WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES

[Margo_C-T]

From what I've been reading on various horse-oriented forums, all that banning horse slaughter in the US has done is assure that many horses sold through local auctions will take a MISERABLE 'last ride' to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. Some 'improvement', huh??? The whole 'push' to ban slaughter in the US was VERY short-sighted, IMO, and has not really 'improved' the situation for unwanted horses.

In a perfect world, the kind of people who breed ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, at minimal expense and maximum profit, would STOP DOING SO--and the 'need' for horse slaughter would drop immensely--although I have to honestly say that I think there will ALWAYS be SOME horses that turn out, for any number of reasons, to be suited ONLY for slaughter--NOT because they have gotten OLD, but due to an intractable temperment and the like. Let's be honest--there are NOT enough financial resources in the world to 'save' EVERY horse, no matter how much, ideally, some think we should. For my part, I will do my best for those I am already responsible for--which might, and SHOULD, include the option of humane euthanization at some point.

Some of you probably aren't going to like this reference, but I have been reading the "FHOTD" site pretty regularly...and although I do NOT agree always or completely with the author's opinions and tone, nor that of some of the responses, I have to say that I APPLAUD someone who 'calls it as she sees it' as she does;as a knowledgable horse person! Is she always 'on point'? Not in all cases, but often, yes...she rails against horse breeding and management(more accurately, LACK of same!)practices, that NEED to be railed against, and often exposes 'breeders' and 'owners' that in MY opinion, need to be eliminated from the human breeding pool,themselves.(Remember, I said, MY opinion!) I would say that the problem of overproduction of horses that will end up not being very desirable, and therefore at risk of ending up in a slaughter auction, is WIDESPREAD throughout the horse industry, period. It is 'easier' to overproduce MINIATURE horses, for reasons already outlined by others; it seems to me that the best effort we ALL can make is to educate new owners, QUIT stressing 'breeding potential' about virtually EVERY 'entire' horse offered for sale, and in the case of EVERY person who is breeding, to look closely at whether you are carefully and selectively trying to produce animals that are better than their parents, or are basically producing numbers, for income. Honestly, the longer I live, the more I realize that I am uncomfortable with the concept of producing companion-type animals for sale/profit. It is just too 'iffy', for me, personally, anymore.

Margo

 

[maestoso]

Jill, if you are selling for anything at all, you ARE in it for the money, even if it just offsets bills. If you didn't sell, you would have to pay the bills with money from somewhere else. If you were truly and completely NOT in it for the money, you would find lovely homes and give your horses away. Nobody is saying your getting rich, but you ARE making money, even if it goes right back to the horses.

 

[Jill]

Well, I didn't know you'd seen my books, Matt, but from what I project, if I decide to sell from this foal crop, the expenses off set are the expenses it took to put it into place. If I had not decided to breed, then I'd not have those expenses to offset. It's fine if you want to think I'm into horses for the money. I'm probably just a money manager and financial planner for the fun and relaxation it gives me

 

[flamingstar]

I was part of a horse rescue. We got a truckload of horses from Alberta, and here they stay. Well not my house, but my partner in the rescues. I've now removed myself from that rescue, as all the partner does now is breed and see how many "Mustangs" she can get from the breedings. She is tooting her stallion as a Spanish Colonial Mustang, which there is no paperwork, no dna or anything else of the sort. He is a crossbreed scrub horse from Alberta, who was running wild on a farm. She breeds her mares each year, and has sold one youngstre in 5 years. That is the kind of backyard breeder that I feel gives all horse people a bad name. Do not lie about what you have and don't breed to have the most horses, that almost puts you into the leagues of the killer buyers themselves. JMHO.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

If there was a slaughter house, that did it differently, humanely, safe travel, clean kill, food, water, etc, etc, than maybe I feel differently about THAT particular one. But any hat I had read about didn't waste their time or money on being nice to the horse.

