Appy questions

[ohmt]

Thanks for all of the help Laurie, I appreciate it and I'm sure there are many others who have read this that do as well.

Melinda, love what Mars Rosebud has been giving you. Did I ever tell you she gave us a tiny solid chestnut filly before we sold her? She was at a zoo near us (we sent two mares there to help the zookeepers get acquainted with equine and foaling-they weren't out in the open) And actually had the filly while a news station was filming. They got it all recorded and put it on the news that night. Also, the black varnish appy I posted a pic of on here is mars rosebud's brother and the two fillies are her sister's daughters.

 

[Nancy]

LOL, I seriously thought about buying this mare a couple of years ago- small world.

Having been raising Appies of various sizes since 1973, I will tell you it is a complete crap shoot. NOTHING is guaranteed and no, breeding like pattern to like pattern means absolutely nothing, LOL

The ONLY way you are guaranteed color is a TRUE fewspot (not a roaned out or grayed out horse), a fewcap or a snowcap. And a horse only having characteristics at birth is considered 'colored' as those characteristics in particular only apply Appaloosas. So you may get a range of color from those, or very little.

A leopard is a leopard- what you see is what you get. There are no fake or false leopards. There CAN be false snowcaps- to be homozygous, just as in pintos, BOTH parents must be Appaloosa. Any two Appies can produce a snowcap, but leopard breeding has to be involved when it's a true fewspot.

I have pics at home I can post of the difference of all of them if anyone is interested.

Congrats on your new horses and welcome to the world of mystery and NEVER knowing what you're gonna get! LOL

 

[Nancy]

LOL, I seriously thought about buying this mare a couple of years ago- small world.

Having been raising Appies of various sizes since 1973, I will tell you it is a complete crap shoot. NOTHING is guaranteed and no, breeding like pattern to like pattern means absolutely nothing, LOL

The ONLY way you are guaranteed color is a TRUE fewspot (not a roaned out or grayed out horse), a fewcap or a snowcap. And a horse only having characteristics at birth is considered 'colored' as those characteristics in particular only apply Appaloosas. So you may get a range of color from those, or very little.

A leopard is a leopard- what you see is what you get. There are no fake or false leopards. There CAN be false snowcaps- to be homozygous, just as in pintos, BOTH parents must be Appaloosa. Any two Appies can produce a snowcap, but leopard breeding has to be involved when it's a true fewspot.

I have pics at home I can post of the difference of all of them if anyone is interested.

Congrats on your new horses and welcome to the world of mystery and NEVER knowing what you're gonna get! LOL

HG, I almost bought her too she was at a farm in southern Indiana. LOL At that time she was only AMHR and I wanted double registered mares. She is a beauty , probably should have bought her.

 

[Becky]

I have never seen so many roan Appaloosas in my life as I have with the Miniatures!!! LOL The white spots over the rear could be an 'attempted' blanket that didnt make it, hahahaha, but in a registry description of this type of pattern, it is just listed as spots over the rear, or something similar to that- it really isnt a 'blanket'.
Again, it seems in the Minis, it is SO hard to get a vivid pattern that stays and doesnt roan out with time. It seems hard to get a blanket and spots that will STAY that way, or a nice hip pattern, etc.. that stays that way. And I just dont know why all the Mini snowcaps roan out to just about lose where the blanket started and where it ended...... I have had snowcaps in the full sized and also in the POA's that didnt roan out at all and their pattern was very vivid and distinct and stayed that way even at several years old.

Same here on the varnish roan. The majority of miniature appaloosas I see, carry this and they lose so much of their color as they mature. I always said if I were going to get miniature appys, I didn't want varnish! Hence the reason I love this stallion. Indian Dreams Spectacular Royalty. No varnish! Not to mention his ultra refined body type with his tiny head. Seems so hard to get in mini appys!

I assumed the snowflake pattern was separate from varnish, but I sure don't know. It appears, though, that the snowflakes don't lose their color *if* they don't carry varnish? The mare, Mercedes, is still quite black at 14 years of age. She has not gotten lighter over the past few years. She's stunning!

