WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES

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If these vets here would make the fees more reasonable I think there would be more people gelding and less breeding going on.
Would that really make a difference? Are there only two choices? Geld or breed? It's entirely possible to have a stallion & still not breed. The philosophy of "I can't afford to geld my colts & therefore I am breeding more of them" just doesn't make sense to me!
 
I don't see what banning slaughter in the US has to do with anything. Horses are still being shipped to Mexico and Canada. and I also don't understand how anyone who loves horses can be opposed to slaughter being banned. Have you seen the videos online of horses being slaughtered?? it's about the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. Can you imagine your horse going through that?

A visit earlier this year to a feed lot in Elk Grove, and there were 3 beautiful yearlings in poor shape. Horse killer Manny Phelps bought these 3 yearlings from a lady in Vacaville. Every year the lady breeds her mares. And then she brags on the internet how she raises colorful and expensive babies. But no one ever wants these babies, so she sells them to horse killer Manny Phelps. A new batch of babies will be born soon. And horse killer Manny Phelps will be waiting for the lady in Vacaville to call him... - www.tbfriends.com


I agree Elsa; I made myself watch a couple of videos on the slaughter of horses and it is horrendous to say the least; those images will haunt me forever. The only reason I forced myself into watching those videos is so that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, the truth behind the slaughtering of these majestic animals. Usually the slaughter is far from humane and the horse is forced to endure a lengthy and agonising death; I would have thought that the killing would be swift and humane but instead it is lengthy and cruel; how I would have loved to see the face of the perpetrator! I can only hope that his life and the lives of those like him will be one of sheer heck and that their own deaths will be lingering and painful!!!

So this "Manny Phelps" makes a living out of slaughtering horses, hmm? well I hope that every dollar earned will only serve to bring this germ of a human being sheer misery!!

As for looking at the online videos of Slaughter... don't trust them. Why.. because PETA will do anything,, yes.. anything including killing animals themselves to make their point and shock people. They have been in trouble before doing what they are doing.

When I raised lambs, I took them to the local slaughter house...took a tour to see how they run things. I am a picky person about killing any animal. It was a very clean place and the folks knew what they were doing. There was no stress to the animals other than being in a new place. That will happen to any animal that is moved from their farm. For those that have not had to slaughter animals for food, or had them taken to slaughter, do not have a realistic view of the process. Meat doesn't morph into those clean little packages in the store...they come from an animal.

Another problem this brings up... alot of the Anti slaughter people, love rare animals..you know the kind that are kept in Zoo's. Guess what the Zoo's feed those rare animals? Horse meat... and when I worked at the Oakland Zoo...that is all they could afford to feed, is horse meat.

Rather see an animal used, than abused and left to die slowly.

Anyway... this issue goes round and round.. those that have no animals and get caught up to the romance of saving the world...without knowing everything that goes on with breeding good animals...that one should not lump all breeders in the same boat and so on........

I would recommend to those that are looking through rose colored glasses...thinking forcing things like No slaughter is going to make the world better. Do their research....real research without passing judgement one way or another... not look at the PETA sights on the Net. Before they come to forums...........
Sounds like you like your pound of steak, lol. You can't just go on blaming PETA for the cruelty that is forced upon animals!!!! PETA has not been around for decades and yet it has always been known that animals are not always slaughtered in a humane manner! As for your little sarcastic comment that "meat doesn't morph into those clean little packages in the store".....well, surprise surprise but I hate to inform you that we all know that fact! The fact remains that animals are NOT killed humanely and PETA has nothing to do with this and although I am not a fan of PETA (mainly due to the fact that they want to abolish the keeping of pets) it appears that most people who are looking for a cop-out inevitably seek to blame PETA for all the horrific things that are taking place in this world. There are inhumane slaughter people who don't give a darn how much an animal suffers; you only have to take a close look at China and the suffering that is purposefully induced in animals to realise that PETA has nothing to do with the fact that some human beings should have been aborted before being given a chance to live a life where they can cause so much pain and suffering into the animal kingdom.
 
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... I can only hope that his life and the lives of those like him will be one of sheer heck and that their own deaths will be lingering and painful!!!
So this "Manny Phelps" makes a living out of slaughtering horses, hmm? well I hope that every dollar earned will only serve to bring this germ of a human being sheer misery!!
So, it is ok to wish pain, suffering, and torture on a human, but slaughter of animals is not ok. THAT is the PETA mentality. Oops, forgot, torture and death of animals is ok with PETA also if it serves to bring about their ends.
 
