WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES

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An animal (or person) with a non beating heart will not bleed so while the animal may be brain dead with no chance of recovery the heart at the time of bleeding is still in fact beating.
Which is what I was saying - what I saw - way too many times - the horse was dead before it hit the floor - and is then immediately processed and bled out... as the blood keeps flowing and autonomic impulses take a while to slow down and stop...

Except - as rabbit noted - in cases involving kosher and Halal butchering..

Matt - I have been drawn and quartered at times for not saying that all slaughterhouses are evil and bad and clamouring that they be closed... I have been told time and time again that what I witnessed was "an act" or a lie on my part... and it gets very tiresome. Some want you to react exactly the same way they do, think as they do, etc.

And God forbid that you have any contrary opinions or concerns...
 
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One thing in all this that I have NEVER been able to understand, not will i, is this.

Why is it OK to slaughter cows pigs sheep, etc, for human consumption, but not horses??

I can understand and respect vegans on this front, I cannot understand meat eaters.

If you eat meat then you condone animals being killed that you may do so.

Why is it OK for any animal to be mistreated, to not have the same standards of treatment??

Why is it OK to use a cattle prod on a cow and not OK to use it on a horse??

Why is it OK for any animal to be loaded onto double deckers, packed in and travelled thousands of miles in total misery??

This is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

Shut the slaughterhouses, archive absolutely nothing except misery, pat yourselves on the back and go home.

Newsflash:

Animals are still being slaughtered in less than acceptable conditions, all over the US, all over the WORLD!!

If we, internationally, get laws passed that protect ALL animals bound for slaughter, horses would automatically be protected.

Why was this not done???

I have raised the Korean/dog eating analogy before- I cringe form the idea BUT, if the animals were raised, kept and dispatched in acceptable manners, I could , morally, have no objections.

I would still cringe, but I could do so with a clear conscience, and inwardly.
 
if the treatment of the horses were improved, I would have no problem with slaughter. As some of you have stated, you took your horse to slaughter and had it put down, which I have absolutely no problem with. My issue is more with the poor conditions concerning mass transportation (when the horses come from feed lots vs a responsible owner) and the fact that mistakes can be made. A bullet doesn't always hit the target (which I have witnessed first-hand in person, not a video online).

i realize everyone has a different stance concerning slaughter, which I completely respect.

My only issue with it is when we are talking about untrained and unprofessional people resulting in the animal suffering.
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Hello Jane:

I'm sorry this question is off topic, but I've been meaning to ask you this for quite sometime. I understand the Rabbit part in your forum name of Rabbitsfizz, but what about the fizz part? Where did that come from? Feel free to answer privately if you'd like.

Dawn
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I agree that banning the slaughter of horses in the US is a big mistake. And the effects are there to see right now. I can give any one 4 numbers to call with people trying to give horses away... nice well cared for horses, big and small.. You can buy a registered horse for under $100!! Broke for $250 or less.

We as horsemen and women, as adults should understand that slaughter is a needed part of our world. It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ... the mean and wild ones can buck off ,rear, kick and bite more people. Be sold again to another person who they can do the same too. The poorly bred can grow up to be adults and be bred by some one thinking they can sell the foal.YUP so much better

Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse. But now there is no kill horse so they are all worth litle or nothing. With no market for them as meat.. they slaughter horse will be around for years to come. Many hurting other people... and to put them down with drugs is just a waste.... they are meat and there are many staving poeple in the world...

And I have seen a more then one horse suffer when being put down by drugs.. when it goes bad too.

In the US most people see horses and PETS, but to most the rest of the world they are livestock... livestock is meat..food..

The idea that any slaughter house is going to treat the horses as PETA shows is wrong. They do not go out of there way to hurt the horse. They want and 99.9 percent of the time have a clean quick kill. But PETA only shows the ones that went wrong the worst ones they can find. I have freind who worked at a slaughter house and he said things went right 99.99% of the time, and when it did not they all were upset.. NO one wants to see them suffer. They do not want the horse to jump around like PETA shows.. it would be dumb it would break thier equitment and might hurt workers.

