WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES

[nightflight]

If $500 or less is what it costs you to raise a foal in your area, then I can't argue with that. What I can say is that the more foals you raise, the less it costs per foal - until you run into trouble.

With the first foal you have to think about things like a safe foaling stall, camera system, buying all the emergency supplies you could possibly need, purchasing the books/videos/ etc you need to have to educate yourself... that first foal is an expensive one.

Where the $500 or less per foal is going to catch you is on those foals that do not go by the book. You have to decide that you are going to spend no more than X on a foal - even if it is a life and death situation, or spend the money and end up with a $7,000 weanling. Fun Fun Fun.

Edit: Our lovely vet gives us a farm rate because she is out so often, so more can mean less, but even so $500 per foal would be... amazing. Wish we could manage that here. One of the things we consider is that we wouldn't have invested so much in our horses unless we were breeding. Geldings could have done it for us. We also do the junior diets, have fescue free hay shipped in, etc. etc. It costs just to raise a foal, and it costs more to do it well.

Edit2: If you love horses breeding is a hard business to be in. If you take the time to call some of the real "elite" breeders of the Miniature Horse World (not just the "elite" forum people), they might tell you that two times a year or so something leaves them so heartbroken that they want to quit.

Edit 3: On getting started with the first foal... DNA testing and registration alone would blow a big part of that budget out of the water. Even little things that people don't usually think about. The little bitty halter. The blanket for the cold weather foal. Bedding that the foal can't inhale. Basic immunity testing. Pain meds for the maiden mare if needed. A bucket the baby can reach. Does board double if you are boarding?Cha-ching$$$$

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You really do not have any idea at all about this do you???

 

[Katiean]

I would say to what AKC does with the limited registration did not help the dog population. People still breed with so little regard as to what they breed they call a mutt (cross breed) a designer dog just so they can sell it for a lot of money. These dogs have no papers. A lot of them do not get homes. There is a dog site I go to that has Labradoodles for $600. This is a big incentive for puppy mills to keep up the breeding. We got a pure bred Japanese Chin with out papers (they didn't have them) from a Breeder in CO. We paid $500 for her and we look at her as a rescue because she spent her whole life in a kennel only having puppies. When she only had 1 she was gotten rid of. I just don't know why people see these poor animals as baby machines. Miniature horses included. I did not breed for 08 and still might not for 09 but then I only have 2 mares. I think it would help the horse population if BIG BREEDERS did not breed for 1 season. Or at least if they did breed they only bred for 3 to 4 foals so they had their show colts for the next season.

 

[JourneysEnd]

I know the no breed AKC didn't stop over population.

My question was, did it help keep demand and price for the breeds that ARE registered?

Back yard breeders will always be there.

I was just trying to think of things we could do to support the people who do it right so they can at least get a decent price for their horses.

The breeders that really work to improve the breed have to complete with $500 mares sold at flea markets.

 

[maestoso]

Well unlike many people south of us, we do not pay between 8-12 dollars for a bale of hay, so we are lucky for that. And For those that invest in horses BECAUSE of breeding than I guess it's a whole different story. I like horses, I like showing, and I would have a mini to show regardless of weather I breed or not. And those that breed around me, are in the same boat. They breed as a hobby because they like babies and the experience, and usually the money they make covers to cost of other horse related expenses such as hay, etc.

Rabbitfizz, if your comment was made to me, your welcome to think what you want. In fact, if you need a brick right about now I think I have a few.....

I'll go get my helmet.

 

[chandab]

And IF you have all of those, they can reproduce several times, you wouldn't calculate their purchase price into every single foal because you only purchased them once.

Actually, you do... Its called amortization (sp?).

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I do not understand your comment but, Yes, what I said was directed at you, Matt.

So you and your friends are all in this for the money, eh???

That is very clever of you all, I have been breeding for forty years and I have yet to have one year where I make any sort of clear profit whatsoever.

 

[Danielle_E.]

How many horses from reputable breeders are going to wind up at slaughter, as opposed to those strictly pet horses or backyard bred horses or race track castoffs or old, used up ranch horses?

