When an AMHR-B measures over 38" - - then what?

[midnight star stables]

If AMHA and AMHR are going to be "height" breeds,

But what if they aren't going to be just height breeds any more, then what? Some people believe the Minis should become "real" breeds and--like the Shetlands for instance--keep their papers no matter what size they grow to.

people were being honest about heights and vigilant about keeping under size.

Sorry, but if people were truly being honest about heights they would have measured at the withers rather than at the last mane hair! And being vigilant about keeping under size would have been more impressive if they wouldn't have been attempting to achieve their goal by breeding dwarves in so many cases.

Neat ideas.

I could see having a breeding division of horses that went over 38" if they were not allowed to show and their TRUE height was on their papers so that anyone buying future stock from them would not be unaware that there were taller horses in their pedigree. I really think this would be better than having all those "38 inch" horses OR the "34 inch" A size horses that are being kept on the farm and used now. At least then you would have the opportunity to NOT purchase a horse that stands a good chance of going over without you realizing it.

I like the listed height idea!

 

[Horse Feathers]

If AMHA and AMHR are going to be "height" breeds,

But what if they aren't going to be just height breeds any more, then what? Some people believe the Minis should become "real" breeds and--like the Shetlands for instance--keep their papers no matter what size they grow to.

people were being honest about heights and vigilant about keeping under size.

Sorry, but if people were truly being honest about heights they would have measured at the withers rather than at the last mane hair! And being vigilant about keeping under size would have been more impressive if they wouldn't have been attempting to achieve their goal by breeding dwarves in so many cases.

Neat ideas.

I could see having a breeding division of horses that went over 38" if they were not allowed to show and their TRUE height was on their papers so that anyone buying future stock from them would not be unaware that there were taller horses in their pedigree. I really think this would be better than having all those "38 inch" horses OR the "34 inch" A size horses that are being kept on the farm and used now. At least then you would have the opportunity to NOT purchase a horse that stands a good chance of going over without you realizing it.

I like the listed height idea!

Ok they allow over 38" to be used for breeding, would you knowing buy a foal from these horses? What would the value of the offspring be compared to under 38" babies?

 

[Littleum]

Ok they allow over 38" to be used for breeding, would you knowing buy a foal from these horses? What would the value of the offspring be compared to under 38" babies?

Exactly my thoughts.

So breeders get to keep papers on their oversized breeding stock. But... what does this do to the value of their foals? I imagine it would damage it. But... if they kept the regular papers, and just kept the parents out back where no one could see.... wait. That's the problem we currently have!

The honest breeders will continue to be honest, and turn in papers on oversized horses and honestly record heights. The dishonest people will continue to be dishonest and follow the money.

That's the key to the "height problem"- how to make dishonest height reporting hurt the wallet instead of fill it.

 

[Minimor]

Ok they allow over 38" to be used for breeding, would you knowing buy a foal from these horses? What would the value of the offspring be compared to under 38" babies?

Given how many people are hardshipping in 38" Shetlands that are off of taller parents, AND using those hardshipped ponies for breeding as well as showing, I think that yes, there are a good many people that would knowingly buy a foal from those oversize parents. They are even likely to pay good money for them.

 

[Sunny]

"No, I absolutely do not feel that is "Wrong"
If AMHA and AMHR are going to be "height" breeds, than we need to stick to the original rules. In your case, you will have a beautiful grade horse. If we allow 39, then why not 40. If you allow 40, why not 42? IF that's the case why have a registry or association at all? (bolding added)

Many of the gorgeous stallions on the AMHR sweepstakes program are 38". IMO the chances of them producing under 38 are 50% at best. And the risks involved in breeding them to a 34" or smaller mare, again IMO, are too great to try to keep the foals under 38 at maturity. If we create a "Breeding Stock only" category for these horses, isn't that only going to continue the problem of oversize horses? Is that fair to the industry?

I have 3 B horses. In EVERY case the paperwork shows nothing over 34". All are by national champion stallions. None will go over 38, but they are all out of their AMHA papers.

I also have 20 other horses that are under 34", and every foal I've had from my original herd has been under 34". That was when AMHA and AMHR were just starting, and people were being honest about heights and vigilant about keeping under size.

I was at a friends farm and noticed a really big mare. I asked "how tall is she?" and the answer was "she's not 5 yet, I don't have to measure her" ????? THIS IS THE WRONG ANSWER!!!

We need to start cracking down on people breeding horses that don't match the size on their papers. If it takes a rule that EVERY breeding horse needs to be measured by an official to keep people honest, we might have to resort to that. There are some breeds that do that, and there is no question of the quality of the horses being bred.