I showed the 2009 AMHA World Champion Multi Color Mare, Moriahs IB Fancy, for my client Suzanne Sooter. Suzanne was looking for a black, blanketed mare a few years ago and I found Fancy for her as a yearling. However, she carries varnish and has continued to get lighter. She is a gorgeous mare, though, with a beautiful head and refined body. I get the pleasure of showing her again in 2011.

Here is a picture of Fancy.

Melba, you are welcome! I'm so glad I started it too! Let's keep it going!!

 

[wcr]

This is a very informative thread as I know nothing about appy coloring. Becky I just have one question.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND? It can take a lifetime to try to figure out pinto patterns and now you want to figure out appy? You must have a lot of time on your hands (she says tongue in cheek)

 

[Charlotte]

I'm not an appy breeder, but I'm REALLY enjoying reading this thread.

I know the purists don't like the pinto patterns and appy patterns crossed, but there have been some gorgeous ones IMO...Orion Light has always been my all time favorite miniature horse. (of course he would have been beautiful if he had been solid purple!) The first AMHA Nationals we exhibited at, in Columbus, Ohio, there was a pintaloosa filly that placed real high in her class. She was gorgeous. I asked the price...$15,000. I drooled a lot.

One of these days I may have to get me an app!

Charlotte

p.s. Isn't 'Catch' a pintaloosa? I can't remember, he has stockings, right? Another gorgeous one!

 

[Becky]

LOL, Kathi, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

Variety is the spice of life, right?

Seriously, I will always have my pinto breeding program, but there is something about a colorful appy that intrigues me. So, a token one or two here will be fun.

 

[palsminihorses]

I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....

Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.

OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.

I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.

There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.

A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.

A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)

A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.

Laurie,

No one has ever explained the appaloosa patterns better than you!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to post these pictures! I didn't really understand the term 'fewcap.' I never heard of it when I was raising big appys...........beginning back in the 70's. Yep, I'm old!! LOL

I, too, would have never dreamed of mixing appys and pintos until I got into the miniatures! This has always been 'taboo' in the big appys. Castle Rock and Maple Hollow, I love your pintaloosas!! I'm hoping to get one highly colored like yours one day. This year I either got all pinto or all appy...........no combination of the two. I bred my Magic Man daughter to my snowcap appy stallion for 2011, so I'm anxious to see what I get!!

Pam

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Thanks for all of the help Laurie, I appreciate it and I'm sure there are many others who have read this that do as well.

Melinda, love what Mars Rosebud has been giving you. Did I ever tell you she gave us a tiny solid chestnut filly before we sold her? She was at a zoo near us (we sent two mares there to help the zookeepers get acquainted with equine and foaling-they weren't out in the open) And actually had the filly while a news station was filming. They got it all recorded and put it on the news that night. Also, the black varnish appy I posted a pic of on here is mars rosebud's brother and the two fillies are her sister's daughters.

Thanks, she has definitely been making me proud to own her!!!! I didnt know that but it is neat that she had it on the news LOL! This is neat, I love seeing relatives of my horses!!!! I love all of your appies!

Laurie,

No one has ever explained the appaloosa patterns better than you!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to post these pictures! I didn't really understand the term 'fewcap.' I never heard of it when I was raising big appys...........beginning back in the 70's. Yep, I'm old!! LOL

I, too, would have never dreamed of mixing appys and pintos until I got into the miniatures! This has always been 'taboo' in the big appys. Castle Rock and Maple Hollow, I love your pintaloosas!! I'm hoping to get one highly colored like yours one day. This year I either got all pinto or all appy...........no combination of the two. I bred my Magic Man daughter to my snowcap appy stallion for 2011, so I'm anxious to see what I get!!

Pam

Thanks!!!!!!

I bred Mars back to Magic Trick for a hopeful repeat of Magic and have lots of others bred for appy or pintaloosa foals so with any luck I will have them running every direction LOL!!!!

I agree though this is the best explaination of the appaloosa patterns, I am learning a ton!

 

[HGFarm]

Ok, I must admit I am one from the 'old school' and big horse breeding where Appies and pintos just dont mix, but hey, what ever floats one's boat, eh?

Thank you, I am glad you are enjoying the examples.

Becky, I think that mare Fancy is just to awful for your client to own, so send her here! I'll 'hide' her at my place, hahahaha She is lovely.

wcr, you are too funny. I gave up back in the 70's (nope, I am not a spring chicken either - probably more an old stewing hen by now, haha) trying to figure out Appy color and what you will get by breeding what to what. No rules seem to apply, but it sure is fun!!