If ALL reputable breeders stopped breeding for a year, how many people would wind up purchasing from BAD breeders?

The same questions could be asked about dogs and shelters, actually.

I am quoting the above only because it is what many say over and over again. Personally ALL breeders have to stop breeding for awhile but it seems it's the "not me" syndrome. The problem is too many horses or too many dogs, or too many cats period. Until EVERYONE can stop focussing on splitting "groups" - "quality" vs "pet" (Lord, I HATE those terms) and SEE

that a horse is a horse, a cat is a cat, a dog is a dog, etc. things will never improve as far as numbers period. The statements as well that I have heard in the past and still do that a "quality" or an animal from a "reputable" breeder won't end up at slaughter is ..... Tell that to the many race horses that end up at slaughter, tell that to the recent group of arabians rescued - one of which was the last living descendant in this continent, I could go on and on. It's time that EVERYONE take their head out of the sand and realize that WE are adding to the problem. Not just the ones breeding "pets" but EVERY breeder, period. Until everyone can admit it, the problem will continue and probably get worse. JMHO

 

[maestoso]

well said

 

[Katiean]

If you have a mare, you have to feed her. Right? So, if you breed her (your own stud) you are not incurring any additional expenses with her because you still must give vaccines, worm and farrier work. You are not going to have any expense until the foal is born. Then if you can unload that foal as young as possible, for say, $500 anything you get from that foal is profit. So now multiply that by, oh, 100. This is what is so attractive to the mill breeders. Most of this kind of breeder will have land and fields and pastures so they do not have to feed (remember KS?) They do not have foal cams,have the vet out (it is cheaper to let it die and replace it) or anything else that costs money. This is their living. If these breeders were not allowed to do this it would help the horse world (big and mini), dog world and any other type of breeder there is. The problem with that is that our government can not put that type of restrictions on it's people. We are free to breed what ever we want when we want. unless we abuse, cause harm or don't feed them. if they are locked in stalls or kennels for dogs that is ok as long as they are reasonably clean. I personally do not approve of the way some people treat the animals for breeding but, do I want the government to have more control? NO!! So as breeders we can complain until someone puts laws in place so no one can breed as they wish. Or, we can try to educate people as to how the miniature horse should be cared for so it is reasonably comfortable in a pet or home setting.

 

[MiniaturePrincess429]

i don't post much on here, because i like just looking at what people write, but Matt, Seriously, you need to chillax. You don't know everything. And I'd like to know where you are from because it must be some cool place if the cost of breeding is only 500 per foal. The vet bills alone for the mare will be more than 500, and that's if everything goes perfect. It doesn't matter matter if you own the mare and the sire. there are so many other ways that cost occur. It's just not feasible.

ETA: And there's no need to be immature and think that rabbitfizz is going to throw bricks at you. I can guarentee that i'm younger than you, and my peers do not act that way

 

[Danielle_E.]

I agree Katiean BUT how many puppy mill type breeders are their out there versus normal breeders (reputable). How many horses are born from pupply mill type breeders vs "reputable" breeders? You know what, it doesn't matter, what matters is EVERYONE who breeds is adding to the numbers!!!! You and I and others that are responsible breeders can try and exclude ourselves from the problem but the fact is we breed, we add to the numbers. We know that the puppy mill type breeders won't stop but WE as "responsible and reputable breeders" can, we could probably make a difference but we won't will we because it seems everyone thinks "they" are the problem "not us" so nothing will ever get done, numbers will continue to go up and up, more horses slaughtered, more horses abandoned, more horses starving, etc. etc.

 

[Katiean]

And I'd like to know where you are from because it must be some cool place if the cost of breeding is only 500 per foal. The vet bills alone for the mare will be more than 500,

 

 


The MILL breeder doesn't even spend that on a foal. They breed and let nature take it's course. If the mare dies they replace her.

 


And have we all forgotten KS and what it took to get those MILL horses out of there?