Why not humanely euthanize any horse who wouldn't have a fair shot at a good life? Why would you WANT slaughter?

Amen to that, Matt. I wish that was the case for all of our livestock, though, as I really think that we owe the animals that we use at least that much.

As far as why people opt not to euthanize and instead sell at market or for slaughter - well, you do know the answer to that. It COSTS money to euthanize and to dispose of a body, while selling a horse for slaughter brings in money.

Every single person that has ever bred a miniature contributes to the overpopulation problem, whether they want to agree with that or not. Those horses that they breed and sell go on to have more babies of their own. That is not to say I have a problem with responsible breeding, I don't. I want there to be animals out there available for purchasing that people have put a lot of time/thought/research into breeding - I just wish there wasn't such an overpopulation problem in so many areas, of any kind of companion animal, period.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree with Jill- I have always regarded my breeding as a hobby- there is NO way the government would pass up on taxing me if they thought there was any hint that I was making a profit- and, basically, you do actually have to make a profit to be "in it for the money!!"

And that is without charging for my time, and all the sleepless nights, BTW- the flat out money I spend does not equal the money I get- even when I actually do sell afola (I did not want to sell any of my foals this year so they are still here, and I also now have a policy of not selling foals, anyway, so there goes any hope of actually making money.)

So Yes, I can say hand on heart, just as Jill can, that I am not in it for the money, I am in it for the love of the " breed"

 

[maestoso]

I would like to know what it costs people to put breeding into place.

Here, if you have your own stallion, and your own mare, the costs are well below $500.

This includes all the normal shots throughout pregnancy, the vet visit when the foal is born, the ultrasound, and the extra feed the mare needs when she is closer to foaling. For $500, you could also include a foaling kit, test kit, and the feed you will need to give to the foal while it is a suckling.

I wouldnt count the coast of purchase or care for the mare and stud, because you have them regardless of weather you breed or not. I also dont count the care for any uninvolved horses in the herd.

There is always the chance of costly problems that may occur, but they are not the norm.

Assuming things cost a similar amount of money in your area, are you selling your horses for $500 or less? And if not, I am curious as to what other costs you incur solely because of the particular breeding.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Good Grief you are lucky- with those sort of costs I wonder your state is not knee deep in cheap Minis!!!

I keep at present two stallions, both of which I own, one I bred and one I bought for an undisclosed but astronomical price.

I happen to think he is worth it!!

He is fully insured and the insurance alone costs me $1,200.00 a year.

Every show I attend costs me, a friend worked out , at least $200.00 and I obviously try to attend a number of shows- these are calculated in the foal costs as all my broodmares now have been shown to Championship level.

Each time my Vet sets foot on the field it costs me $200.00- that is before he actually does anything.

I cannot afford ultrasound, I cannot even afford the "wee foal" kits

I do not have the Vet for a straightforward foaling, only a problematic one.

I could not possibly afford to have a Vet check my mare after foaling- why would I do that anyway??

A tetanus injection costs $ 50.00 and add the $200.00 call out to that- I do all my own farriery as well.

Wormers are around $10.00-$15.00 each but still quite economic.

I reckon starting at $1,000.00 would be far more realistic for each foal, as we have yet to factor in feed hay, etc.

And if I were to start charging for my time and fuel........ OH!

I have to stop working this out, I'm afraid as

a) my head hurts and

b) I can't afford it!!! (every time I do this I realise I can't afford it!!)

 

[Elsa]

I don't see what banning slaughter in the US has to do with anything. Horses are still being shipped to Mexico and Canada. and I also don't understand how anyone who loves horses can be opposed to slaughter being banned. Have you seen the videos online of horses being slaughtered?? it's about the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. Can you imagine your horse going through that?