Well we all know that thats not the right answer... evil for evil.
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But I am on the recieving end of a rescue e-mail list and I get way too many pleas for help and money to aid these unwanted horses..

Who can afford this in todays economy?

Then to make matters worse, this list sends me a video of how these horses are now being shipped to Mexico, and inhumanly slaughtered now..

Well I did not need to watch it,- as I could only imadgine... right?

This situtation is not going in a good direction, unless the government is going to step in and house and home these unwanted animals and take care of them...

But thats probably not going to happen either.
 
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Miniature Princess, the brick comment is in regards to something you were not apart of, and I don't mean that in a mean way, its just something that happened on another forum , that some people here know about and some don't. I am aware that most people don't throw bricks to solve their problems, which is why it is so ironic that this was the discussion on the other thread, so please, don't comment on that until you have seen that thread.

And as far as costs of breeding, well I have never heard about breeding costs in any area but here, I don't know anyone who has spent more than a few hundred dollars for vet visits, this includes the ultrasound, 3 rhino shots, and visit when the foal is born. This is of course if everything goes routine, which most of the time, it does. And again I personally do not consider routine care(feed, vet, dentist, etc) for the parents part of breeding costs, because you have those regardless. And I think I DO live in a GREAT place
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Im not into researching breeding costs across the country. But I think some people are afraid or feel ashamed to say that they are in it for some money(regardless of where the money goes, usually back to the horses) and i don't think it is a shameful thing. If you love what you do and are responsible about it why not not make something back, it doesnt have to be your first priority, I think most people would say that when selling a good home is the first concern. But hat doesn't mean you can't get a little something back for your hard work.
thought I'd add: I also live in Southern Maine, and I'm sure that costs are waay more than that, especially with the lack of large animal vets in this area.
 
You know what I am no longer even sure what the pint of this thread is??

So...we stop breeding because we are responsible breeders and everyone knows just how much the Miniature Horse Industry is adding to the Horse slaughter problem??

Is that it??

Or is it we stop breeding because we are part of the problem- so what about the pony mills that will keep on churning out the problems??

And of course, according to Matt's post of a little while ago, there is not actually a problem with excess Minis anyway.

Matt, I would like to live in your world for just a little while, it must be very restful- there do not appear to be any sort of problems, no over stocking, no high Vets bills, no over heads, no worry.

I envy you.


The whole idea is that so-called "responsible breeders' stop breeding for a while and then a law should be brought whereas no registered breeder should be allowed to breed more than say 2 foals per year and the byb should NOT be allowed to breed PERIOD.
 
... I can only hope that his life and the lives of those like him will be one of sheer heck and that their own deaths will be lingering and painful!!!
So this "Manny Phelps" makes a living out of slaughtering horses, hmm? well I hope that every dollar earned will only serve to bring this germ of a human being sheer misery!!
So, it is ok to wish pain, suffering, and torture on a human, but slaughter of animals is not ok. THAT is the PETA mentality. Oops, forgot, torture and death of animals is ok with PETA also if it serves to bring about their ends.

Bloody oath it's okay to wish pain & suffering on what YOU personally regard as "human beings!" In my books such creatures are nothing short of monsters and they deserve EXACTLY the same kind of suffering and anguish that they themselves impose on a poor defenseless animal!!! Why should I have compassion for such germs, if only it were indeed possible to tell that a fetus would grow to be such a discompassionate and evil adult I would hope that its mother would be in her rightful mind to abort before it gets a chance to create such misery.

Don't copy and paste only what you see fit!!! I specifically stipulated that I do NOT believe in PETA so don't go throwing them into the equation simply to suit your own ends! I have my own mind set and that has nothing whatsoever to do with PETA!!!!!! I also made mention that my argument is not about the slaughtering of animals but the manner in which this is conducted, there are ways and there are ways and I don't believe that I am being unreasonable in EXPECTING that the slaughtering of animals be conducted in a swift, sensible and HUMANE manner! Obviously you don't care how much an animal is made to suffer hence you are defending those butchers that don't care how many attempts they have to make to eventually destroy an animal, putting an animal through sheer agony, fear, torment and atrocious pain!