The problem with horse slaughter is not the

slaughter but the long hauls to the plants..
 
Rabbitsfizz, I can only speak for myself, and say that there ARE people out there who feel the same, but perhaps not on this board, or maybe so, I really don't know.

But in response to your comment, I don't agree with any animal being slaughtered in a careless or abusive manner. I don't agree with any butcher process that starts before the animal is completely dead, or at least completely out of it. So not all horse people who disagree with horse slaughter disregard all the other animals. But since this is a HORSE forum, horses, and in the case of this thread, horse slaughter, have been the focus of my comments.
 
It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ...


When horses are sold to slaughter for consumption, they are sold by the lb. What do you think has more value: a sick uncared for horse or a well-fed and cared for horse? I don't agree with your statement at all. Plenty of "good" horses go to slaughter due to oevrpopulation, most of the time, they are wild because they have never been handled. It has nothing to do with sick, wild and mean
 
Matt,

I am not sure I understand your comment to Rabbits... she is NOT saying that some animals can be slaughtered in a careless manner at all! Where did you read that? What she is saying is <I think> that why the big deal about the way horses are slaughtered, when ALL animals that go that route should be slaughtered humanely, no matter what it is.

To me, meat is meat- I have eaten many different varieties, some probably considered 'exotic' I guess you could say - but then, it depends on who you're asking too. To some, it might be normal.
 
I don't think the topic was slaughter. But, I had a farm kill of an Ostrich and I will NEVER do that again. The guy cought the bird and slit it's throat. He then let it bleed to death. I can only imagine the horror that the bird went through. It doesn't matter what you are processing for food. It just needs to be done humanely.

As for the over breeding, there has been a huge number of very cheep horses in my area. It hasn't been minis as much as big horses. Someone even advertised a 3 year old halter quality arab mare for $100. Most weanlings and yearlings are selling advertised for $250 These are not auction prices. They are advertised prices. They are picture ads and none are in thin condition but, if we continue to breed we are not going to get even $1000 for quality horses.
 
HGFarm,

What rabbitsfizz meant, was that she doesn't understand those activists who are against horse slaughter but seem to have no problem with the slaughter of other animals, because slaughter is slaughter, regardless of the animal. And in that respect, I agree with her, it doesn't make sense for someone to think that the idea of a horse being slaughtered should be any different from a cow, pig, chicken, etc.

My point was simply that I agree with her, and because I AM against the brutality and abuse that DOES happen in SOME slaughter houses, I wanted to make it clear that I feel the same way about the slaughter of any animal in that manner. But I believe that the reason people are focusing on the horse, rather than other animals, is because this is a horse forum, not because they don't care about the slaughter of other animals.
 
I can see that, BUT, if the laws were in place for ALL slaughter houses, everywhere, whatever animal, the law would be the law,

I know in some cases the laws must be there and just not being enforced, but banning double deckers would be a good way to start- for ALL animals.

Pigs do not like being whanged about on the top deck of these things any more than horses do, even if because of the size it is marginally more humane in the case of a pig.

Ban double deckers (they are already illegal here for horses and cattle) and ban any animal crossing a border alive for slaughter- that is a law I would LOVE to get passed in Europe.

I do not see the sense of packing horses into these crates as tight as they can be and then travelling them hundreds of miles during which some will inevitably die, in order to slaughter them, when they could be slaughtered and butchered in their place of origin (in Europe at least) and then transported far more economically in a freezer truck for as long and as far as they wanted.

I do not see the point of singling out horses, whether this is a horse Forum or not, to stop the slaughter.

Stop ALL slaughter or make the laws work, stopping horse slaughter is pointless and elitist- I do not know how the people who got this law passed can sleep at night!!
 
