Thinking we have it backwards

[mshasta88]

The closer I get to finishing my pre vet degree and starting vet school, the more I start wondering why horse breeders put so much more time and attention into their stallions. We can see this in the show ring and even in the pictures that people post of facebook and websites. While it is very important for both stallion and mare in a breeding program to be quality, I’m starting think that we have our priorities backwards. Mares seem to be the most important key in improving the breed. So before people disagree, let me break it down.

Sense very little is still not know about the inheritance of conformational qualities please try consider that this is why I’m writing this. We have all seen throughout the years, people breeding because they want to breed or even people breeding non quality mares to extremely good quality stallions.

Here is why I think this is a problem.

During spermatogenesis in a male, recombination in meiosis will bring rise to four sperm; however, recombination can never excide 50% of genes exchanged which still gives rise to large amounts of variation in the sperm. This may also decrease the chance of producing desired traits especially if they are traits independent of each other. During oocytogenesis in a mare, recombination happens, but half of the potential gametes are lost resulting in only 2 ova. On top of all of this the stallion can produce sperm until the day he dies but the mare is limited to the amount of ovum produced and the amount of offspring produced to perpetuate the species.

So if you only get 2 chances to every 4 chance to get the combination right, wouldn’t you want the most top quality mares in your herd? And would it make more sense to spend more time with mares in the show ring and give them more credit for producing champion offspring?

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

Agree. All breeding animals should have a job (and do it well). Having a uterus is not a job lol Granted, I don't always mean showing. Take full sized AQHA and APHA halter horses for example. I wouldn't take a multiple world champ halter horse if it I was paid to take it. Just because they are winning means nothing about how they are built or whether they can do something other than just stand there.

It saddens me that no one really has good pictures their mares on their sites. They are always shot at a distance, usually in winter woolies and are hardly ever in shape. It makes it so hard to tell how they are built!

 

[disneyhorse]

I don't think anyone is going to refute this.

However, in breeding operations a farm may have 30 mares selected to cross to their one stallion, so a mare in that case is only contributing to one foal, whereas the stallion is contributing to thirty foals for that year.

So emphasis is on promoting the stallion, who will have his name on far more foals than the mares will. It's simply numbers.

 

[mshasta88]

I don't think anyone is going to refute this.

However, in breeding operations a farm may have 30 mares selected to cross to their one stallion, so a mare in that case is only contributing to one foal, whereas the stallion is contributing to thirty foals for that year.

So emphasis is on promoting the stallion, who will have his name on far more foals than the mares will. It's simply numbers.

Yes, but that situation suggests quantity over quality unless all the mares were of equal to or better than the quality of the stallion.

 

And like I said before, variation is greater in the sperm than the ovum, so it really is starting to make little sense to me why people keep doing this.

 

[Charlotte]

This subject has always been something I question too. The best advice I have ever heard for success in horse breeding came from a Quarter Horse breeder back in the early 1970s.

When asked the question "How do you become a successful horse breeder?"

His answer was....."Find the best stallion you can and breed him to better mares".

 

[Leeana]

Basically, just breed the best horse or pony that you can.

 

[mshasta88]

Basically, just breed the best horse or pony that you can.

Further more (like Charlotte said) breed the best stallion to an even better mare.

 

[Riverrose28]

I totally agree with you, we bought a colt with a great pedigree, promoted him, got many Championships and evern Champion of Champions, his get was also shown and earned Championships, but the mares he was bred to were steller. Case in point, we also have two other stallions, one was shown and did very well in the show ring, the other was never shown, guess which one buyers keep calling for offspring? The one that was never shown. Seems like when bred to mares that were shown this stallions get excells in the driving arena, and he was never shown or promoted, but the mares are great. Yes, I've taken chances on mares that were never shown, but had a good pedigree and great conformation and when bred to a perticular stallion produced great offspring. I believe that the stallion is only part of the equation, the mares must be the better part of any breeding program. SAdly in the mini horse world the stallion is the one that is promoted the most, and I guess I'm just as guilty as anyone, as I don't have pictures of my broodmares on my web-site, but my stallion is the mane character.

