Thinking we have it backwards

[mshasta88]

No breeding program should exist unless you are trying to better the breed quality. Period.

Very true! I would have never considered starting to line breed until after I posted this thread. Yes it needs to be done with caution but I think it is an amazing to when trying tool improve the breed.

 

[kay56649]

I think I'd rather breed my (if you want to call her, even though I love her) non quality mare to a hight quality stallion rather than to a non quality stallion. At least the foal could have one good side, ha ha

 

[Jill]

I've always felt that you shouldn't breed two horses if you would not be happy with an exact duplicate of who you feel is the lesser of the match. I think that's a good rule of thumb, especially when you're making something that could be around for 30 or more years.

 

[targetsmom]

Yep, I agree with Jill about not breeding unless you would be very happy with an exact copy of EITHER one of the breeding pair. Genetics has way too much chance involved although as pointed out, you do reduce the amount of chance with line breeding.

We actually started out in breeding by selecting the best pinto mares we could find (with no Appaloosa blood) and then selected our stallion. We were pretty picky and after years of terrible luck, I think our first live foal (Max) proved that our strategy worked. We also tried to select mares that were produced using this same strategy - that is, the DAM of the mares we selected was as important as the sire. For example, our first filly, Aloha Acres Fashion By Magic, is a daughter of FWF Blue Boys Magic Man (several times World Champion and producer of several World Champions) and our filly's dam had produced a Res. National Champion, a National Top Ten and a Res National Champion Producer. And we haven't even bred our mare yet, at the age of 8!!

 

[PaintNminis]

This is Seriously a Excellent Topic

I agree that Mares are Very Imported, I Once Found a Daughter of a Well Known Multiple World Grand Champion Stallion, & She was Awful, I couldn't believe She was Sired by Him . That Filly Really got me thinking that even the Nicest of Stallions Can't Correct a Poor Mare. They aren't Miracle Workers

I think it is also really Important When Buying Breeding Stock either Mares or Stallions if you don't LOVE Both the Sire and Dam, Don't do it. I learned that the Hard Way. If I didn't just Love the Mare they were out of, I never liked the Offspring that jumped off the Trailer lol

My new Stallion was Picked out because I thought he would make an Excellent Cross on my Mares, not the Other Way Around. I feel My Mares have Excellent Conformation, Good Pedigrees, Beautiful Heads & Right up with Conformation is Great Personalities. I am pretty Bad though I need to get more Pictures lol!

 

[kay56649]

Well, if you have the opportunity to pick both the mare and stallion, that for sure is the best way to go, but when you have a mare that you love (I love my mini mare's personality), then I think you should breed them with a good quality stallion (only if the mare has decent confirmation)!

 

[Riverrose28]

You guys are right on when it comes to looking back at the mares that produced your breeding mares. I feel that somtimes it can skip down a generation, lets just say I have a mare that I feel is really good conformation wise, I keep her fillies and then breed them, well the resulting foals certainly reflect the grand dam, as well as the grand sire.

 

[ruffian]

Of course I want the best horses I can afford. So I buy the best horses I can afford. A stallion is one horse, that can produce many. A mare can produce maybe one a year. So while scientifically it may sound like mares should be the priority, in reality the stallion, which can produce multiple a year, IMO is the priority. Get or use the best stallion I can get. That doesn't mean I breed him to anything with a uterus, but to the best I can afford. Breeding a really good mare to a really good stallion doesn't mean that you're going to have a really good foal. Secretariat was the offspring of Somethingroyal and Bold Ruler. He was by far the best foal either ever produced, and both had been bred to the finest quality horses, and most offspring was mediocre at best, with some exceptions.

Breeding horses is a crapshoot. Some times it' hits, some times it doesn't, and while scientifically it SHOULD work doesn't mean it WILL work. I've been doing this for 30 years, and have had some really good luck, and some not.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Of course the stallion is important but so much emphasis is on the stallion it seems like that the mare gets over looked. There are breeders out there that will try to find the best stallion that they can afford but will buy cheaper average to below average mares but its ok because the stallion is so nice. I'm sorry but its not going to work that way. I rather have 1 awesome foal then 10 average foals. Not only does it not help the market but it doesn't help make the breed itself better. Also comments like oh she has such a great personality or she will throw some awesome color doesn't give a good reason to me that that mare deserves to be bred. I had a mare with a great personality and she threw foals that did not have that same personality, and IMO no one should breed just for color. I have also heard about the mares contribute 70% of the foal and if more breeders think like that perhaps more better quality foals will be produced, and I'm not saying over look the stallion. I think the quality of the miniature horse is improving every year and even local shows there are tough competition and thats great but there are still breeders out there that still don't get breed for quality not quantity.

My feeling is this I now have a mare again and haven't had a mare on the place for a few years. Yes I can breed her but I rather show her and see what she can do. If I decide to breed her I'll send her off to get bred to a awesome stallion, I probably won't own a stallion again and it seems like every farm must own a stallion when it comes to the miniature horse business. So there are plenty of stallions to choose from. But I'm still not 100% convinced with her yet and we'll see how she does next year. I'm going to be very picky but I can only afford so much which is why I'm not going to gamble.