A visit earlier this year to a feed lot in Elk Grove, and there were 3 beautiful yearlings in poor shape. Horse killer Manny Phelps bought these 3 yearlings from a lady in Vacaville. Every year the lady breeds her mares. And then she brags on the internet how she raises colorful and expensive babies. But no one ever wants these babies, so she sells them to horse killer Manny Phelps. A new batch of babies will be born soon. And horse killer Manny Phelps will be waiting for the lady in Vacaville to call him... - www.tbfriends.com

 

[maestoso]

We are within a fair distance from the Vet office, so farm calls are generally low.

I guess if you figure it insurance and show costs, then yes, you would be covering your expenses.

BUT, would you still insure your horse if you werent breeding? Would you still show your mares if you werent breeding? If the answers are yes, then those costs are independent of breeding costs.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have never been in a situation where I was showing other peoples stock.

I have always raised and shown my own stock.

I live 11 miles from my Vet- that amount is standard here.

As I said I am surprised there is such a shortage of cheap Minis in your area since it is obviously so cheap to breed them.

 

[Elsa]

If everyone is out to improve the breed, why is there no system implemented that would make quality stallions available to everyone?

I think an organized system similar to that of the warmbloods would be perfect for the mini breed. There would be no queston of what is and what is not good quality because each stallion approved for breeding would need to be tested. Sure, there would still be those breeding random horses, but I think it would cut down the numbers a lot if the resulting stock could not be registered.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is, there are, we do

 

[Shari]

Wow Matt....guess no one in your state worms, gives vaccines or takes care of their mini's.

Because here is what I have spent on Theia.. my last foal. Her costs.. breeding fee for her mother and board, Vet care, worming, vaccines, hoof trims, food, vitamins.. not counting the training I have done.. She is 5 1/2 years old now... I have $3,500 into her.

If for some odd reason I sold her.. I would ask what I put into her at least. If I added what I used to charge for training,, it would add $2,000 to the price.

If I showed her...price would go up still.

If people really kept track to how much it costs breed a properly cared for horse and raise the foal.... most of them are taking a loss.

As for looking at the online videos of Slaughter... don't trust them. Why.. because PETA will do anything,, yes.. anything including killing animals themselves to make their point and shock people. They have been in trouble before doing what they are doing.

When I raised lambs, I took them to the local slaughter house...took a tour to see how they run things. I am a picky person about killing any animal. It was a very clean place and the folks knew what they were doing. There was no stress to the animals other than being in a new place. That will happen to any animal that is moved from their farm. For those that have not had to slaughter animals for food, or had them taken to slaughter, do not have a realistic view of the process. Meat doesn't morph into those clean little packages in the store...they come from an animal.

Another problem this brings up... alot of the Anti slaughter people, love rare animals..you know the kind that are kept in Zoo's. Guess what the Zoo's feed those rare animals? Horse meat... and when I worked at the Oakland Zoo...that is all they could afford to feed, is horse meat.

Rather see an animal used, than abused and left to die slowly.

Anyway... this issue goes round and round.. those that have no animals and get caught up to the romance of saving the world...without knowing everything that goes on with breeding good animals...that one should not lump all breeders in the same boat and so on........

I would recommend to those that are looking through rose colored glasses...thinking forcing things like No slaughter is going to make the world better. Do their research....real research without passing judgement one way or another... not look at the PETA sights on the Net. Before they come to forums...........

 

[Elsa]

The videos I have watched have come from numerous sources, not just one.

I'm not opposed to slaughter, but rather the methods. I grew up with a dad who raised and slaughtered pigs, and when it's a bullet to the brain and a quick process, I'm all for it. It's quite a different story when you see horses being beaten to unconsciousness.

 

[Suzie]

I would like to know what it costs people to put breeding into place.

Here, if you have your own stallion, and your own mare, the costs are well below $500.

This includes all the normal shots throughout pregnancy, the vet visit when the foal is born, the ultrasound, and the extra feed the mare needs when she is closer to foaling. For $500, you could also include a foaling kit, test kit, and the feed you will need to give to the foal while it is a suckling.