AND YES I STILL MAINTAIN THAT ANY SUCH "HUMAN" THAT INDUCES SUCH SUFFERING BE MADE TO LIVE A LIFE OF TORMENT AND SUFFERING AND MAY THEIR OWN DEATH BE 10 TIMES WORSE THAN WHAT THEY'VE PUT THE POOR ANIMALS THROUGH AND I WOULD EASILY AND PROUDLY SAY THIS ON A MOUNTAIN TOP! AMEN.
 
Oh Songcatcher, perhaps the following website will act as a reminder as to what a horse is forced to endure during its final moments, but I have the feeling, generated from your post, that this will not perturb you one little bit!!!!

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528

to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out
No, it is NOT simply knocked unconscious...it is KILLED first...then hung. What they use is generally a "humane killer", which is a retractable bolt that DOES instantly kill the animal...of any type or breed.
You, my dear, have quite a fair bit to learn or you need to throw out your rose-coloured glasses! I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your statement that a "humane killer" is used when slaughtering horses! Horses are often hung upside down and their throats are slashed whilst they are still very much conscious!!!

Perhaps you need to see the facts for yourself.....

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528
 
Reading my own note I kina got off track and meant to also say. I have 10 mares, of those 10 probably 6 are in foal and hopefully will have live healthy foals. I am trying to develop a better and better mini with my limited funds. Don't throw me in the backyard breeder category. I am trying to produce what someone can shows...I just don't show just not driven yet I guess...
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I mostly raise minis because I love them. I love the babies I like working with my mares, I would raise them if there was no real value on them...I just like them. they make my heart warm and bring a smile to my face when I am around them.
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Oh yes I would like to make something from them. But if I don't I will still have them as long as my life circumstances allow it.
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I will continue to breed my few mares try to upgrade my herd and just enjoy them. Would love to see one from my breeding show and win, but unless I do it I doubt anyone who shows will give me much attention
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You would be rightfully classed as a LARGE SCALE breeder irrespective of your claims that you are breeding for the show ring! Breeding simply because you happen to want to upgrade your herd and to just "enjoy" them or simply because they bring a smile to your face is no reason to be bringing so many foals into the world! I would hate to think if every horse owner stood to breed 6 mares yearly how many more horses would simply end up as dog food or killed and exported for human consumption. You have to bear in mind that horses have a long life span and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to ensure that they will have a happy life and most of all a dignified ending. Think of the long term consequences instead of your own short term hobby, being selfless would make such a huge difference in this world!!!!

You might be surprized at the results you get K9. The joy Cindy and I get from seeing someone show one of our babies to a win at any show is the next best thing to seeing one of our grandkids do so. 5 years ago we had not started showing and were just folks that liked the mini's and had been rasing them for a long time. I semi-retired and so did Cindy so we now have the time to enjoy them even more. We are addictted and love being so.
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On your other subject of the prices for the big horses and how it is going to effect things in the coming years. I like you am really worried, the incidense of neglect is going up here in the metro-plex of Houston as is shown by the increase in rescue calls. I personally have seen this thru a good friend that works in that area.

The Killer buyers are not as prevalent as they used to be, but they are still there. Now days they only buy the fat horses we used to call pleasure riders, as the death rate during transport is too high on the skinny or ill horses. That sucks as far as I am concerned. but the economics of the thing is working for them. Now days you see nice looking horses on POTS crammed together being hauled into Mexico which is 300 miles or so to the south being hauled down US 59 and the humane socities etc are powerless to do anything about it under the present days laws.
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This ban on slaughter is a real nightmare as all it has done is drive down prices and making horses disposable items for many people and forced the horses to be transported 100's of miles in really poor conditions. Give me the choice of a quick death or a lingering neglected life and I will take the first please. :DOH!

I would have much rather have seen tight regulations on methods of slaughter, humane treatment during transport, prior to slaughter and an end use than what we have now which is basically unregulated in-humane treatment of animals that don't deserve it.
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Any reason why a ban is not in place to prevent horses being exported to Mexico and other neighbouring towns???? What's the point in banning the slaughtering of horses in the US and yet still allow the horses to be transported to other areas where they are forced to endure a lengthy and anguishing ride to their deaths?????

