Dwarves & Breeders/Owners

[shelia]

Great post!!! You are very mature-way beyond your years.I have been in Minis since the mid 1980s.Long enough to vist first hand a very well known big name farm where I saw dwarf stallions in the breeding shed with mares.It was my first experience seeing a dwarf and they were so bad I thought I was going to vomit.Owner told me they were kept in there for kids to play with-Yeah and I just fell off the turnip truck.Look at some of the pedigrees-Bond Tiny Tim,Bond Bulldog etc.I have a brochure from Hobby Horse Farm in VA showing an obvious dwarf on the cover.Several old time breeders used dwarf stallions to reduce size-throwing away all other good traits.I will be very honest-I have had more than my share of dwarf foals-many were from my Appaloosa horses.I am no longer breeding.I gelded several stallions who were producers that I paid lots of money for.I had the heartbreak of having to put down dwarf foals who could not possibly have any quality of life.One very sweet beautifully marked little sorrel pinto filly was not as big as my barn cat.She filled up only half of a five gallon bucket when I went to bury her.I still have her mom who has never been bred again.Sire was gelded.I did have 1 dwarf colt will an incredible will to survive and he was not very severely deformed.Spent lots of money on shoes and getting legs straighter found Veronique Matthews in Texas sent Chester down there and he is now a therapy horse doing great things.Hearts and Hooves is her program and these little dwarf foals have a great purpose in life.Veronique educated the public that dwarfism

IS NOT DESIRABLE in Minis.Unfortunately, many breeders SELL dwarf foals and horses for big bucks and take them to auctions where they will often bring more than a sound correct horse.They are a novelty and the general public doesn't know any difference.It is up to us as breeders to educate the public and make them aware of the special needs and very expensive care often required as the caretaker of a dwarf.In a perfect world genetic testing would be done before any Mini is bred and dwarf carriers should be removed from breeding.I don't see it ever happening since the almighty dollar rules many things. I am so glad you wrote this post.

Can you reveal some of the bloodlines for the appaloosa horses that had dwarves? I breed appaloosas so this is of great concern to me. I have never had a dwarf foal born here (so far). The thought of it terrifies me.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Would I put a dwarf I bred on my website?

Sure, no problem, on it's own page, with a full explanation, of course!

If I breed one, that is what I shall do.

I gelded DC as his grandsire is a dwarf and there is no test, I was not willing to take the chance on his passing the gene to his foals- how many generations would I have to wait until a dwarf turned up that I knew could be laid at my door?

I was not willing to find out, quite frankly.

DC has NO characteristics, neither he nor his sire are dwarfs of any kind, both are very successful show horses.

I do not use the term BYB to denote someone whose barn happens to be in their backyard, that is not what a BYB is, a BYB is someone who breeds with no thought for anything other than profit, who has rubbish animals and breeds them to rubbish animals.

It is not the small breeders that are the problem here, nor the big breeders, nor even the Big Name Breeders.

It is the people who sell off their dwarfs and deny having had any, and then breed the same animals together again as it is not only "worth the risk" (in the same way I was told LWO X LWO is worth the risk....) but, anyway, they sold the dwarf for a tidy little profit - they are the problem.

Lucky Seven....No, is the short answer, Dwarfism has nothing to do with the size of the animal, Friesans had a dwarf line in them, but the breed stamped so hard on the "carriers" that it has been extinguished- all but, anyway.

A number of people on this Forum have had dwarfs form "B" size animals.

Dwarfism in the Mini was started by the introduction and use of a couple of now notorious Mini stallions, back in the infancy of the breed, which were, obviously, very small.

Nowadays discerning people realise that dwarfs are not real, small, Miniature Horses, but artificially induced small animals.

 

[Tremor]

Thanks guys for the commments.

I think that a bit of my post got misunderstood by KayKay when I said that dwarfism will never be abolished because of the BYBers. What I meant was that if we change the breed by introducing outside blood that isn't tainted (from Europe/UK) then there will be the possibility that dwarfism will be lessened because this blood will be canceling out the dwarfism. Tests would help as well. It would only be the people who had the carriers would be producing dwarves. I'm not trying to use BYB in a bad light, more so saying that they're the people outside of the loop and not paying for the tests. The people who don't research before breeding. That what I meanth.