** And P.S. that was why I had passed on this mare also- she was R only and by the time I noticed she was A also, she had been snagged. Ah well.

 

[Lost Spoke Ranch]

I too am one of those that has been loving the appaloosa coat pattern since 1971 when me and my family purchased my first POA stallion. Since then my husband and I have been actively experimenting with appaloosa color in the miniature horse since 1993. Although I find discussion about appaloosa genetics interesting, to me, over the years most of them only make my head hurt. The truth is no one has the complete and total picture.

Our primary goal over the years has been to produce miniatures with conformation and athletic ability good enough to successfully compete at the top AMHA/AMHR levels of showing. We also wanted to produce more than color class winners and are achieving our goals in halter and driving with our appaloosa bred horses year after year.

Weve bred appaloosa color to appaloosa color, appaloosa color to solids, and pinto color combinations. In my experience the better color and more importantly the better conformation and color have come from the crosses that include solids and/or pinto color. Its been nice to experience the worst foal color you may get is the one that may not be your first favorite color.

Breeding spotted horses is incredibly exciting and I say to each their own...breed what you like and what works for you to achieve the goals you want.

Happy spot breeding everybody!

Dawn

 

[HGFarm]

LOL Dawn I hear ya- that is my goal is well.... conformation always comes first, color is just an added plus (but really nice when you get it!!)

Oh someone had asked about Catch- yes he is pintoloosa. And one of the only ones I have ever liked. (I got to pet him the other day- what an incredibly handsome guy) I guess because he mostly looks Appy, with some socks- that is not bad, LOL

 

[Becky]

Laurie, I don't think you'd be able to pry Fancy out of her owners' hands.

Dawn, I think that should be every breeders goal no matter the color or patterns!

 

[Manyspots]

This has been a really fun group of posts to read. The pictures have been very good examples and Becky thank you for starting this! These miniatures are so much fun, something for everyone, no matter their colors or patterns. I used to think also, appy to appy only, now I have lighened up a bit. Also there was a time I didn't like the Falabellas, but guess what? I have a stallion that has some Falabella breeding now too! Just a world of fun for all of us, and how great for all to share! Any more pictures for examples? Keep the spots comming!

 

[Tommy]

I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....

Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.

OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.

I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.

There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.

A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.

A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)

A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I think the terms near leopard and fewcap are a bit outdated, especially if you follow the newest genetic "discoveries" on The Appaloosa Horse Project, but they do kind of work for expressing what the different patterns look like. Sometimes a horse can look like a "near leopard" but still carry the PATN (pattern) gene for leopard.

For example, this guy is out of a fewspot mare and sired by a leopard stallion, I call him a leopard. He should have the genetics to produce a leopard, his first foals are due next year, so I guess I will see what the genetic dice roll!

Weanling photo:

3 year old photo:

 

[Tommy]

It has been more than a year/maybe two or more since I have participated in some these color discussions/arguments that have gone on for years now, but from hearing of this topic I could not help myself; When terms are used like "I have heard..but don't want to go into specifics", that becomes a reaction out of heresay not necessarily out of reality or from verification.

More to follow....

Tommy

I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....

Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.

OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.

I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.

There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.

A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.

A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)

A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.

 

[Tommy]

Yes, Laurie, I guess "that is not bad, LOL".

Tommy

LOL Dawn I hear ya- that is my goal is well.... conformation always comes first, color is just an added plus (but really nice when you get it!!)

Oh someone had asked about Catch- yes he is pintoloosa. And one of the only ones I have ever liked. (I got to pet him the other day- what an incredibly handsome guy) I guess because he mostly looks Appy, with some socks- that is not bad, LOL

 

[Becky]

Can someone explain the difference between LP and PATN and what each does? That really confuses me!

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

LP is the appaloosa gene, it is the "switch" that turns on the appaloosa pattern so it is expressed. A horse can inherit the pattern genes (PATN), but without the LP gene you won't visually see appaloosa pattern.

PATN are the pattern genes, when inherited along with the LP gene, you visually see a leopard, blanket, snowflake, etc.

Does that help?