THE ONLY WAY TO RESOLVE THIS IS TO BAN BYB AND TO INSTILL A LAW WHERE ONLY 2 FOALS PER registered BREEDER!!!
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I agree that banning the slaughter of horses in the US is a big mistake. And the effects are there to see right now. I can give any one 4 numbers to call with people trying to give horses away... nice well cared for horses, big and small.. You can buy a registered horse for under $100!! Broke for $250 or less.

We as horsemen and women, as adults should understand that slaughter is a needed part of our world. It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ... the mean and wild ones can buck off ,rear, kick and bite more people. Be sold again to another person who they can do the same too. The poorly bred can grow up to be adults and be bred by some one thinking they can sell the foal.YUP so much better

Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse. But now there is no kill horse so they are all worth litle or nothing. With no market for them as meat.. they slaughter horse will be around for years to come. Many hurting other people... and to put them down with drugs is just a waste.... they are meat and there are many staving poeple in the world...

And I have seen a more then one horse suffer when being put down by drugs.. when it goes bad too.

In the US most people see horses and PETS, but to most the rest of the world they are livestock... livestock is meat..food..

The idea that any slaughter house is going to treat the horses as PETA shows is wrong. They do not go out of there way to hurt the horse. They want and 99.9 percent of the time have a clean quick kill. But PETA only shows the ones that went wrong the worst ones they can find. I have freind who worked at a slaughter house and he said things went right 99.99% of the time, and when it did not they all were upset.. NO one wants to see them suffer. They do not want the horse to jump around like PETA shows.. it would be dumb it would break thier equitment and might hurt workers.

The problem with horse slaughter is not the

slaughter but the long hauls to the plants..


It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ...


When horses are sold to slaughter for consumption, they are sold by the lb. What do you think has more value: a sick uncared for horse or a well-fed and cared for horse? I don't agree with your statement at all. Plenty of "good" horses go to slaughter due to oevrpopulation, most of the time, they are wild because they have never been handled. It has nothing to do with sick, wild and mean

DITTO. Horses are sent to their deaths because of overpopulation and not because of some misguided idea that it's only the sick, skinny or wild etc that are doomed.

Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse


Ferdinand, the 1986 Kentucky Derby winner who went on to capture the following year's Horse of the Year title with a dramatic victory over 1987 Derby hero Alysheba in the Breeders' Cup Classic, is dead. The Blood-Horse has learned the big chestnut son of Nijinsky II died sometime in 2002, most likely in a slaughterhouse in Japan, where his career at stud was unsuccessful.

Reporter Barbara Bayer, as detailed in an exclusive story in the July 26 issue of The Blood-Horse, attempted to learn of Ferdinand's whereabouts after a member of the Howard Keck family that owned and bred the horse inquired about having him returned to the United States, where he began his career at stud. As a racehorse, Ferdinand won eight of 29 starts and earned $3,777,978, retiring as what was then the fifth leading money winner of all time. His victory in the Kentucky Derby gave trainer Charlie Whittingham his first success in that classic, and it was the final career Derby win for jockey Bill Shoemaker.

Ferdinand was retired to stud in 1989 at Claiborne Farm near Paris, Ky., where he was foaled. His initial stud fee was $30,000 live foal, but he achieved little success as a stallion from his first few crops of runners.

Sold to Japan's JS Company in the fall of 1994 at a time when Japanese breeding farms were aggressively pursuing American and European breeding stock, Ferdinand spent six breeding seasons at Arrow Stud on the northern island of Hokkaido, from 1995-2000. Initially popular with local breeders (he was mated to 77 mares his first year), Ferdinand was bred to just 10 mares in his final year at Arrow, and his owners opted to get rid of him.

After efforts by the farm staff to place Ferdinand with a riding club failed, he passed into the hands of a Monbetsu, Japan, horse dealer named Yoshikazu Watanabe and left the farm Feb. 3, 2001. No attempt was made to contact either the Keck family or Claiborne Farm.

Bayer at first was told by Watanabe that Ferdinand had been "given to a friend." When she asked for more information, she was told Ferdinand "was gelded and I think he's at a riding club far away from here." In fact, records showed Ferdinand was bred to six mares in 2001 and then two in 2002. He spent a period of time at Goshima Farm near Niikappu, where a former handler at Arrow Stud had seen him.

Finally, when Bayer told Watanabe she wanted to see Ferdinand, the story changed yet again. "Actually, he isn't around anymore," she was told. "He was disposed of late last year." Ferdinand's registration in Japan was annulled Sept. 1, 2002, Bayer learned.

