Appy questions

[Becky]

Not being an appaloosa breeder, I do try to keep up with some of the current research.

However, my biggest question is, to get color, is it best to breed like pattern to like pattern? I know fewspots and snowcaps are supposed to be homozygous for those patterns, but getting color from other patterns, what works best?

 

[REO]

Not fair Becky! Don'tcha know you gotta post pics and share!

That's a good question! I've always kinda wanted to know that too. I have 2 pintaloosa mares.

 

[ohmt]

That is a wonderful question....one that most appy breeders would like to know

in my experience, it really depends on the horse. My few spot throws mostly blankets, but I breed him to mares with zero appaloosa breeding. He has given me a few leopards too-all out of mares with zero appy breeding. The fist time I bred him to an appy mare, the foal was solid bay (eventually varnished). Research shows that red based appaloosas seem to usually be 'louder'.

My varnish appy mare has given me two varnishes by two different few spots, and a fewcap. My leopard stallion has given me two blanketed appaloosas out of solid red mares.

Colts are also usually 'louder' than fillies which is why leopard mares are hard to find.

To get a leopard pattern out of/by a non leopard appy, that horse needs to have a leopard within 3 generations of his/her pedigree (I believe that's how it goes).

You should go take a look at the dams of ginny long's appy boys from alliance. Both exhibit minimal appy characteristics and were bred to solid, non appy stallions.

Breeding for appy patterns is a total crap shoot. It's a lot of fun though!

 

[Becky]

Hey, Robin, I just got them in last night and haven't taken any new pictures.

I've already sold one mare and she's not here. But, here is a picure of the other mare taken a few years ago. Lil Promises Black Mercedes.

While I don't have a picture of the stallion yet, Indian Dreams Spectacular Royalty, he looks very much like Brewers Classic Supreme, pictured here. A classic example of the high quality appaloosas the Brewers used to breed.

Both of my horses are snowflake pattern. Not sure if there is anything else going on.

 

[palsminihorses]

That is a wonderful question....one that most appy breeders would like to know

in my experience, it really depends on the horse. My few spot throws mostly blankets, but I breed him to mares with zero appaloosa breeding. He has given me a few leopards too-all out of mares with zero appy breeding. The fist time I bred him to an appy mare, the foal was solid bay (eventually varnished). Research shows that red based appaloosas seem to usually be 'louder'.

I raised big appaloosas for years before getting into miniature appys. I was always told that in order to produce a true leopard, that both parents had to have appy in their pedigree.

With my big appys I found that I got more color from my blanketed stallion when I bred him to solid or minimal 'appy-bred' mares. I now have a snowcap mini stallion, and I bred him to both appy and solid (no appy) mares for 2011. This is the first year to use him, so it will be fun to see what colors (or lack of) that we get! LOL

Welcome to the world of appys, Becky! And I'm with REO, you need to share pictures!! And in case you don't know about it, there is great information from The Appaloosa Project.

Pam

Oops! I must have been typing while Becky was putting up pictures! Beautiful mare!!

Will look forward to seeing pictures of the stallion too!

 

[ohmt]

Oh oh I LOVE the mare!!

Pals-it is very rare to get a true leopard, I would love a whole herd. My few spot has given me one out of a solid silver black mare. She is mickey mouse bred top and roan ranger bred bottom, no appy. It was a beautiful colt, spots head to toe with zero solid color (other than the spots). Looked just like his grandsire, toyland casino chips. Premie and we lost him, one of the only times I've ever seen my grandmother cry. The other two leopards were born with color on their heads and legs so technically not true leopards.

P.s.-I've got a couple mares in foal to our tiny palomino stallion (son of the pretty buckskin mare of yours). I can't wait! Dream is such a spitfire. A whole lot of personality in that teensy little body

 

[HGFarm]

LOL, I seriously thought about buying this mare a couple of years ago- small world.

Having been raising Appies of various sizes since 1973, I will tell you it is a complete crap shoot. NOTHING is guaranteed and no, breeding like pattern to like pattern means absolutely nothing, LOL

The ONLY way you are guaranteed color is a TRUE fewspot (not a roaned out or grayed out horse), a fewcap or a snowcap. And a horse only having characteristics at birth is considered 'colored' as those characteristics in particular only apply Appaloosas. So you may get a range of color from those, or very little.

A leopard is a leopard- what you see is what you get. There are no fake or false leopards. There CAN be false snowcaps- to be homozygous, just as in pintos, BOTH parents must be Appaloosa. Any two Appies can produce a snowcap, but leopard breeding has to be involved when it's a true fewspot.

I have pics at home I can post of the difference of all of them if anyone is interested.

Congrats on your new horses and welcome to the world of mystery and NEVER knowing what you're gonna get! LOL

 

[ohmt]

HG-I am still learning all the appy stuff, I have read that a 'true' leopard is one that is born leopard with zero solid color (other than spots) on the face and legs. Is this true? Sometimes I read things that are outdated. You should definitely post all of the pictures for reference for others. I have my own stash, but using my phone at the moment so getting pics on here is tricky.

Fewspots definitely give the best color (by that I mean 'loud' patterns). I lucked out and found a fewspot who is sired by a loud leopard and out of a loud leopard. He has 7 generations of registered black based leopard appies top and bottom. He's my appy genetic goldmine

I used to have a snowcap and all of his foals were born solid and then varnished out later. No app charactertics of any kind until about a year old. He gave me appy, but not loud appy.

 

[cretahillsgal]

Beautiful mare! I'm not usually an appy fan, but this one is pretty.

 

[HGFarm]

Ok, when I get home this evening I will post some pics and also a link to a good article, written by the 'gurus' of Appaloosa color patterns who have been doing hands on studies for DECADES.