BRAVO, Dana!! Excellent reply!

I also agree that measuring should have been at the withers right from the start, but I don't see that changing any time soon. Regardless of what part of the body was or is chosen at which to measure, those measurements need to be honest! Perhaps I'm too cynical or skeptical, but anytime I see a horse's measurement as exactly 34" (if AMHA registered) or 38", a red flag goes up in my mind.

 

[Minimor]

Well Sunny, I guess people just can't win. You want people to be honest, but then if someone does state that they have a horse that measures 38"....and yes, stating that honestly, because the horse really is 38"...you and a number of others will assume they are lying, and that the horse is really over 38". Therefore, people are encouraged to advertise their honest-to-goodnes-38" horses and being 37.5"????

 

[~Lisa~]

Well Sunny, I guess people just can't win. You want people to be honest, but then if someone does state that they have a horse that measures 38"....and yes, stating that honestly, because the horse really is 38"...you and a number of others will assume they are lying, and that the horse is really over 38".

LOL I am in that boat I have 2 who are 38- sure someone may be able to get them in at 37.50 or 37.75 but I just call them an honest 38.00

 

[Magic]

Well Sunny, I guess people just can't win. You want people to be honest, but then if someone does state that they have a horse that measures 38"....and yes, stating that honestly, because the horse really is 38"...you and a number of others will assume they are lying, and that the horse is really over 38". Therefore, people are encouraged to advertise their honest-to-goodnes-38" horses and being 37.5"????

I have a horse that is right at 34", and another that is right at 38". I'm not going to lie and say that they are 33 7/8" or 37 7/8" or something so that people aren't suspicious of their heights.

Both of these horses have been shown, so both have been measured by licensed stewards, and they are stood up naturally, no stretching and no tricks. Oh, and neither of them have AMHA papers, lol!

I've had a couple of horses in the past that went over 38"; I sold them to pet homes without papers.

 

[Reble]

What if, but, how come, can you, what happens ???????

This is always going to go around and around and around

AS of today still just a height breed AMHA 34" & under / AMHR 38" & under

They go over you loose your registered papers

ONLY if you are HONEST

 

[Boinky]

I would have no problem buying a mini that was from slightly over parents if it was under. you breed for smaller (how do you think we got mini's to begin with?)... yeah you might get throwbacks but in my opinion if it's a nice horse that can benefit my breeding program and the direction of the miniature horse in general i have absolutely NO problem with them. I don't expect it would truly decrease the value....infact it could raise the value if more people were honest over all the dishonesty and secretes out there now..... as someone else already mentioned there are a lot already being bought from larger parents for good money. A good horse is a good horse... is a good horse.... no matter the height (now granted i don't forsee 48" ponies producing under that's for sure) but if it can and it meets the criteria why not use them for breeding?

course that's just my opinion...

 

[Minimor]

I have a horse that is right at 34", and another that is right at 38". I'm not going to lie and say that they are 33 7/8" or 37 7/8" or something so that people aren't suspicious of their heights.

and I'm not suggesting that you (or anyone) should!
I'm just saying...it's unfortunate that when people are honest about the height of a 34" or 38" horse, there are those who disbelieve just because there are some who do use 38" to describe a horse that is actually taller....and it's also unfortunate that when there are horses that are "too tall" out in the ring showing, so many will others will deny it and make excuses, saying that they only look too tall because they are high headed (or whatever excuse they choose to use, there are usually a few to pick from)

 

[~Amanda~]

Perhaps the "Overs" could be given Breeding Papers on the basis if they can produce foals within the standards? I know that some breeds have something similar. If a mare or stallion is "borderline" acceptable, they allow them a breeding season and then inspect the foals. If the resulting foals are good quality and meet the standards, the mare or stallion is allowed to have "Breeding Papers" to produce registered offspring.

The only problem with this, as we are a "height" breed, you'd have to wait 4 years

Very true. Miniatures have a lot more problems with this kind of thing than other breeds in my opinion.

 

[~Amanda~]

Can anyone explain to me why Miniatures are the only breed that is not measured at the withers? I never understood that or found a reason why it was this way.

I always found it very confusing myself.

 

[midnight star stables]

Can anyone explain to me why Miniatures are the only breed that is not measured at the withers? I never understood that or found a reason why it was this way.
I always found it very confusing myself.

Because it usually makes them a 1/2" to a 2" SMALLER... And it is all about the size

I'd like to see minis as a BREED. I'd like to see "breeding stock" papers. I personal WOULD buy a horse from over over stock, and I think that I have twice. But again, my tallest is 36", maybe 36.5" with heels.