"In Japan, the term 'disposed of' is used to mean slaughtered," Bayer wrote in The Blood-Horse. "No one can say for sure when and where Ferdinand met his end, but it would seem clear he met it in a slaughterhouse."

"Unfortunately, to those well-versed in the realities beyond the glitter and glory of the racetrack, it comes as no surprise," Bayer wrote. "Ferdinand's story is the story of nearly every imported stallion in Japan at that point in time when the figures no longer weigh in his favor. In a country where racing is kept booming by the world's highest purses and astronomical betting revenues, Ferdinand's fate is not the exception. It is the rule."

"That's just disgusting," said Dell Hancock, whose family operates Claiborne Farm, upon hearing the news of Ferdinand's likely fate. "It's so sad, but there is nothing anyone can do now except support John Hettinger's efforts to stop the slaughter of Thoroughbreds in this country. That wouldn't change anything in Japan...to have this happen to a Derby winner is just terrible."

While the Japanese are among the societies that consume horse meat, it is more likely a slaughtered Thoroughbred would be used for pet food, since the meat consumed by humans is a certain breed of horse raised specifically for that purpose. The slaughter of no longer useful imported breeding stock and many domestic Japanese Thoroughbreds is not uncommon. Shortages of land and the high cost of maintaining a pensioned horse are reasons slaughter is considered an alternate. As in the U.S., where slaughter is also an option available for horse owners, a number of organizations are attempting to provide homes for retired and pensioned racehorses, stallions, and mares. The Japan Racing Association funds one program that currently benefits 90 horses.

Among the people Bayer met and spoke with while trying to learn of Ferdinand's fate was Toshiharu Kaibazawa, who worked as a stallion groom at Arrow Stud during the horse's years there. He called the former champion "the gentlest horse you could imagine. He'd come over when I called to him in the pasture. And anyone could have led him with just a halter on him. ... He'd come over to me and press his head up against me. He was so sweet."

"I want to get angry about what happened to him," Kaibazawa added. "It's just heartless, too heartless."

End.

Many horses that end up at slaughter is basically because the person doesn't want them anymore or care about them. It is not because they are sick, too old, etc. etc. it's because of us humans basically, animals are disposal, especially in the racing industry.

You would think that the owners of Ferdinand would have had the heart to keep him considering the amount of money that he made for them! All I can say is that I hope Karma bites his former owners in the backside and that they don't get to enjoy any of the 3 millions or so dollars that they easily reaped only to dispose of Ferdinand just like toilet paper!!!
 
First of all, let me say I have not read this entire thread. However, I did want to say a few things in response to what I have read. Why do we breed horses? That is the question posed as the title of this thread. Actually, I am currently not a breeder although I have been and maybe will be again someday. I can say that my goal for breeding was to breed animals that other people could gain joy from owning. I did my best to sell the ones I sold to people I thought would be good, responsible owners. None of us can guarantee how other people will treat animals though. People lie and people change. The people we sell to may be good owners but then sell to someone who isn't. The only way to guarantee that a horse has a good home for life is if we provide that ourselves. However, if we did that then no one new would ever get the chance to experience the joys of horse ownership. It would be much harder to incorporate some new blood into your herd also. So, I think selling is a necessary part of the horse industry. In order to sell, there has to be new animals generated. In order to perpetuate horses, there has to be breeding. I truly believe most of the people here on this forum are responsible horse owners and if they breed do that responsibly as well. If they sell, the strive to do that resposibly because they have put money, effort, affection, worry, blood, sweat, and tears, etc. into these foals. They don't throw them away. The problem is with those people who are not responsible owners and we all know that. Coming on here and saying so is like preaching to the choir. Those irresponsible owners are going to get horses from somewhere. If the responsible breeders quit breeding and selling, it wouldn't change them one bit. In fact, they might even start breeding more. That's definitely not what we need. What about all those unwanted horses? They were all wanted at some point by somebody. Unfortunately, they are no longer wanted by anyone around them. Some of them are unhealthy, injured, lame, or mentally messed up to the point they could no longer have a good quality life. Some of them are healthy in all respects but maybe aren't trained or something along those lines. For whatever reason, they are now in the catergory "unwanted." Sad? Yes. Avoidable? Perhaps so, perhaps not; it depends on each horse's unique circumstances. Are they truly unwanted though? No! There are people on this earth who enjoy eating horsemeat. Would I want to do so? No, but I refuse to condemn those who do. I believe that "every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving." Americans don't eat horsemeat because it is not in our culture to do so. That's the only reason. Many Indians do not eat cow and probably think it is dispicable and disgusting that we do. Again, it is a cultural thing. So, I think that a horse ending up being eaten is slightly sad to me but not really bad. At least that horse has some purpose even in its death when it may not have had one in life. That said, if a horse is to be eaten, it needs to be slaughtered in a humane way. If you read up on the captive bolt gun (I suggest sites such as thehorse.com), you will find out it is actually a very humane way for a horse to be killed. It is perhaps even more humane than lethal injection. The problem in those videos you posted, Celeste, is that aparently it was not be used correctly which turned something that should have been quick and painless into torture. That is wrong! However, please remember that just because something moves does not mean that it feels pain. A horse can be hit with a captive bolt gun and be dead but still move. Muscles have a way of moving even after death. Just think of a lizard's tail flopping around after it has come off the lizard. Is that tail feeling pain? Is it really alive? No, but it is moving. Movement does not equal pain and life.