I can see that, BUT, if the laws were in place for ALL slaughter houses, everywhere, whatever animal, the law would be the law,

I know in some cases the laws must be there and just not being enforced, but banning double deckers would be a good way to start- for ALL animals.

USDA Proposing Change to Horse Slaughter Transport Regulations

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11000
 
I can see that, BUT, if the laws were in place for ALL slaughter houses, everywhere, whatever animal, the law would be the law,

I know in some cases the laws must be there and just not being enforced, but banning double deckers would be a good way to start- for ALL animals.

Pigs do not like being whanged about on the top deck of these things any more than horses do, even if because of the size it is marginally more humane in the case of a pig.

Ban double deckers (they are already illegal here for horses and cattle) and ban any animal crossing a border alive for slaughter- that is a law I would LOVE to get passed in Europe.

I do not see the sense of packing horses into these crates as tight as they can be and then travelling them hundreds of miles during which some will inevitably die, in order to slaughter them, when they could be slaughtered and butchered in their place of origin (in Europe at least) and then transported far more economically in a freezer truck for as long and as far as they wanted.

I do not see the point of singling out horses, whether this is a horse Forum or not, to stop the slaughter.

Stop ALL slaughter or make the laws work, stopping horse slaughter is pointless and elitist- I do not know how the people who got this law passed can sleep at night!!
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I usually stay out of these topics but I very much agree with this.
 
Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse


Ferdinand, the 1986 Kentucky Derby winner who went on to capture the following year's Horse of the Year title with a dramatic victory over 1987 Derby hero Alysheba in the Breeders' Cup Classic, is dead. The Blood-Horse has learned the big chestnut son of Nijinsky II died sometime in 2002, most likely in a slaughterhouse in Japan, where his career at stud was unsuccessful.

Reporter Barbara Bayer, as detailed in an exclusive story in the July 26 issue of The Blood-Horse, attempted to learn of Ferdinand's whereabouts after a member of the Howard Keck family that owned and bred the horse inquired about having him returned to the United States, where he began his career at stud. As a racehorse, Ferdinand won eight of 29 starts and earned $3,777,978, retiring as what was then the fifth leading money winner of all time. His victory in the Kentucky Derby gave trainer Charlie Whittingham his first success in that classic, and it was the final career Derby win for jockey Bill Shoemaker.

Ferdinand was retired to stud in 1989 at Claiborne Farm near Paris, Ky., where he was foaled. His initial stud fee was $30,000 live foal, but he achieved little success as a stallion from his first few crops of runners.

Sold to Japan's JS Company in the fall of 1994 at a time when Japanese breeding farms were aggressively pursuing American and European breeding stock, Ferdinand spent six breeding seasons at Arrow Stud on the northern island of Hokkaido, from 1995-2000. Initially popular with local breeders (he was mated to 77 mares his first year), Ferdinand was bred to just 10 mares in his final year at Arrow, and his owners opted to get rid of him.

After efforts by the farm staff to place Ferdinand with a riding club failed, he passed into the hands of a Monbetsu, Japan, horse dealer named Yoshikazu Watanabe and left the farm Feb. 3, 2001. No attempt was made to contact either the Keck family or Claiborne Farm.

Bayer at first was told by Watanabe that Ferdinand had been "given to a friend." When she asked for more information, she was told Ferdinand "was gelded and I think he's at a riding club far away from here." In fact, records showed Ferdinand was bred to six mares in 2001 and then two in 2002. He spent a period of time at Goshima Farm near Niikappu, where a former handler at Arrow Stud had seen him.

Finally, when Bayer told Watanabe she wanted to see Ferdinand, the story changed yet again. "Actually, he isn't around anymore," she was told. "He was disposed of late last year." Ferdinand's registration in Japan was annulled Sept. 1, 2002, Bayer learned.

"In Japan, the term 'disposed of' is used to mean slaughtered," Bayer wrote in The Blood-Horse. "No one can say for sure when and where Ferdinand met his end, but it would seem clear he met it in a slaughterhouse."

