Mona
Well-Known Member
PLEASE NOTE: L'il Beginnings International is providing this forum as a gathering place for discussion only. The opinions expressed here are not neccesarily those of L'il Beginnings or it's associates.
Margaret, in another thread, asked if we could do a poll to see what the general concensus is from the members here, so....
How would you have voted?
Recently at the February '08 AMHA National Convention Meeting, a new rule was passed that states effective January 2009, measuring at the last mane hairs will become a thing of the past, and a new method of measuring at the base of the withers will take it's place. There is huge concern by many members.
Below is a rationalization as was posted here on the Lil Beginnings Miniature Horse Forum, by the person that came up with the proposal. This will list the reason(s) given for the changes proposed and accepted. Below that, will be some arguments against this decision. Please read through all of this very carefully, and many times if need be. Fully understand what it says, and what impact it will have on our AMHA Miniature Horses. Then voice your opinion to your Director(s) of your area, and also you are strongly encouraged to send a letter to the AMHA Head Office (Email address is [email protected] and many others can be found on the AMHA web site at www.amha.org) and be sure to ask them to ensure that it is shared amongst ALL Board members. We need to be heard, and we need all the support we can get!
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re: Rule Change - Measuring at the Base of the Withers
To Answer some questions and give you my opinion as to why I proposed this rule change.
My name is Toni Reece - AMHA Director - Region 3, I have been a member for 21 years and have been on the AMHA Board of Directors for half of that time - I own around 200 horses, I Breed, Raise and Show Horses and have a Training Center. So I do feel qualified, and spent a lot of time on this. I support many Miniature Horse Functions, Sales, Shows, Youth, Amateur, etc. I think this is very important that we support each other. So I do understand about horses, and I do this for a living and want what is Best for the Miniature Horse be it AMHA or AMHR. I am a member of both Associations and most my horses are double registered.
To Change a rule it must be submitted before the close of the National Meeting. It takes two years to make a rule change and must go through the proper channels. It was published in Miniature Horse World, and on the web site. I had no one in my region address anything negative about this rule change to me. ( As a matter of fact this rule change was published the year before, but couldn't be voted on because it was not written properly).This rule went to Show Rules and was passed, then it was brought to the Floor. It was discussed in great detail, it was passed by the membership, with a few disagreeing votes. So the majority rules. If you want to change this Rule you must follow the same steps.
Reasons for changing this rule. First a little History - Our Forefathers, the ones that started this 34 inch and under Registry, came to this agreement. As some wanted to measure at the withers, some at the base of the withers, so they came to a medium and measured at the last mane hair. They also couldn't decide on a name and we were almost called the Midget Pony Association. Barbara Ashby was at the National Meeting and she was at the Meeting that decided to measure at the last mane hair, and she supported this rule change.
1. Main Reason - We are breeding Miniature Horses that look like a carbon copy of a Big Horse, they have refinement, withers, and long elegant necks. Old time Miniatures had no withers, some no necks and some no legs, they were just little midgets and conformation didn't mean anything as long as they were small and the smaller the horse, the bigger the price. (Don't anyone take offense to this as I am talking about when this started).We have come so far in the last 10 years that its mind boggling how good our horses have become. We are loosing a lot of these horses because we are measuring at the last mane hair, I feel that the base of the withers is a better place to measure these horses( the ones with pronounced withers and no mane to the base), to keep what we are breeding for in this registry.
2. Another reason choosing base rather then top of withers - I know all other breeds use the top of the withers, why because they like taller (Big) horses. We like the smaller ones and we are different, we are a height registry. I would like to see us a Breed Registry but at this time we are not. As far as European horse, if they want to have AMHA sanctioned Shows they need to measure like we do. I don't think we need to measure they way they do. Measuring at the top of the withers will certainly make our horses taller, I don't think that is what we want. Measuring at the Base will keep the measuring about the same or depending on how high the wither is. may make them a little shorter, but it will allow for the withers.
3. When you go to a Show, the measurer decides where the last mane hair is. It can be dyed, hair sprayed and even has been glued on. This will hopefully stop that. Measuring should be done properly, the first time and everyone should be measured the same. We need measurers with integrity and also desperately need Show Stewards. The base of the withers is very easy to find, if your horses has no withers then what are you worrying about, it will be flat and will measure the same, as the back would be level with no wither.
4. I think this will affect a lot of driving horses and I think you will see a lot more of them. They have withers!
5. As far as changing your horses measurement, it will all fall in place, as this does not go into affect until January 2009 and we will be working this all out. You may have a horse that will need to be reinstated.