Hmmm, ok, I guess I have had my say now.
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To summarize, I support responsible horse ownership, breeding, and selling. I also support humane horse slaughter.

Edited to add: I know I already wrote a book, but wanted to say a big part of this view is that although I value animals tremendously, I know they are animals. Humans are not. Humans are special becuase we are made in God's image. This is one of my core beliefs and shapes my views of many things.
 
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The problem in those videos you posted, Celeste, is that aparently it was not be used correctly which turned something that should have been quick and painless into torture. That is wrong! However, please remember that just because something moves does not mean that it feels pain. A horse can be hit with a captive bolt gun and be dead but still move. Muscles have a way of moving even after death. Just think of a lizard's tail flopping around after it has come off the lizard. Is that tail feeling pain? Is it really alive? No, but it is moving. Movement does not equal pain and life.

Hmmm, ok, I guess I have had my say now. biggrin.gif To summarize, I support responsible horse ownership, breeding, and selling. I also support humane horse slaughter. - written by crponies.

crponies, I beg to differ in that, as you claim, a horse can be hit with a bolt gun and still move. Those images on those videos clearly demonstrate that the horse in question was still very much alive, it was more a case of the idiot not aiming correctly and hence missing the vital points which would have put an end to that poor horse's misery! That horse clearly felt the pain every step of the way! If a horse is killed by someone who knows what they're doing there is no movement whatsoever! Sometimes muscles can twitch but that is vastly different to an animal attempting to gain its composure and trying to get up again! Yes that horse felt pain, it was not dead and it doesn't take Einstein to figure that out. I have had several elderly dogs of mine put to sleep by injection as they would have died in a matter of days or weeks anyway and they died peacefully, there was no twitching, no movement, nothing, zero....it's as if they just drifted off to sleep and that is how it should be, death equates no movement!
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This thread keeps going on and on and on and on.

Personally, I am someone who takes breeding horses VERY seriously. I have honestly spent years deciding if I wanted to breed. Then spent years more learning and then picking out my breeding herd prior to putting a program into action. I expect my first home bred foals, out of all this time I've had miniatures, this Spring.

I would hate to see the top notch breeders limited to two (or even twenty in some cases!) foals per year. There are some amazing breeders who are responsible for massive improvements to the breed. And, if not for some of them, I'd not have the horses I treasure so much.

It's s free country. Instead of even pretending and day dreaming it's possible to enforce breeding limits, how about educating buyers and aspiring breeders. If the non-breeding quality mares and stallions stopped reproducing, because their owners came to realize they are not physically breed quality, THAT would reduce numbers considerably.
 
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Obviously we are just all so intellectually inferior to Adolph Celeste that we should have no say in the matter. If we only had the sense to let this person make all the decisions in the world all our problems would be solved.

NO ONE on this thread has advocated that it is alright to inflict any kind of pain and torture on ANY living creature except Celeste.

If you believe everything you see on video, you become very sick and twisted. Obviously.
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No kidding
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Hey, if Celeste was willing to come and help me take care of my horses, work with my horses, worry over my horses, purchase my horses, buy feed for my horses, pay for vetting for my horses, etc. etc., etc., I might even give her half a vote in what I decide to do with my horses.
 
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