Lavonne, I had a blast at your place. The dwarves definitely made it a whole lot better! I LOVED seeing them! I loved their personalities. I didn't want to leave them. But, I think its well known that I have a soft spot for dwarves. I did learn a lot, and I am hoping to train my horses to jump and drive.

Somebody asked me if we gelded our stallion. No, we did not. I will explain. There were only so far that my power could reach to my parents. I was not able to convince my father that he should be gelded, not even for me to show. He still had that thought in his head that he was a stallion and always would be. But, the man we sold him to only wished to keep him a pasture puff and as just something to pal around with! He was a great man and had a wonderful family. He had felt lonely since selling his animals and miniature donkey/mule. Buddy was just a pal.

Had I of had the power I would have gelded him. I had the money to do so but there was only so far that my power could reach. On the other hand, we gelded his dwarf son and a non-dwarf 2010 colt. Not a single foal will be produced. Dwarf or not. Thank god! Only one of our foals ever went on to breeding, and that filly was sold to be bred for miniature mules. No dwarves there! All of the colts were gelded.

Thanks again guys!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'd be the first to uphold "outside blood" especially form the UK except that is where the problem came from in the first place!

Yes, it is true that the American Mini has more of a problem- at the moment- but, once there is a test, the playing field will be leveled.

No registration without testing, that should be mandatory, once the test is out- what you do with the test is up to you, at first, anyway, but at least the status would be there for all to see- bit like HYPP.

 

[Tremor]

I'd be the first to uphold "outside blood" especially form the UK except that is where the problem came from in the first place!

Yes, it is true that the American Mini has more of a problem- at the moment- but, once there is a test, the playing field will be leveled.

No registration without testing, that should be mandatory, once the test is out- what you do with the test is up to you, at first, anyway, but at least the status would be there for all to see- bit like HYPP.

Hmm...I had heard that Shetlands and a certain type of miniature in the UK had a lower presense of dwarfism.

We may never know until the tests are out.

 

[horsehug]

Tremor,

I think you are right about this topic at times seeming to be hidden or Taboo.

I actually have had a page on my website for all these years about a little dwarf born at our place and I have always been open and honest in answering peoples' questions about dwarfism when they came to my farm.

I think the reason people are that way is because of the fact that there are different opinions on how to deal with the issue of dwarfism. And some people have a way of sounding very judgemental of those whose opinions differ from theirs. I think that makes some people afraid on topics like this to voice their opinion or to talk about it.

I myself, have great respect and admiration for two breeders whom I have learned the most from about dwarfism over my 23 years in minis.

The first is Tony Greaves who has raised minis for over 60 years and is a Wealth of information about every aspect of them. He has been a mentor to me on various things about minis, including dwarfs, and has always been very open and honest in answering my questions.

The second is John Eberth, who has been like a wonderful science instructor to me, explaining the scientific aspects of dwarfism and his research as it has developed, and has answered my continuing questions trying to explain things until I get a grasp on it.

I am very grateful to both of them and tend to agree with their opinions and perspective on dwarfism.

A few years ago, John's sister posted about dwarfism on the forum and I thought it was an excellent post!

Here it is.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=51169&st=0

Susan O.

 

[Sandy B]

I think you hit it right on! This trait is recessive! That means both a stud and a mare both have to be carriers to have a chance of producing a dwarf. Being a breeder in the quarter horse world I have dealt with many genetic problems- HYPP, HERDA, GBED, etc (both recessive & dominant genes).... I test my mares and only breed to stallions that have been tested too and then make the right choices on choosing mates. So far its been easy as my mares have all been clean genetically, but I have bred to a "carrier" of one thing or another and then foals are tested. Once there is a genetic marker for the dwarf gene, I will have everything tested and make sure a carrier is not bred to a carrier. Every breed of horse has its genetic issues, juts like our own human race. Its the people who are informed and make the right choices when it comes to reproduction that are out to better the breed and be responsible. I personally can not see culling a breeding animal just because it is a carrier (especially with a recessive gene). The hard part is, until that genetic marker is discovered, it is like playing Russian Roulette. I can tell you, if our horses ever produce a dwarf foal, the cross will never be made again.

