Appy questions

[Becky]

I would think that the more you outcross to non Appaloosa, the weaker the color link is going to be.

I would certainly think that to be true. At least it is with pintos. Following the laws of genetics, breeding one pinto to a solid with no pinto, gives you a 50% chance of getting pinto (heterozygous). Breeding two pintos together increases that chance and could give you a homozygous individual (if they are both carrying the same pattern and pass it on).

Again, following the laws of genetics, breeding two appaloosas together carrying like patterns would increase the odds of getting that pattern in the resulting offspring. The foal could be minimal or maximum in it's expression depending on what other genes come into play.

 

[HGFarm]

Well do we have some fun experimenting to do here!! LOL

I have never heard of a horse silvering out either. My silvers have all been that at birth and either developed Appy roaning, varnish, etc... My silver filly is just LOADED with dapples now. But they have all stayed silver, like they were born. Maybe it is not a 'silver' gene that is making yours fade but something else or a strong roaning gene? Do you have any picture examples?

Any body else have any pics of color changes or examples of patterns to show?

 

[ohmt]

I'll add one more to show an appy+non appy cross

Dam: Solid chestnut, zero appy breeding (GMB and Contender bred)

Sire: Bay Leopard Appy

And their 2010 colt-born solid chestnut, no characteristics, identical to his dam

When I clipped him at 2 months I noticed his face was getting a lot of white hairs. When he kept getting more and more I realized he was varnishing. When I clipped him I found a ton of appy spots across his rump and saw this the varnishing was not just on his face, but was happening all over his body. These are terrible pictures because my clipper died half way through, but you can see all the spots and varnishing.

 

[AnnaC]

Having just read through all 9 pages of this topic, I am totally bog eyed, full of newfound information and having so much fun that I cant resist in joining in!!

So here are a few of mine - have dug out all sorts of pics from the years, so please dont look at the quality/backgrounds/quick pasture snaps etc - we are just talking colour combinations here ok? LOL!!

First Daddy - Argentine Falabella import - liver chestnut (uk speak!) with 4 white socks and a black 3" diameter circle on left buttock - throws colour.

Next - Mummy - Varnished near Leopard (????)

First foal from these two - filly (guess who's the g.g/sire of Mummy LOL!!)

Then they had a colt who started like this.....

Continued on next post - got too many pics apparently!!

Anna

 

[AnnaC]

To continue.....

And as a 2y.o looked like this......

Both these first two foals were squat, tubby little bodies and are still the same as now 5 and 3 year olds, but then we got this - pic taken at a day old........ a leggy, refined bodied BAY filly!

She is now a 2 y.o and a bay/dun, still refined and with absolutely NO white anywhere! So where did she come from LOL!!

More combinations to come tomorrow - it's 11pm here in the uk and I'm bushed! May this topic run and run.

Anna.

 

[Becky]

Hey, Diane, glad to see you bring this thread back to life!

I don't know about your horses, but I have seen many appaloosas that do carry the grey gene. Not varnish, but true grey. We used to not know for sure, but with the advent of a DNA test now for grey, there's no reason not to know. Personally, I wouldn't want grey in my appaloosa herd as they really lose the color fast. And the grey rings around the eyes of a foal make me suspicious, however, I think the varnish pattern can have grey rings around the eyes early on? I don't know about the other patterns. Maybe someone can enlighten me!

 

[Becky]

I have another question - regarding roan vs varnish. I've seen appys that are roaned, but sometimes I'm not sure if they are varnish or true roan. What's the best way to tell?

 

[ohmt]

Becky, most apps that just have varnish will end up almost white with just color around their knees and maybe a little on their face and some dark hairs thrown in here and there. True roans will be light, but they have dark legs, and no roaning on their face. Most of my apps that varnish start with varnishing on their face. Also, checking for striped hooves, mottling, sclera will clear things up there too.

Diane-your appy stallion is not a true grey if he still has those dark spots on his rump. The rings around the eyes are from varnish. Your horses are probably varnishing out and losing their color. I wouldn't think they'd lose spots from it though. I'm pretty sure the silver is not causing the spots to disappear either. The mare you pictured that is giving you all those loud foals is silver and it looks like 2 of the 3 foals you have pictured are silver. My silvers haven't lost any spots due to it either.

 

[HGFarm]

Hahahaha, no Diane, you certainly didnt kill the post, LOL (maybe it just grayed out? oh I just crack myself up sometimes.

)

ohmt, I agree with your response here on both... And no, a varnish will not wipe out the spots- they will stay while the rest of the 'background' seems to varnish out. The varnish horses though also have a little different look- not flea bitten or gray like a true gray, and yes, their legs and all the places where the varnish marks are darker... those dont fade out like on a true gray.

I have never seen a silver though, born dark with the 'white rings' around it's eyes. Usually a silver that light (and I have had a couple that were snowcaps)were born that light- they didnt roan out or fade- they stayed what they were born as. However both did get some roaning and varnish marks in time too, so almost looked white they were so light of a silver, but their varnish marks on their heads, legs etc.... were still there.

The white rings are usually tell tale (I have seen it on pintos too) of a true gray that will end up white and lose all it's color. However I have also seen foals born (not just Appy either) that had NO ring around the eye, and were indeed graying out with age! So you can't depend on that either, LOL

With a true gray, everything including the spots will disappear. You may still see where they were for a while, or they become so faded, but the skin pigment under the hair is still there, etc.....