"Unfortunately, to those well-versed in the realities beyond the glitter and glory of the racetrack, it comes as no surprise," Bayer wrote. "Ferdinand's story is the story of nearly every imported stallion in Japan at that point in time when the figures no longer weigh in his favor. In a country where racing is kept booming by the world's highest purses and astronomical betting revenues, Ferdinand's fate is not the exception. It is the rule."

"That's just disgusting," said Dell Hancock, whose family operates Claiborne Farm, upon hearing the news of Ferdinand's likely fate. "It's so sad, but there is nothing anyone can do now except support John Hettinger's efforts to stop the slaughter of Thoroughbreds in this country. That wouldn't change anything in Japan...to have this happen to a Derby winner is just terrible."

While the Japanese are among the societies that consume horse meat, it is more likely a slaughtered Thoroughbred would be used for pet food, since the meat consumed by humans is a certain breed of horse raised specifically for that purpose. The slaughter of no longer useful imported breeding stock and many domestic Japanese Thoroughbreds is not uncommon. Shortages of land and the high cost of maintaining a pensioned horse are reasons slaughter is considered an alternate. As in the U.S., where slaughter is also an option available for horse owners, a number of organizations are attempting to provide homes for retired and pensioned racehorses, stallions, and mares. The Japan Racing Association funds one program that currently benefits 90 horses.

Among the people Bayer met and spoke with while trying to learn of Ferdinand's fate was Toshiharu Kaibazawa, who worked as a stallion groom at Arrow Stud during the horse's years there. He called the former champion "the gentlest horse you could imagine. He'd come over when I called to him in the pasture. And anyone could have led him with just a halter on him. ... He'd come over to me and press his head up against me. He was so sweet."

"I want to get angry about what happened to him," Kaibazawa added. "It's just heartless, too heartless."

End.

Many horses that end up at slaughter is basically because the person doesn't want them anymore or care about them. It is not because they are sick, too old, etc. etc. it's because of us humans basically, animals are disposal, especially in the racing industry.
 
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Well written, Danielle but I do not, for one second, buy the fact that the people selling the horse, when it failed to meet their requirements, did not know what it's fate would ultimately be in Japan.

Almost the whole WORLD knows what the ultimate fate of racehorses in Japan is, you may be thankful that they are actually slaughtered now, instead of being left to starve to death as one "retired" racehorse was after it had broken it's leg.

It was in the grounds of a Japanese Vet College when it was found and rescued by Europeans.

I am sorry I cannot remember the exact details but it was instrumental in the laws for humane destruction in Japan being changed- at the time it was illegal except by ritual slaughterers as it is today in Muslim countries.

So if no-one could be bothered to take the horse to a slaughterhouse, basically, nothing was done.

I do not breed pedigree puppies anymore but when I did I had a strict "not fr export" policy which was stamped on their papers- I could even have stipulated specifically not for export to Japan, had I wished, but as dogs were being taken to Australia, re-registered and then exported to Japan it was easier not to export at all.

I cannot say what the situation is at the moment and I would certainly be very glad indeed to see facts to change my mind about the place, but when I was breeding dogs there was a craze for specific breeds in Japan- once a new breed became the "in" thing the old one was, quite simply, put out on the street.

As I said, I would be very glad to hear that this is no longer the case.

However, given the poor reputation the country has, I am surprised the owners sold the horse- no, actually, because I am cynical, I am not actually surprised at all.
 