To each there own!

I know of a number of farms, who's horses are over over. Some of these blood lines constantly produce TALL horses, many out growing 38". Other bloodlines stay WELL under 38". I know one over over stallion who has produced mainly A size foals. I know another farm that has two 40-42" shetlands, that when crossed have always produced horses that are 35-36" - And that are doing very well at a National level! But this last breeder is an honest one and those two Shetlands are only ASPC and their foals are hard shipped.

To each their own but to me, I feel it is wrong to "disown" our over over horses!

 

[~Amanda~]

I do agree that it seems a shame. If the horse is a bit over, but still a very correct individual, it seems a shame to lose their good genes when they quite possibly could produce foals that are the proper height.

 

[Baptism]

Interesting discussions. If I trimmed up my mares feet she would probably be a good solid 40 &1/2". This is measured with my aluminum mini horse measure stick with a level built in with the mare standing on my concrete barn aisle.

I prefer smaller sized minis and bought this "38inch" mare only because she is just so gorgeous and her known bloodlines have heights that are 32, 34, 33.75, 37.25, 32, 33, 31.75, 33.5, 30.5, 32, 36 inches. I thought, when bred to the right small stallion I could improve conformation in my smaller size breeding program. And, add some black and buckskin color. I would not have bought her had her height been an honest measurement so I guess that means if there was on "over" breeding division I would not buy offspring from that either seeing even the known divisions are kind of a crap shoot anyway. To me, that is why it is called the "art" of animal breeding.

I don't mind that minis are not measured at the withers. The last mane hair seems to be a compromise or average (difference?) of the withers and the back. Then you would have the debate as to exactly where the withers start.

I am disappointed with the original breeder who kept this mare for 7 years, raised her and bred her, registered her and her offspring and then sold her last year as a 38" B. This Breeder, in my state, asked a nice sum of money and received it, according to the person I bought the mare from.

Aside from the extra few inches, this mare is just wonderful. My whole family loves her. My little minis do too because she is bigger and needs more to eat so they get to steal some scraps! LOL

 

[midnight star stables]

Interesting discussions. If I trimmed up my mares feet she would probably be a good solid 40 &1/2". This is measured with my aluminum mini horse measure stick with a level built in with the mare standing on my concrete barn aisle.
I prefer smaller sized minis and bought this "38inch" mare only because she is just so gorgeous and her known bloodlines have heights that are 32, 34, 33.75, 37.25, 32, 33, 31.75, 33.5, 30.5, 32, 36 inches. I thought, when bred to the right small stallion I could improve conformation in my smaller size breeding program. And, add some black and buckskin color. I would not have bought her had her height been an honest measurement so I guess that means if there was on "over" breeding division I would not buy offspring from that either seeing even the known divisions are kind of a crap shoot anyway. To me, that is why it is called the "art" of animal breeding.

I don't mind that minis are not measured at the withers. The last mane hair seems to be a compromise or average (difference?) of the withers and the back. Then you would have the debate as to exactly where the withers start.

I am disappointed with the original breeder who kept this mare for 7 years, raised her and bred her, registered her and her offspring and then sold her last year as a 38" B. This Breeder, in my state, asked a nice sum of money and received it, according to the person I bought the mare from.

Aside from the extra few inches, this mare is just wonderful. My whole family loves her. My little minis do too because she is bigger and needs more to eat so they get to steal some scraps! LOL

Poor you.

This is why there should, IMO, be a "breeding stock" pedigree/papers.

 

[LaVern]

Here we go again. To me it is all so simple, Once a horse is a registered miniature horse it is a registered miniature horse. What people want to do on their own farms is none of my business. I don't think that anyone should have a right to pull the papers.

I think that the show measuring is the answer to the delema. s

I feel that if we screw those show measurements down tight we will solve lots of problem. If we insist that the stewards measure honestly and are not afraid to protest if we feel they are off we would go along way in bringing back some integrity to the whole industry. And we need that right now.

If there are enough people that want to show 38 plus registered miniature horses go for it- make some classes. Measure very strictly at the shows and let the people decide what is valuable.

 

[susanne]

While not really what it was intended for she can also qualify for the NSPR division of ASPC/AMHR

This sounds like a good alternative, especially since much of the appeal of the big Bs is driving and performance.

This brings up another question:

Can the progeny of an NSPR pony who is under 38 inches be hardshipped into AMHR? Or is that a non-breeding registry?

 

[~Lisa~]

The NSPR was meant to be a non breeding division