.
 
I have a question and I hope this doesn't start any flaming, but if you repeatedly breed every year and you are striving to better the breed (which everybody swears they are doing)...then why on earth would you ever sell a colt without gelding him first??? I have heard others say that it would be just too expensive to geld 2, 3, 5, 10+ colts every year, but if you can't AFFORD to better the breed, then why breed to begin with?

If you think about it logically...if MOST colts were gelded, then that would mean that A LOT less foals would be produced each year (by those who don't know what they are doing or just don't care), and the couple extra hundred dollars you spent gelding could bring you a lot more money in the future as numbers of minis start to decline (making them bigger in demand). To me, if you sell ungelded colts for whatever reason, then you don't have a right to complain about the overpopulation of grade minis and a decreased market for them.
 

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