 

[HGFarm]

I totally agree and many people really overlook their mares. You must have quality on both sides! Even with good quality it's still a crap shoot, haha

 

[mshasta88]

I totally agree and many people really overlook their mares. You must have quality on both sides! Even with good quality it's still a crap shoot, haha

Yes it is Laurie haha, hopefully some day someone with the time and money will try to catalog conformational genes so we don't have a crap shoot any more, but until then, I believe that this theory is the best to stick to in order to improve the breed.



Maybe some of us who have had several generations of miniature horses can start to see what traits where passed on through the generations so we can see what traits are dominate and recessive.

 

[Lewella]

Each foal gets 32 of its choromosomes from its sire, and 32 from its dam. Recombination only has 64 chromosomes or 32 pair to work with. Each pair will swap some genetic material during recombination. Yes, recombination happens more during spermatogenesis than oocytogenesis but there is still the same amount of genetic material available. That is why so many breeders prefer to use animals for breeding who are line bred. Line breeding increases the chances the stallion (or mare) will be homozygous for desireable traits making the amount of recombination less meaningful and produce more consistent.

The mare is important - some traits are carried on the 70% larger X chromosome. Thoroughbred breeders will tell you the tail female line is the most important part of a pedigree. Why? Beause heart size appears to be determined by a gene on the X chromosome and a stallion gets his X chromosome from his dam. A larger heart means more blood flow which means more oxygen is traveling around the body which means a horse can theoretically run longer distances.

Genetics are why it is SOOOO important to look at a horse's parents and grandparents when making the decision to breed.

 

[mshasta88]

Each foal gets 32 of its choromosomes from its sire, and 32 from its dam. Recombination only has 64 chromosomes or 32 pair to work with. Each pair will swap some genetic material during recombination. Yes, recombination happens more during spermatogenesis than oocytogenesis but there is still the same amount of genetic material available. That is why so many breeders prefer to use animals for breeding who are line bred. Line breeding increases the chances the stallion (or mare) will be homozygous for desireable traits making the amount of recombination less meaningful and produce more consistent.

The mare is important - some traits are carried on the 70% larger X chromosome. Thoroughbred breeders will tell you the tail female line is the most important part of a pedigree. Why? Beause heart size appears to be determined by a gene on the X chromosome and a stallion gets his X chromosome from his dam. A larger heart means more blood flow which means more oxygen is traveling around the body which means a horse can theoretically run longer distances.

Genetics are why it is SOOOO important to look at a horse's parents and grandparents when making the decision to breed.

Thanks for making this sound more simple

What is your degree in Lewella I would love more insite?

 

[Riverdance]

I have said this over and over again. In the large horse world, we always said that the mare was 70% of the foal. I have always strived to keep the best mares. In cutting back , I have sold off good mares, but have kept better ones, with the traits that I want in a future horse. The mares I have kept are very strong in certain traits and I recently bought a stallion who I feel will go very well with those mares. So, I bought my stallion for my mares, not the other way around like so many breeders do. If you look at a foal and then look at it's dam, often you will see the dam in the foal, not the other way around.

 

[Lizzie]

A long time ago, I wrote the following, on my own Gypsy Horse forum. This, when we were discussing the importance of mares.

I've been doing a bit of thinking and research again, on breeding, pedigree knowledge, inheritance etc. We have discussed here in the past, how incredibly important good mares are to a breeding programme, but I'm carrying this a little bit further here.

 

For generations, breeders of all kinds of animals, have often relied upon the knowledge of the male, when considering breeding. ie; His quality, get, pedigree etc. Many in the past, bred mares of poor or iffy quality, to superior stallions, with the thought that he was bound to produce always, quality offspring. Modern thinking and knowledge however, has told us that the mare used, is just as important as the sire. In some ways, even much more important.

 

Geneticists tell us that the fact is, that certain qualities inherited from DNA on the x-chromosome can ONLY be inherited from a mare. So down the line, the maternal granddam, grandsire and their quality, cannot and should not, be ignored.

 

We all know, that very horse has 2 chromosomes that determine gender.

 

A mare has two X-chromosomes, therefore a female.

 

A stallion (XY) has one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome, therefore a male. When a foal is conceived, if the Y-chromosome fertilizes the egg, the foal will be male (XY) because it will then have an "X" from the dam and a "Y" from the sire.