 

[maestoso]

Miniature Princess, the brick comment is in regards to something you were not apart of, and I don't mean that in a mean way, its just something that happened on another forum , that some people here know about and some don't. I am aware that most people don't throw bricks to solve their problems, which is why it is so ironic that this was the discussion on the other thread, so please, don't comment on that until you have seen that thread.

And as far as costs of breeding, well I have never heard about breeding costs in any area but here, I don't know anyone who has spent more than a few hundred dollars for vet visits, this includes the ultrasound, 3 rhino shots, and visit when the foal is born. This is of course if everything goes routine, which most of the time, it does. And again I personally do not consider routine care(feed, vet, dentist, etc) for the parents part of breeding costs, because you have those regardless. And I think I DO live in a GREAT place

Im not into researching breeding costs across the country. But I think some people are afraid or feel ashamed to say that they are in it for some money(regardless of where the money goes, usually back to the horses) and i don't think it is a shameful thing. If you love what you do and are responsible about it why not not make something back, it doesnt have to be your first priority, I think most people would say that when selling a good home is the first concern. But hat doesn't mean you can't get a little something back for your hard work.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You know what I am no longer even sure what the pint of this thread is??

So...we stop breeding because we are responsible breeders and everyone knows just how much the Miniature Horse Industry is adding to the Horse slaughter problem??

Is that it??

Or is it we stop breeding because we are part of the problem- so what about the pony mills that will keep on churning out the problems??

And of course, according to Matt's post of a little while ago, there is not actually a problem with excess Minis anyway.

Matt, I would like to live in your world for just a little while, it must be very restful- there do not appear to be any sort of problems, no over stocking, no high Vets bills, no over heads, no worry.

I envy you.

 

[maestoso]

I wouldnt say it is perfect. But I think for the most part people around hear are doing OK and spending more time enjoying their horses than worrying about all the problems in the horse industry. The pros outweigh the cons(in every aspect) is all Im saying, and I hope that other people can say the same. Horses are hard work, why would you bother if the were more problems than pleasures.

 

[nightflight]

Horses are hard work, why would you bother if the were more problems than pleasures.

Masochistic tendencies?

Wait. Was that rhetorical?

 

[nootka]

I've had horses for 13 years and minis for 8 years, which is a drop in the bucket compared to some of us here. I started out having a couple as pets (1), then got into driving (2), then got into showing and serious learning about type and conformation (3), then built up the caliber of my show horses (4), and THEN made changes to create a herd I feel optimistic about breeding (5). I would not have been able to really have a chance at the quality I want in foals and the future generation if I had started breeding back when I first got into minis.

This should be a model for just about anyone wanting to breed anything for any reason, even merely money. There's a LOT more to it than that, but I TRULY ADMIRE JILL for how she's gone about setting in place a plan and sticking to it.

The instant breeder is the bane of our existence, and that is not saying that all are "bad" or even any are "good".

What it says is that miniatures, by their nature and size, are suited to instigate disaster in that manner. As I mentioned on the other thread, breeding creates its own problem in that it makes more horses to care for and exponentially increases the complications. What was simply a cute little herd of mares and a stallion has now become a management issue when you have to separate the sons from the mothers, from the father from the sisters and so on. Consequently, the entire herd then suffers from something or another be it too little food, too little attention, too much socialization (as in stallions fighting b/c they are not separated, mares getting bred too young, etc.) Not all "newbies" are prepared to do this in its entirety, though I will say most of us are willing to learn. They become overwhelmed and then dump the horses.

I wish I'd started out with half the clue that Jill had and has enforced in her own program through the years. I had had horses for 7 years prior to getting Miniatures, and had been studying and working around them for most of my life before that. I still should not have bred a mare for several years before I actually did. I had some rotten counseling in that department, as in someone saying "play the numbers, breed them all and breed them often, sell low just sell lots of 'em." Advisement is the difference. I have no problem with someone buying a herd of bred mares and then proceeding to breed, themselves, as long as they've considered all the consequences and that includes the fact that some of the horses may simply not sell for years, and others will possibly be unsale-able (as in a dwarf, etc.), still others will not even happen and may be tragic (dystocia resulting in loss of mare and foal), and that percentage-wise, you have a low chance of breeding the next World Champ (if that's your goal), but you can increase those odds with education.