It seems that the snowcap Minis for some reason, have an extremely strong roaning gene- not like with the POA's or full sized ones who usually keep their nice distinct blanket pattern.

Must get back to work, will post more later!

 

[Reble]

My friend breeds appy's and found two appy's no spots.

But with her solid black Mares lot of spots.

 

[REO]

Nice mare!

Now you've got me wondering what pattern/s my black pinaloosa mare has

She's bred to Nort and knowing my luck, I'll get a solid black foal!

 

[palsminihorses]

Oh oh I LOVE the mare!!

Pals-it is very rare to get a true leopard, I would love a whole herd. My few spot has given me one out of a solid silver black mare. She is mickey mouse bred top and roan ranger bred bottom, no appy. It was a beautiful colt, spots head to toe with zero solid color (other than the spots). Looked just like his grandsire, toyland casino chips. Premie and we lost him, one of the only times I've ever seen my grandmother cry. The other two leopards were born with color on their heads and legs so technically not true leopards.

P.s.-I've got a couple mares in foal to our tiny palomino stallion (son of the pretty buckskin mare of yours). I can't wait! Dream is such a spitfire. A whole lot of personality in that teensy little body

You must have been so surprised to see that little leopard baby out of the solid mare! So sorry to hear that you lost him.

I'll be watching your website for the upcoming Dream foals! How exciting! Did I show you a picture of his 2010 half-brother? He's an appy with a full blanket and spots!! Awsome little guy! I need to update his picture on our website.

Pam

 

[Becky]

Thanks for all the info.

I really appreciate it.

What is known about the snowflake pattern? I do know that those are generally born dark and spot more with age. But, are there any known facts about it? Are other patterns involved?

Here is a picture of the hips of my new stallion. He is developing a few more spots on his sides and back now. I'm assuming he is snowflake only?

 

[Ashley]

Ok, when I get home this evening I will post some pics and also a link to a good article, written by the 'gurus' of Appaloosa color patterns who have been doing hands on studies for DECADES.

It seems that the snowcap Minis for some reason, have an extremely strong roaning gene- not like with the POA's or full sized ones who usually keep their nice distinct blanket pattern.

Must get back to work, will post more later!

What is the breeding on your mare???? I had a mare that was like her, sold her when she was 18. She had several foals. One looked like her, the rest were all solid. I bred her 3 years to my appy stallion. Two black foals, not a white hair on them. The 3 I dont know as she sold bred.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I admit to knowing nearly nothing about appys so forgive my ignorance but is there not a breed of horse in Europe some where that is marked like a leopard appy ALL the time. Can't recall the name and perhaps it too has a variety of color/pattern and I've only seen the one type.

Hmmm, never mind I Googled horse breeds and it is called a Knabstrup and apparently does come in a wide variety of patterns.

This thread has been fascinating reading.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I think that the snowflake pattern doesn't carry any other patterns, so if you breed snowflake to snowflake, you can only get snowflack or appaloosa roan, commonly called varnish roan (starts solid colored). I think on the spectrum of appy color, snowflake is "one up" on varnish roan, but I can't remember for sure. You can have a varnish roan that is homozygous for the appaloosa gene, it just means they didn't get a pattern gene.

Appaloosa breeding is so tricky because the foal needs to inherit two genes to express the appaloosa color. One the appaloosa gene that "switches on" the color for the pattern gene, and two the pattern gene (snowflake, blanket, leopard).

One of the reasons Miniature Horse appaloosas do not breed as "true" as the full size apps is that hardly anyone breeds appaloosa to appaloosa in the Mini realm, a lot breed to solids. The more appy to appy breeding in the background (pedigree), the more likely the offspring is to have those pattern genes! Second reason is Miniatures can (not all have it) carry a suppression gene that minimizes the expression of the appaloosa pattern. For example, I owned an almost solid black mare, she had no appy markings unless you clipped her, then you could see spots mixed in her coat. She had no mottling, and no roaning, no striped hooves. But bred to a leopard appaloosa she produced a true fewspot filly! Couldn't tell visually that she was an appaloosa, but she proved it by what she produced. This is why I'm so eager for the test for the appaloosa gene! She was appy bred, just had that suppression gene going on, so you couldn't visually see she was appaloosa.

I think that's why I stick with the appaloosas, even as they discover more of the genetics, it's still complicated, and you never know for sure what you will get! Breeding for pinto is too easy, LOL!

 

[Becky]

Thanks for the info, Kim. I had assumed varnish roan is separate from snowflake? One thing I like about these two horses is that neither appear to be varnish. Since varnish tends to increase white and decrease color over time, I'm most fond of appys that don't have any. However, maybe varnish helps to turn on the color??

So, the appaloosa gene and the pattern gene(s) are two separate genes and you need to have both to get color???

Yes, I'm quite anxious to hear when appaloosa gene tests are finally available!

Ashley, Mercedes is sired by Kobecks Chief Black Cloud, a black appaloosa and out of Double AA Red Lady who I think is solid red.

Keep the info coming! I'm really finding all of this fascinating!

 

[palsminihorses]

The IMAPC wesite has a link to some of The Appaloosa Project findings. Here's a link to it:

http://weloveminispots.com/appyProject.shtml

Pam

 

[palsminihorses]

Nice mare!

Now you've got me wondering what pattern/s my black pinaloosa mare has

She's bred to Nort and knowing my luck, I'll get a solid black foal!

You can get pinto and/or appy patterns from a pintaloosa!! I bred our pintaloosa stallion to both appy and solid mares. Surprisingly, I got pinto foals from my appy mares and got a blanketed foal from one of the solid mares!! Go figure! Like HG said, breeding for appys is a crap shoot......but oh so much fun!!

Pam