6. The members that don't like this rule change. You need to do your homework and come to the National Meeting and express your opinion and vote. Or at least let your Director know how you feel. As we Vote for what we think is in your best interest and the Miniatures Horse.
Thank You,
Respectfully.
Toni Reece
Reece Family Miniatures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arguments against the newly passed By-Law / Rule Change:
1. The reason for the change in #1 as listed above, will encourage and allow some horses currently measuring OVER 34" at the last mane hairs, to be allowed full AMHA registration, contrary to what AMHA has stood for, been dead against since it's inception. They have always claimed fame to be the registry for the "true" Miniature Horse...those measuring 34" and under at the last hairs of the mane ONLY! All horses measuring over 34" will no longer be considered a Miniature Horse, and they ask people to turn in papers on all horses that go over. Now they suddenly have changed the rules! (Please see chart of horses measured by Rod and Heather Hart of Manitoba for comparison heights between the 3 measuring spots, at end of message)
2. It was stated in #2 above that measuring at the top of the withers would make our horses taller. That is not so. The horses may APPEAR taller as recorded on paper, because you will now be measuring at a higher point, but for any new ones, if anything, it would be actually result in breeding a smaller horse over time, because the withers in most cases are taller than the last mane hairs. So if a horse measuring by today's standard measures in at 32" at the last mane hairs, he would likely measure upwards of 32.5"-33" or maybe even more at the top of the withers, and may often measure LESS than the last mane hairs if measured to the BASE of the withers, so by measuring at the base, this would allow taller horses (by today's standards) to "sneak in" to our 34" and under registry as we know it today.
3. It is stated in #3 above that the mane can be altered, and that is true, however, it is up to stewards and show officials to ensure participants are measuring honestly and to the rules as set forth by the association. Failure to do so should result in punishment or disqualification of the horse. In other words, START ENFORCING RULES and stop blaming it on the method that the measurement is taken. If people would be disciplined for their actions, they may actually stop doing it!
4. There are already many beautiful driving horses in the AMHA that DO qualify with the 34" and under measurement as taken at the last mane hairs. There is no need to bring in taller ones. There will always be some with higher manes, lower manes, higher withers, lower wither as well as varying areas of the base of the withers.
5. This "falling in place" theory is something that should have been thoroughly thought out and addressed long before it ever went to vote, let alone accepted and passed as a by-law and rule change! If the proper channels were followed as we are often told we must when submitting rule change proposals, then this never should have passed, because there are no definitive answers to many questions...questions such as:
- Now that the height will be incorrect on probably 50% or more of all currently registered AMHA horses, does AMHA plan to pay the large price of reissuing new paperwork to all of the horses heights that will measure differently and appear to be incorrect as they are now?
- Will AMHA now reinstate AMHA papers free of charge on the many horses papers that were previously handed in by their honest owners once their horses went over, and will now measure in at the new "base of withers" measurement?
- Will AMHA charge reinstatement fees for reinstating the horses once again eligible once new rule comes into effect?
- Will AMHA charge hardship fees and make horses once again eligible once new rule comes into effect to go through the regular hardship process?
- Or, will AMHA just treat it like a new law being passed and say tough beans to all of those that lost their papers due to going over height in the past?
- None of these questions were answered. We need to DEMAND answers to these types of questions before a rule is ever voted on, let alone accepted! Falling into place is not an answer, nor an option.
- As for that magical "spot" that is "no mistaking" for measuring the base of the withers, even the professionals cannot decide on exactly where (in between which vertebrae) this falls! So how will the general membership be able to figure it out?
This vote passed by a 2/3 majority vote. With only 90 some people voting, and only 60 some that voted FOR this, is a very poor cross section of the thousands of actual AMHA members!!
6. This is where YOU come in! PLEASE voice your concerns and be sure your voice is heard!
The changing of the area/method measured will not stop cheating, and the measuring at the base of the withers will only bring in taller than 34" horses (as currently measured) into our 34" and under association. Perhaps if the measurement spot/method needs be changed, we should seriously consider measuring at the top of the withers with a grandfathering clause put in place to allow those horses already registered to keep their papers. We would at least then be measuring using the same means as every other equine breed organization in the world. To change the measuring from the last mane hairs to the base of the withers would make no sense at all, and would probably be better left at the last mane hairs if not changed to the top of the withers, if a change is needed at all.
This brings us to another issue that can be touched on quickly. It is VERY important to allow ALL members in good standing to have one vote each. Proposals are in the works for this as well, but again, your support is needed...you need to have your voices heard! You need to contact AMHA and it's BOD and let them ALL know what you want! The louder we are, perhaps the more we will be heard, providing other criteria is met going through the proper channels. It is not fair to have less than 100 members, only those able to attend the meeting, to set rules that will govern all of AMHA just because we cannot all be there to vote.