I have no foals coming for 2008, though I tried for one. I will be sending a mare out for a 2009 foal. I have the room to keep all of them in case none of them sell. My horses' future homes are my first concern. I am not always able to take them back, but I have, and I will in most cases take them back if something goes wrong. I sell them at prices and to people that seem to have a real interest in the horses and their well-being. I stay in touch with buyers with rare exception.

The real targets of this question (why breed more and more horses) are someone other than the "Responsible breeders" you seem to have included. That is an oxymoron if you did, indeed, direct it at them. We are ALL accountable for every aspect of the overpopulation, including those just breeding for pets or for show, or sale.

Perhaps we should all just look around and see if we can't find the perfect horse for sale out there instead of trying to breed it. I know there are far more pet quality/pleasure suited minis available for adoption and/or cheap sale than there are show horses, but I have seen some very nice show horses going for fairly low prices, too.

The problem becomes that the "mill" or quantity over quality breeders just see that as a green light and will then breed more. That's how I see it. There's nothing responsible about it.

Liz

 

[Danielle_E.]

And I'd like to know where you are from because it must be some cool place if the cost of breeding is only 500 per foal. The vet bills alone for the mare will be more than 500,

 

 


The MILL breeder doesn't even spend that on a foal. They breed and let nature take it's course. If the mare dies they replace her.

 


And have we all forgotten KS and what it took to get those MILL horses out of there?

 


That is not what I am saying but we keep only focusing on the "mill horse" breeders, we seem to exclude all others (that includes each and everyone of ourselves that breed). Why? Do we not add to the numbers? Are you saying it's okay to breed correct horses and that doesn't add to the numbers? We are ALL adding to the numbers, no matter what, that is what I am trying to say. We are not exempt from this problem but all we seem to do is point the fingers to the "other guy". Why do we do this? Are we in denial or do we think that there is no problem with too many horses? To me that's the bottom line. It doesn't matter if a horses is from a mill or from a reputable breeder, any of these can end up at a slaughter house. Why do I say that? It's becasue of the economical times we live in at the moment, such as droughts (high feed costs), divorces, bankruptcies, etc. etc. Sometimes things are not in our control and who suffers, the horses and that is why I say we are all responsible for the large number of horses out there period, as breeders. This is not a "quality" issue.

 


I believe not that long ago I read about a sale here where some extremely well bred minis were getting very poor prices. That is a major red flag!!!! It's a supply and demand thing and right now there are TOO MANY period.

 

[bevann]

I am one of those who did not breed any mares for 2008 and may never breed again.I have been in Minis almost 20 years and was one of those who foolishly thought I could make money breeding quality well cared for animals.(boy was I way off on that)I never even broke even in 20 years.I am a hopeless Mini-aholic(I just love having Mini foals on the farm)My horses have always received the best care and even though my place is just an old converted dairy farm with a big dairy barn, it has worked well for the Minis.I have tried very hard to place horses in good homes and buy many back if like situations change.Unfortunatly many buyers just change their minds and don't see a Mini as a long term committment in care.They treat it like a dog or cat that they can take to the pound when the novelty wears off.2007 has been especially tough here.Many Minis returned to their birthplace. 2 little show mares were almost starved when I took them back after being in a new home for only 9 months-it was an inconvenience for the man to feed them and have feet trimmed. 1 mare came back after being re sold for 7 times.(I just gave her to a forever home.Another came back because the buyer really wanted a blk&white(he wasn't blk&white when she bought him)I educate my buyers and send food and hay with the horses and do follow up calls and many times even visit.Sometimes I just can't fix STUPID OWNERS who buy on a whim and don't care about the long term welfare of the animal. I have had some really wonderful buyers who love their Minis like they are part of the family. I wish all Minis could get homes like that. I have people call and visit who I will not sell my animals to.I think I need to get more picky and wait until the best match for the animals come along.