Kudos to Tremor for raising this issue and starting this thread! I see a very bright future for this young forum member!!

Yes, dwarfism is a real "hot button topic" but it is also very widespread. John Eberth estimates that 25-40% of all minis are dwarf carriers. When he ran the dwarfism forum on here in 2007, I ran a poll asking how many breeders had a dwarf born on their farm, It was anonymous so response was good, and 42% of respondents said they had a dwarf foal or aborted fetus on their farm. Many went on to comment on the thread and said it resulted from a mare they bought in foal. So I guess that answers a question about what some breeders do when they learn they have dwarf carriers...

I hope that a test for dwarfism is available soon and that the testing and results are used responsibly. Education will be key. I am not one who thinks that all carriers should be removed from the gene pool. With a better understanding of the genetics of dwarfism (that it is recessive and thus both parents have to be carriers to produce a dwarf), I believe that dwarfism can be eliminated by treating it like we treat LWO (or HYPP). Test everyone and just do not breed two carriers together. The result is no more lethal white foals that die shortly after birth (or dwarfs) without removing all the frame overos (dwarf carriers) from the gene pool.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

From Robin LFK post >>A basic understanding of how genes are passed must be considered before jumping to final conclusion and elimination of these horses that carry the dwarf gene. We need to treat this genetic trait the same as the HYPP in Quarter Horses by identifying the gene/s and guide breeding programs accordingly. A horse that carries the dwarf gene may also carry traits that are so necessary for the refinement and structure of proportion and conformation for the future of the miniature horse.<<

I kind of agree with Robin on this point. What if we found that the pretty head big eye, tiny muzzle was part of the dwarf genetics? There's no point in throwing the baby out with the bathwater, UNTIL there is a definitive test and we KNOW how to handle it.

I'm also of the opinion that we do NOT know for a fact that some dwarves are not the result of environmental, vaccinating at the wrong time or other causes. Not the majority of dwarves, but there is no proof that the random one that happens isn't from some other cause. Ex. what if you had a a stallion bred to the same 25 mares for 10 years (250 foals) and year eleven a dwarf is born? Are those parents carriers for all 10 previous foals? All the hundreds he's sired on other mares possible carriers? What if it was something else we don't know of was involved? Again my opinion until its conclusive that ALL dwarves are the result of two recessive genes from carrier parents.

I've kept track for years of lines that I've seen dwarves produced from and avoid those. Some of them are extremely prominent, but I'm not interested. Saying that, I do question how prolific Bond Tiny Tim (specifically) was or if he actually sired many of the foals attributed to him. Too many of the sons/daughters of his either didn't get the dwarf gene or may not have been his actual offspring. As for the other older size reducing stallions from way back, seeing downline, you can see the lines that did and still do pop out a dwarf. There are also sons/daughters that have never. Again know your bloodlines and conformation.

One of our original Minis (Woody - he's a pet gelding) all 37.50" of him, well his sire I found out later had produced dwarves. Woody has horrible feet. Just awful and for the past two years has been a chronic founder case regardless of what diet, trimming schedule, management we keep him on. I'm actually facing the time he's likely going to be crossing the rainbow bridge in the next few weeks (his coffin bone is starting to rotate we think). I've always attributed his awful feet to that dwarfy line from his sire.

Regarding BYB - I'm the same view as Jane. Not necessarily small breeders. BYB are the callous ones that breed whatever, rarely register and sell junk and view it's got the equipment so breed it.

I do know breeders that have produced dwarves every year, and keep breeding the horses. I'm sorry I don't care how much you've spent on the stallion or mare - STOP! I won't touch a horse that I KNOW may carry dwarf genetics. There are too many out there and we don't have a way to manage/test now so why expose yourself to that knowingly.

As for your questions:

Like, would you put them on your website? On their own page for educational purposes yes. I have a Dwarfism page (no photos, just educational info). Honestly though if it was a severe dwarf I'd have it put down at birth, minimal would go to a no breed pet home.