 

[Lizzie]

I think I'd rather breed my (if you want to call her, even though I love her) non quality mare to a hight quality stallion rather than to a non quality stallion. At least the foal could have one good side, ha ha

But that is just the problem. Old-timers used to think that a good stallion could fix anything, and often bred many iffy mares to good stallions. The outcome was, that very few turned out well and the rest were just as awful as their dams.

Well, if you have the opportunity to pick both the mare and stallion, that for sure is the best way to go, but when you have a mare that you love (I love my mini mare's personality), then I think you should breed them with a good quality stallion (only if the mare has decent confirmation)!

Loving a mare, is never the reason to breed, although we see it done all the time. Neither is breeding a mare or stallion, because they happen to have a wonderful personality. Everything must be considered. Spot-on conformation, temperament, faults they might have in common, pedigree and even colour, if one is breeding for specific colours.

Lizzie

 

[Minimor]

Lizzie is right--just because someone has a mare they love is no reason to breed that mare. Some mares simply shouldn't be bred--IMO that's breeding "just because" one has a mare. I've got a number of mares here that have not been bred, and will not be bred as long as they are mine. Some I won't breed because they aren't what I want for breeding, others would be worth breeding if I were wanting broodmares, but that isn't why I have those particular mares. If I had just one mare and she wasn't breeding quality in other than personality I wouldn't breed her--if I wanted a foal I would go & buy one.

There are many Minis who are sadly lacking in their mare lines--I have encountered a number who have some great breeding on the male lines, but their mare lines are very weak. So, you've got a nice stallion whose sire is a well respected show horse. His dam is an average mare who is in turn sired by a big name stallion and out of a plain mare. Your stallion's sire is by another big name stallion--but his dam is a mediocre little mare off average parents...truly, I have seen this pedigree in a number of horses. There might be 3 or 4 big name stallions on the papers, but the mares are all mediocre. Some were perhaps bred because they had a well known sire, others I'm sure were bred simply because they were a mare and could be bred. This sort of pedigree is one reason why so many Miniatures do not breed true--in spite of several good stallions in the pedigree, with several poor mares in that pedigree there is a very good chance that any resulting foal will end up resembling one of those lesser mares.

People talk about buying the best they can find (or afford)--this is okay, except for some people the best that they find still are not worthy of being bred. Some would rather have 4 or 5 instead of just one good mare. Like Jamie said--better to have 1 awesome foal than 10 average ones--but so many people still do not see it that way

 

[Jill]

I do want to say that I think the people on LB, in large part, have it all over the average "mini person". People who come here do so because they really care about their horses and the breed.

 

[Lizzie]

There are many Minis who are sadly lacking in their mare lines--I have encountered a number who have some great breeding on the male lines, but their mare lines are very weak. So, you've got a nice stallion whose sire is a well respected show horse. His dam is an average mare who is in turn sired by a big name stallion and out of a plain mare. Your stallion's sire is by another big name stallion--but his dam is a mediocre little mare off average parents...truly, I have seen this pedigree in a number of horses. There might be 3 or 4 big name stallions on the papers, but the mares are all mediocre. Some were perhaps bred because they had a well known sire, others I'm sure were bred simply because they were a mare and could be bred. This sort of pedigree is one reason why so many Miniatures do not breed true--in spite of several good stallions in the pedigree, with several poor mares in that pedigree there is a very good chance that any resulting foal will end up resembling one of those lesser mares.

I am so glad you brought this up. I have always been a pedigree hound, yet when asking about a pedigree, the owner has often told me they don't know or cannot remember, or sometimes even, that pedigrees don't matter. Pedigrees absolutely matter and that's a fact. The more you know about your horse's pedigree, the more you know about how you might or should, breed. Certainly, a few big names way back in later generations, don't mean a fig, except it's fun to know they were there. But the first few generations can tell one a whole lot about quality/conformation. It is obviously not always possible, to discover a lot about some or many, horses in a pedigree, but it pays to try to discover what one can about them.

That said, it does help to do one's research as far back as possible and to know about those horses listed. I can think of some big-name horses in several breeds, who now do in fact, appear way back in pedigrees. These horses were well known for carrying and passing on, some dreadful health and genetic issues, which we still see cropping up today.

So pedigrees are important. I see so many people purchasing a mare and immediately think of breeding her. Much of the time, they've only been in the breed for five minutes and I can tell, they've done little or no real homework on the breed, before jumping in and setting themselves up as breeders. I'm sure we've all seen on some all-breed forums, someone posts a picture of their mare and pictures of a couple of stallions. They ask which the membership feels is the best stallion for their mare. When asked if the mare and/or stallion have been tested for Frame, HYPP or Herda for example, they ask, "What is that?" They don't even know these problems exist in their breed and have obviously done no research, yet they are becoming 'breeders'. Makes my head spin.

Lizzie

 

[mshasta88]

I really love how hot this topic has become. I just hope that the new members are reading this so the can learn all they can on how to do things the correct way.