Margaret, in another thread, asked if we could do a poll to see what the general concensus is from the members here, so....
How would you have voted?
Recently at the February '08 AMHA National Convention Meeting, a new rule was passed that states effective January 2009, measuring at the last mane hairs will become a thing of the past, and a new method of measuring at the base of the withers will take it's place. There is huge concern by many members.
Below is a rationalization as was posted here on the Lil Beginnings Miniature Horse Forum, by the person that came up with the proposal. This will list the reason(s) given for the changes proposed and accepted. Below that, will be some arguments against this decision. Please read through all of this very carefully, and many times if need be. Fully understand what it says, and what impact it will have on our AMHA Miniature Horses. Then voice your opinion to your Director(s) of your area, and also you are strongly encouraged to send a letter to the AMHA Head Office (Email address is [email protected] and many others can be found on the AMHA web site at www.amha.org) and be sure to ask them to ensure that it is shared amongst ALL Board members. We need to be heard, and we need all the support we can get!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: Rule Change - Measuring at the Base of the Withers
To Answer some questions and give you my opinion as to why I proposed this rule change.
My name is Toni Reece - AMHA Director - Region 3, I have been a member for 21 years and have been on the AMHA Board of Directors for half of that time - I own around 200 horses, I Breed, Raise and Show Horses and have a Training Center. So I do feel qualified, and spent a lot of time on this. I support many Miniature Horse Functions, Sales, Shows, Youth, Amateur, etc. I think this is very important that we support each other. So I do understand about horses, and I do this for a living and want what is Best for the Miniature Horse be it AMHA or AMHR. I am a member of both Associations and most my horses are double registered.
To Change a rule it must be submitted before the close of the National Meeting. It takes two years to make a rule change and must go through the proper channels. It was published in Miniature Horse World, and on the web site. I had no one in my region address anything negative about this rule change to me. ( As a matter of fact this rule change was published the year before, but couldn't be voted on because it was not written properly).This rule went to Show Rules and was passed, then it was brought to the Floor. It was discussed in great detail, it was passed by the membership, with a few disagreeing votes. So the majority rules. If you want to change this Rule you must follow the same steps.
Reasons for changing this rule. First a little History - Our Forefathers, the ones that started this 34 inch and under Registry, came to this agreement. As some wanted to measure at the withers, some at the base of the withers, so they came to a medium and measured at the last mane hair. They also couldn't decide on a name and we were almost called the Midget Pony Association. Barbara Ashby was at the National Meeting and she was at the Meeting that decided to measure at the last mane hair, and she supported this rule change.
1. Main Reason - We are breeding Miniature Horses that look like a carbon copy of a Big Horse, they have refinement, withers, and long elegant necks. Old time Miniatures had no withers, some no necks and some no legs, they were just little midgets and conformation didn't mean anything as long as they were small and the smaller the horse, the bigger the price. (Don't anyone take offense to this as I am talking about when this started).We have come so far in the last 10 years that its mind boggling how good our horses have become. We are loosing a lot of these horses because we are measuring at the last mane hair, I feel that the base of the withers is a better place to measure these horses( the ones with pronounced withers and no mane to the base), to keep what we are breeding for in this registry.
2. Another reason choosing base rather then top of withers - I know all other breeds use the top of the withers, why because they like taller (Big) horses. We like the smaller ones and we are different, we are a height registry. I would like to see us a Breed Registry but at this time we are not. As far as European horse, if they want to have AMHA sanctioned Shows they need to measure like we do. I don't think we need to measure they way they do. Measuring at the top of the withers will certainly make our horses taller, I don't think that is what we want. Measuring at the Base will keep the measuring about the same or depending on how high the wither is. may make them a little shorter, but it will allow for the withers.
3. When you go to a Show, the measurer decides where the last mane hair is. It can be dyed, hair sprayed and even has been glued on. This will hopefully stop that. Measuring should be done properly, the first time and everyone should be measured the same. We need measurers with integrity and also desperately need Show Stewards. The base of the withers is very easy to find, if your horses has no withers then what are you worrying about, it will be flat and will measure the same, as the back would be level with no wither.
4. I think this will affect a lot of driving horses and I think you will see a lot more of them. They have withers!
5. As far as changing your horses measurement, it will all fall in place, as this does not go into affect until January 2009 and we will be working this all out. You may have a horse that will need to be reinstated.
6. The members that don't like this rule change. You need to do your homework and come to the National Meeting and express your opinion and vote. Or at least let your Director know how you feel. As we Vote for what we think is in your best interest and the Miniatures Horse.