Would you embrace them in public in front of other mini owners/breeders or would you hide them? I would never lie about it, but I wouldn't be promoting it either. I don't promote breeding dwarves or overt conformational flaws of any kind. I love what all the therapy people do with/for Minis, but I don't promote dwarfism as a good thing ever. Heck I won't breed mares that have thyroid or require Regumate either. My choice for my program.

Would you stand up for them if somebody insulted them? Of course. Education, education, education.

Would you be honest about the number of dwarves you've produced? Yes. Zero to date. I've bought a mare that the breeder foaled out and told me (before delivery) that the mare had had a tiny palomino colt. When the horses (it was a package of a large group of horses) arrived, I was "Who's the dwarf belong to?" Definitely obviously a dwarf. The mare had been bred before delivery, had a horrible dystocia the next year (not a dwarf foal though) and was sold as a do not breed mare.

I've also had a couple (mother & daughter bred to the same stallion) that I thought were dwarves and ran them by John Eberth, he said no just bad conformation. My thoughts years back two small horses = smaller horse. Not two short horses with slightly long backs will produce a long back smaller horse. I could line up the three generation (mare>daughter>daughter) and smaller yes, exact conformation, but started looking sausagey to me! It wasn't as obvious on the 30" mare but was on the 26" one. Live and learn.

The parents of them? Geld a stallion that sired dwarves. That's automatic. The mare would be pet homed.

Whether or not you kept the foal or not? The one that came here as a 'cute pally colt' was given away to a local family as a pet.

Good topic. It's one that isn't quite as knee jerk OMG as it was 6-7 years ago. Glad we're all more enlightened, educated and can have a rational discussion now.

 

[Sandy B]

Below is what Robin of LKF wrote in her article that Susan O attached the link to. I think Robin hit the nail on the head here. We have to be realistic, we need to be informed. We need a genetic market test for dwarfism. Then we need to not breed carrier to carrier. Plain and simple.

We, at LKF, are not an advocate of eliminating the miniatures that test positive for the dwarf gene from the breeding pool. That would have more of a negative effect on the breed as it is now. Entire farms and breeding programs would go out of business if you took away their main breeding stallion or majority of their mares because they carry a gene that can or cannot be passed on to future foals. A basic understanding of how genes are passed must be considered before jumping to final conclusion and elimination of these horses that carry the dwarf gene. We need to treat this genetic trait the same as the HYPP in Quarter Horses by identifying the gene/s and guide breeding programs accordingly. A horse that carries the dwarf gene may also carry traits that are so necessary for the refinement and structure of proportion and conformation for the future of the miniature horse.

 

We can imagine that people are afraid that their entire herd, years of work and money could be wiped out if this gene was identified and forced to be eliminated from the gene pool. It has been estimated by many experienced breeders that as many as 50-75% of minis carry this gene. If these were all eliminated - what would we breed? There would not be a large enough gene pool to substantiate the miniature horse economy and registries as they are now. It is much more benefical for all of the breeders, associations and businesses involved to learn how to live with the genetic profile these miniatures have and work within those parameters towards a common goal. In time, a gene like dwarfism can be minimalized and in long term eliminated thru genetic selection and knowledged breeding. The idea is not to scare people away, but to recognize the situation and look toward a future that is benefical for both horse and breeder.

 

Robin-LKF

 

[bannerminis]

Can I ask how it was not in your power not to geld your stallion? If he was your stallion and a known dwarf producer how come he was not gelded and sold as a nice gelding?

We all have the power to geld our horses.

If I bred a dwarf then the stallion would be gelded. Like RF I would have a special page for him/her explaining about dwarfism.

I dont think that Dwarfism is as much of a taboo subject that it was but I for one am all about learning more and when so much is still unknown about dwarfs then everything we learn can only be a bonus in our education of this subject. Also the more we know about dwarfs helps in learning about the type of care that they might need as there can be such a variance in the severity of the dwarf gene. From very mild to the extreme and all need special care so having ourselves educated on that is also a good thing IMO.

 

[ohmt]

Can I ask how it was not in your power not to geld your stallion? If he was your stallion and a known dwarf producer how come he was not gelded and sold as a nice gelding?
We all have the power to geld our horses

Here is your answer

Taken from one of Julia's previous posts.