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I was just pointing out that the majority of horses going through slaughter auctions are not horses tha are lame, sick, or elderly. There is a site that I will find, it's a website dealing with horses in the kill pens in the Washington state area, one which is dear to my heart and who I have contributed many times to get them horses out before they are ship out to slaughter. It's so sad because many of these horses are just fine, many are in foal
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. Obviously these are from owners that either sold them at low end auctions, THAT IS WHY HATE THESE WITH A PASSION, and basically don't care what happens to them as long as they get their $$ and off they go and breed more of them,
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Here, take a look and you will see what I mean. These horses are in a feedlot waiting to be taken away to their death
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http://columbiabasinequinerescue.org/DEF-H...ageType=Feedlot

On that site, look at the last horse listed. If I was closer that Paint mare would have a home. What a perfect safe mount for a kid!!!! and yet going to slaughter
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. And the mares that are pregnant
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. There are usually many more listed on this site but they ship out I believe to slaughter on a weekly basis. I know many times we have had to work against the clock to get the ones we can afford out of this horrible situation. The main site is

http://columbiabasinequinerescue.org

and then if you are going to look at the "gone" part of this site better have a box of kleenex

http://columbiabasinequinerescue.org/DEF-H...p?PageType=Gone
 
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I'm not sure how to word this, but I think it could potentially help with these issues.

Are there any type of grants we can apply for to get the money to pay for these lesser quality stallions to be gelded or even mares?
 
One big problem in my area is that the vets have an association where they "SET" the fees. That is why we spend $350 for a simple geld and other areas see fees of $50-$100. If these vets here would make the fees more reasonable I think there would be more people gelding and less breeding going on. Personally, I do not like to sell my horses. So, if I breed I then have more and more horses. I can't do that. have nothing bred for 08 and I don't think I am breeding for 09.
 
Looking back at your posts, I see you are from Australia. Is this post referring to horse overpopulation in Australia?

Yes I am from Australia but I can safely say that the horse overpopulation is not strictly an 'australian' problem, unfortunately it is very much UNIVERSAL.



If only reputable horse breeders were to stop breeding for one year it would make a big difference to the horse overpopulation
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....

No, it wouldn't. That year the BYB/millers would fill the world with their poorly bred animals. and THIS would happen:

If ALL reputable breeders stopped breeding for a year, how many people would wind up purchasing from BAD breeders?

Now, if you could stop the pony mills/BYB for a year THAT could help. But it will never happen. Not in our lifetime.

Lucy


I would have to say that both "reputable" breeders and BYB should stop breeding for a fair while, I was being conservative when saying that the breeding of horses (and dogs for that matter) should cease for a year, that would not stand to achieve much....I should have also added that in an ideal world legislation would be passed that would stamp out BYB but it isn't an ideal world unfortunately, never was and never will be! Also, there should be a law that dictates how many foals each "reputable" breeder is allowed to bring into the world....

There are also a high number of so-called "reputable" breeders who lay claim to wanting to "better the breed" who breed on a large scale and I fail to see how this is done for the betterment of the breed, lol.....even if efforts are made indeed to breed from quality stock, commonsense dictates that there can be too much of a good thing and at the end of the day this is not good for the animal kingdom
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Biggest problem are not the good breeders but the big Horse "Puppy" Mill breeders that breed junk and sell to who ever and those folks are not on this list. Those kind of breeders are the ones to pump out tons of horses with out care to where they go to.

Me... like I would say most of the breeders here. I only breed sometimes..my last foal is still here. We are also very careful to find very good homes for our horses. I know where all but one of my horses are and how they are doing. In 30 years loosing only track of one is pretty good. Don't like it but until the owner transfers his papers in his name....but I will keep looking.

There are horses like Icelandic's,,, their prices are not coming down..doubt they will, there are too few of them to add to the horse population problem. Same with other rare breeds of horses. Demand for trained Icelandics are still higher than horses avaialble.

Until there are controls of the junk breeders nothing is going to change. Look at QH, Arabs, TB and so on...

I must rather have good breeders, bred good quality horses and be able to buy those types, than just buy puppy mill horses.

It's admirable when breeders do give a darn in ensuring that their horses end up in a good home but given the lifespan of a horse it is safe to assume that horses will change hands more so than any other animal so hence how can a breeder ensure that the horse that s/he is responsible for bringing into the world will always have a loving home? Just curious.....
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