I wouldnt count the coast of purchase or care for the mare and stud, because you have them regardless of weather you breed or not. I also dont count the care for any uninvolved horses in the herd.

There is always the chance of costly problems that may occur, but they are not the norm.

Assuming things cost a similar amount of money in your area, are you selling your horses for $500 or less? And if not, I am curious as to what other costs you incur solely because of the particular breeding.

According to my accountant, the costs of our breeding farm was $23,000 last year. That is not counting days of lost sleep, hiring people to help me watch pregnant mares, etc.

We sold all but one of our 8 foals. We sold all our donkey babies and could have sold many more if I had them to sell. But I don't want to breed but 3 a year. That is all I have time to work with each summer and so we don't expand. Same for the foals.

Yes I breed for money. But obviously, since we have horses we do not breed and probably never will, I am in it for more than a profit. Doubt we will ever see any PROFIT. Maybe just less LOSS. I could breed all my horses and make more $$ I suppose, but I try to only breed what I might want to sell and hopefully improve my herd some along. I have buyers interested in my 2008 foals also, so as long as I have people who want my horses, yes I will continue to SELECTIVELY breed them. Not for money PROFIT but for my love of the horses. Yes I have grade horses on my property. I did not breed them and won't breed them, someone else did but they are well trained and therefore have a purpose here.

 

[maestoso]

Shari, dont kid yourself, people take care and do all the right things.

Like I said, IF you own your OWN mare and stallion, there would be no stud fee or board.

You have to trim, vaccinate, train, etc, your mare and stud regardless of weather you breed them or not, so I did not consider those BREEDING expenses. If you decided not to breed, you would STILL have those expenses.

It really is not a big deal. Everyone knows you can't get rich with horses. But if you isolate costs that ONLY incur from breeding(i.e. spring vaccinations and hoof care dont count, you have those costs anyway, hoof trimming isnt anymore expensive for a bred horse than a non bred horse) then your sale price will most likely be much higher than those isolated costs. Will it be enough to buy new car? No way, but enough to put back into the horses and help a bit, i.e. saving you a bit of money.

 

[Jill]

Part of the difference is that the $500 you say you can buy a stallion (quality?) for is about 1/2 of what I'd pay for a good stud's fee. If I were not into breeding, I'd not have had any expenses related to my stallions and broodmares as I'd have no reason to own breeding animals and incur expenses for: purchase, transport, insurance, feed, BUILDING of shelters, deworm, vaccinate, etc. If not for my breeding aspirations, I'd probably just own some awesome geldings.

 

[stormy]

Matt,

If you are a breeder, that is breeding as a business, what you invest in your breeding stock to promote and improve there value is an expense. I purchase the best I can afford, mares and stallions, they cost thousands and not hundreds. I am doing my best to promote performance horses so have many of them gelded and trained to drive before selling. I do not breed all mares every year, try not to produce more than I can find suitable homes for. Expenses include feed, worming, vaccinations, farrier, horse trailer, medical expenses, show and training, halters, leads, fencing and tractor, manure disposal, barn mainteance and repair, foaling monitor, and much more to assure what I have is taken care of as well as can be. It would be nice to actually be in the black money wise but the value is in producing that "ideal" performance horse and watching the new owner enjoy and value what I have so carefully bred and raised. It is a lifes work, an art form, an investment in the future of the breed, not a matter of greedy money grabbing.

 

[maestoso]

I didn't say you could buy a stallion. I said IF yo ALREADY have your OWN stallion and mare.

And IF you have all of those, they can reproduce several times, you wouldn't calculate their purchase price into every single foal because you only purchased them once. And if you do any showing, or any aspect of the sport besides breeding, than you may have already had the stallion and mare regardless of your choice to breed.

There are some owners who ONLY breed. So everything they have, everything they bought, all the money they spend, is solely due to the fact that they breed. And in that case, I would say that they probably don't even break even. But most everyone got into horses because they want a pet, or they like to show or drive, etc etc, and breeding came later.