I guess have them tested or request pics of the parents and if one is a gray, I stay away too as I want any color to remain as much as possible. My friends had a lovely black and white colt born- a wildly marked pinto... he really had unique markings but alas, his dam was a gray, and you guessed it- he lost it all. They were kinda bummed.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

Actually appaloosas with the grey gene can take a "lifetime" to loose their spots, it doesn't always happen quickly which is why they are so hard to determine for sure if it's roaning or going grey.

Here is my previous stallion, now retired and became a gelding partially because Sheila Archer was pretty sure he carried the grey gene, prior to the test being available. She said it could take years for his spots to fade, and he is 10 years old now and his spots are about the same. A little bit more white mixed in with the spots on his head/neck so they dark centers are slowly getting smaller.

I think this photo was taken when he was about 5-6 years old, notice the "halo's" around the spots, and how the center is darker, and how the spots on his face aren't crisp and dark. Those are all signs of greying. I can't remember now all the reasons why they greying process would take longer on him, but I know one was because he was homozygous for black.

 

[Becky]

Wow, Kim, I would never have guessed that the stallion you pictured is grey! With spots as vivid as his, I would never have thought grey. Thanks for posting that.

 

[ohmt]

Kim, I have never heard of any of those signs to be indication of grey. Sheila archer would know more about than me though! I've seen many apps go grey, and they were just like if a pinto were to go grey. The halo marks are common on appaloosas and pintos-I have had quite a few black pintos with them and my bay leopard has a few like that as well. They were the ones that were black black, no fading. If I remember correctly, your stallion is toyland bred. I really don't think laurie would introduce any grey to her appaloosa herd. She's pretty hard core color! Then again, if it takes a while to take effect, maybe she didn't know. I have a brother to your gelding by the way, my few spot. Same sire, different dam.

Something I'll need to read up on I guess! Were you told why some appys go grey and others with the gene don't?

 

[HGFarm]

I also agree that halo or peacock spots are more common on the big horses and POA's and are certainly not a sign of graying. He does not look faded to me at all. I also agree that Toyland is pretty 'in the know' about color and not breeding grays with the colored ones. What color were his sire and dam? If either did not gray out, he is certainly not a gray!

I agree that some horses gray within a few short months, and some take several years, but you can see it distinctly happening, though sometimes it is slower- there is still white hairs coming in ALL OVER from nose to feet and the color slowly fades.

 

[HGFarm]

LOL, Diane, you make me laugh.

I agree, with dilutes it is hard enough to get contrasting color that will stand out and dont need the roaning in there to lighten it all, though any spots that are there will stay. And I agree that unless you have loud spots or something to go with it, the varnish gene can really wash out some Minis. I have to say, I dont remember our big horses that were varnish roans totally washing out like the Minis do either- they still kept quite a bit of color on their entire bodies. (In fact we had one mare whose nickname was Mildy. It was short for mildew because that is what her roan body looked like, LOL) One of these days I need to get some more pics scanned of some other color patterns.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'm sure glad to see this thread brought back to life!

With all the discussion about the varnish versus true roan gene, I have a question. The stallion I had for several years that threw only solids that varnished out later, exept for the one colt that was born colored. One of his daughters that I've kept started getting roany as a weanling. She roaned out heavily all over EXCEPT her points! Her head and lower legs are black with NO white hairs. Where'd that come from? She looks just like a true roan, but it has to be varnish because she had a colt this spring by my non appy stallion and he has all the characteristics. No white hairs yet, but I expect he'll varnish or snowflake, since his dam has some snowflakes too.

 

[ohmt]

Ridgerunner-could be varnish AND roan working together? Do you have a picture of the mare that you could post?

 

[Sandee]

I have posted these pictures a couple of times so hope I'm not going overboard here by posting them again. However, I'm finding this discussion very interesting and even finally looked up the Appaloosa site. I wasn't going to breed but now am considering breeding my mare and stallion as I enjoy watching them learn as I work with them. Of course, a good looking - smart horse (that's hoping for the mare's genes there) would be the best outcome.

Stallion didn't look Appy in first 2 years and even now only has mottling in only a few places but he seems to throw Appy. He does seem to have a few TINY white spots that weren't there before each year when we clip in spring.

Paired with a (phenotype-roan)mare with flaxen mane and tail; they had this guy:

Who around 3 turned into this guy:

Paired with a black mare (or a black bay) they had this guy who looked like the stallion at birth:

But by 2 or 3 developed black spots and they have become more predominant.

My stallion seems to be one of those that carry the genes App gene but does not display it. Hope they finally get a test for all these crazy colors.

 

[Becky]

Sandee, there's no doubt in my mind that your stallion carries appaloosa genes (in addition to his obvious tobiano). From the picture you posted of him, it appears to me that he has mottling around his muzzle and eyes. The coloring on his offspring are definitely appaloosa!

 

[Ridgerunner]

OHMT, I don't think it could be true roan, as neither parent was. It's just odd to me that she never roaned on her points like all my other varnish roans have. I seem to be picture posting challenged, but you can see her on my website. She's on the Sales page, Ridgerunners Hope Springs Eternal.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

The halo marks are common on appaloosas and pintos-I have had quite a few black pintos with them and my bay leopard has a few like that as well. They were the ones that were black black, no fading. If I remember correctly, your stallion is toyland bred. I really don't think laurie would introduce any grey to her appaloosa herd.

His are not true halo spots, they look similar to them, but the dark center of the spot gets a little smaller each year, and the spots on his face the white increases in them a little bit each year. Sheila said his rump spots might not ever change. You can see from his face head and neck the spots look faded, then they are strong black in the back, that is a clue because it is the progression of greying that starts at the head. Sheila thought is was coming thru his dam Toyland Lollapaloosa, not his sire. Grey can hide on the appaloosas, that's why I'm happy they now have a test available!