Thank You,
Respectfully.
Toni Reece
Reece Family Miniatures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arguments against the newly passed By-Law / Rule Change:
1. The reason for the change in #1 as listed above, will encourage and allow some horses currently measuring OVER 34" at the last mane hairs, to be allowed full AMHA registration, contrary to what AMHA has stood for, been dead against since it's inception. They have always claimed fame to be the registry for the "true" Miniature Horse...those measuring 34" and under at the last hairs of the mane ONLY! All horses measuring over 34" will no longer be considered a Miniature Horse, and they ask people to turn in papers on all horses that go over. Now they suddenly have changed the rules! (Please see chart of horses measured by Rod and Heather Hart of Manitoba for comparison heights between the 3 measuring spots, at end of message)
2. It was stated in #2 above that measuring at the top of the withers would make our horses taller. That is not so. The horses may APPEAR taller as recorded on paper, because you will now be measuring at a higher point, but for any new ones, if anything, it would be actually result in breeding a smaller horse over time, because the withers in most cases are taller than the last mane hairs. So if a horse measuring by today's standard measures in at 32" at the last mane hairs, he would likely measure upwards of 32.5"-33" or maybe even more at the top of the withers, and may often measure LESS than the last mane hairs if measured to the BASE of the withers, so by measuring at the base, this would allow taller horses (by today's standards) to "sneak in" to our 34" and under registry as we know it today.
3. It is stated in #3 above that the mane can be altered, and that is true, however, it is up to stewards and show officials to ensure participants are measuring honestly and to the rules as set forth by the association. Failure to do so should result in punishment or disqualification of the horse. In other words, START ENFORCING RULES and stop blaming it on the method that the measurement is taken. If people would be disciplined for their actions, they may actually stop doing it!
4. There are already many beautiful driving horses in the AMHA that DO qualify with the 34" and under measurement as taken at the last mane hairs. There is no need to bring in taller ones. There will always be some with higher manes, lower manes, higher withers, lower wither as well as varying areas of the base of the withers.
5. This "falling in place" theory is something that should have been thoroughly thought out and addressed long before it ever went to vote, let alone accepted and passed as a by-law and rule change! If the proper channels were followed as we are often told we must when submitting rule change proposals, then this never should have passed, because there are no definitive answers to many questions...questions such as:
- Now that the height will be incorrect on probably 50% or more of all currently registered AMHA horses, does AMHA plan to pay the large price of reissuing new paperwork to all of the horses heights that will measure differently and appear to be incorrect as they are now?
- Will AMHA now reinstate AMHA papers free of charge on the many horses papers that were previously handed in by their honest owners once their horses went over, and will now measure in at the new "base of withers" measurement?
- Will AMHA charge reinstatement fees for reinstating the horses once again eligible once new rule comes into effect?
- Will AMHA charge hardship fees and make horses once again eligible once new rule comes into effect to go through the regular hardship process?
- Or, will AMHA just treat it like a new law being passed and say tough beans to all of those that lost their papers due to going over height in the past?
- None of these questions were answered. We need to DEMAND answers to these types of questions before a rule is ever voted on, let alone accepted! Falling into place is not an answer, nor an option.
- As for that magical "spot" that is "no mistaking" for measuring the base of the withers, even the professionals cannot decide on exactly where (in between which vertebrae) this falls! So how will the general membership be able to figure it out?
This vote passed by a 2/3 majority vote. With only 90 some people voting, and only 60 some that voted FOR this, is a very poor cross section of the thousands of actual AMHA members!!
6. This is where YOU come in! PLEASE voice your concerns and be sure your voice is heard!
The changing of the area/method measured will not stop cheating, and the measuring at the base of the withers will only bring in taller than 34" horses (as currently measured) into our 34" and under association. Perhaps if the measurement spot/method needs be changed, we should seriously consider measuring at the top of the withers with a grandfathering clause put in place to allow those horses already registered to keep their papers. We would at least then be measuring using the same means as every other equine breed organization in the world. To change the measuring from the last mane hairs to the base of the withers would make no sense at all, and would probably be better left at the last mane hairs if not changed to the top of the withers, if a change is needed at all.
This brings us to another issue that can be touched on quickly. It is VERY important to allow ALL members in good standing to have one vote each. Proposals are in the works for this as well, but again, your support is needed...you need to have your voices heard! You need to contact AMHA and it's BOD and let them ALL know what you want! The louder we are, perhaps the more we will be heard, providing other criteria is met going through the proper channels. It is not fair to have less than 100 members, only those able to attend the meeting, to set rules that will govern all of AMHA just because we cannot all be there to vote.
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