 

If the sperm fertilizing the egg carries the stallion's X-chromosome, the resulting foal will be female - XX.

 

A mare, contributes one of her two X-chromosomes to her foals, both male and female but when a stallion gives an "X" to his daughters, it is the X-chromosome he inherited from his own dam.

 

His sons NEVER receive his X-chromosome, because he has given them (obviously) his Y-chromosome instead. However, his sons DO receive an X-chromosome - one of the X-chromosomes contributed by their dam.

 

And this gets even more interesting. One of those would have been inherited via the dam's dam, and the other came down the "X-trail" from her sire's dam.

 

Geneticists have determined that certain genetic material is carried on the X-chromosome, including that for the large heart, and intelligence. Most probably, there are many other genes passed down on the X-chromosome, many of which we probably don't even know about at the moment.

 

So now, understanding that certain superior qualities can ONLY be inherited from a mare, her expressed qualities and that of the maternal granddam and grandsire suddenly become incredibly import.

Lizzie

 

[Magic]

I've always believed that in breeding the quality of the mare is at least as important as the quality of the stallion. I've also shown mares, not just in their younger years but also after they've had foals. When a broodmare can go out and win against not only younger mares in halter, but also stallions and geldings in jumping, liberty, and driving, then you know you've got a good horse. Many of my mares have done this, not just on a local level but at Area shows and at Nationals too.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

I agree that the mare is just as or more important than the stallion and I feel we are seeing more and more breeders realizing that as well and changing breeding programs. We try to get good pictures of our mares but the hardest ones are those that were purchased in foal and already out of shape, I think one reason that you dont see as good of pictures of mares is that it is really hard to get broodmares back into condition for "showy" looking pictures if they are older mares that have had lots of foals. I do agree that stallions are promoted more simply due to the ability to produce multiple foals a year but that doesnt mean that the quality of the mares is necessarily less. We have shown plenty of mares/broodmares as well and done quite well with them, however with that said, show record or lack of show record is the last thing I look at when purchasing a mare or stallion, sure a HOF or National title is exciting to have on there but I have also seen plenty of horses win that I would never own so I simply judge the horse on its own qualities not that of their show record. I also agree with those that said that even two quality horses may not always produce quality!

 

[jandjmc]

It sounds clear that mares contribute as much, and most probably more, genetically than stallions to the qualities of their foals. Another reason that mares contribute more is the uterine environment and early learning. The mare determines (in most cases) all of the early environmental influences which affect personality, nutrition, behavior, hardiness, etc. These things in turn determine so much of the trainability and ultimately the success of many equines. (Nature vs Nurture)

 

[CMC]

Thank you so much for this post and the wonderful explanation of genetics. I find them fascinating! We as many others worked very hard in acquiring (what we think) excellent mares and find in them as much pride as in the stallions. We have professional photos of our stallions and take our own photos of mares. It is still a learning process but we try to present our girls to the best of our ability.

 

[LaVern]

While I don't have a clue to all the stuff you guys said, x's and y's a chomes(Holy Mackeral), I agree that it is all about the moms. I have spent half my life trying to breed my broodmare band. Most of the offspring would be at least 3/4,+ blood siblings without line breeding. If I can just find the right cross for them.

Example- I like full sisters and half sisters that are similar in the type I like, to be bred to the same stallion year after if I like the results. Their daughters that are similar in that type I like to be bred to same stallion. On and on until I get 99%+blood siblings.

 

[Joanne]

Thank you for this thread. I appreciate all the reminders.

I agree that many website have great stallion photos, but the mares photos are either absent, "photos coming", or of poor quality. It is certainly hard to decide if I want to buy the mares or their foals based on their photos. The mares are 50% of the genetics and of equal value. Good photos are important. And the better farms know that and do provide equal time for their mares. on their Brood Mares page.

We strive to get the best photos possible of our sires and dams, as well as the sale horses and foals. And to include as much information as to their pedigree and genetic testing.

IF the stallion is breeding quaility (another thread ?), he is certainly going to have far more foals then any mare. So his selection to complement the mares is important and to move your breeding program forward. But if you buy poor quality mares to put with him, you are not going to benefit from his quality traits.

No breeding program should exist unless you are trying to better the breed quality. Period.