Somebody asked me if we gelded our stallion. No, we did not. I will explain. There were only so far that my power could reach to my parents. I was not able to convince my father that he should be gelded, not even for me to show. He still had that thought in his head that he was a stallion and always would be. But, the man we sold him to only wished to keep him a pasture puff and as just something to pal around with! He was a great man and had a wonderful family. He had felt lonely since selling his animals and miniature donkey/mule. Buddy was just a pal.

It's hard to tell because she is so knowledgeable and mature, but she is a youth forum member. The ultimate decision to geld the stallion was her parent's, so while most of us have the power to geld our horses, this young lady did not.

 

[Tremor]

Yeah, pretty much what ohmt said....and like I said in my post.

I did not have the power to geld THAT horse, yet I've had the power to geld two other horses because they were MINE. The stallion was mine on paper, yet not mine in my dad's mind. On paper I co-own him with my mom yet my mom agreed that he needed gelded. My power to educate my dad ends at breeding.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The big eye, dished head etc are not part of the dwarf genetic.

That must be obvious, surely?

There are many breeds that like these characteristics, Arabs and Sec A Welsh to name but two, and they do not have the problem with dwarfs that the Mini does.

It is exactly like HYPP- and most reputable, responsible QH breeders are aware that it is only by breeding N/N to N/N that they can attain an HYPP free breed, in spite of the politics guiding the society.

If a horse sires a dwarf, or gives birth to a dwarf it should be taken out of the gene pool, there is no real way round this one, however some people might like to tapdance, and with testing available I am pretty sure people will start to vote with their feet.

One can only hope!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Very interesting thread and I applaud the young lady for all her research on the topic. It happens to be a topic that is very important to me, but I find that I can't easily discuss/debate it without my emotions coming into play. Therefore, I *try* to avoid most dwarf threads. I'm not always successful at that.

I also don't see it happening and I'll tell you why....

No one just comes out and says "such and such a horse produced a dwarf". We don't know who these horses are who are producing dwarfs. WHY? What's so taboo? It's all so secretive.

This comment is not entirely true - mainly true maybe, but not 100%. When my main herdsire, my multi World and National Top Ten, very expensive stallion produced a dwarf I announced it to the world. Many patted me on the back for having the courage to do what I always said I would - Be honest about it if one of my horses produced a dwarf. Others privately spanked me for it. Why admit that? Why "out" the other farms that have relatives of his? My answer...because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO. In my opinion.

A number of people on this Forum have had dwarfs form "B" size animals.

Dwarfism in the Mini was started by the introduction and use of a couple of now notorious Mini stallions, back in the infancy of the breed, which were, obviously, very small.

Nowadays discerning people realise that dwarfs are not real, small, Miniature Horses, but artificially induced small animals.

A agree. Dwarves can happen from B sized horse and they do. Often. I personally have seen no annecdotal evidence that simply tiny size results in more dwarves being born. Now, I'm assuming the tiny ones being bred are not KNOWN to be carriers. If they are, well then of course the chances will increase.

The big eye, dished head etc are not part of the dwarf genetic.

That must be obvious, surely?

Couldn't agree more!!! There is NOTHING, conformationally speaking, that I see in any dwarf that says to me "that trait is worth reproducing." I do not believe the tiny muzzle, large eye or dished head is a dwarf characteristic...by itself. Certainly many dwarves do have an exaggerated slope (more of a dome really) to their heads.

Again, very interesting topic. I am one who believes all horses should be tested and removed. I generally agree with Robin at LKF and certainly have a TON of respect for her knowledge of the breed. But in this case we disagree. I do realize the financial impact to many large farms, possibly to the registries as well. But I'm of the belief that the long-term existance of the breed would be better off if we culled the carriers.

 

[bannerminis]

Ok I understand now its just a pity your parents dont have the sense you do when it comes to dwarfs and possible dwarf gene carriers. Even though right now he is not been used for breeding we all know that peoples circumstances change and he could be sold on to someone that knows nothing of his history and would breed from him.

 

[miniwhinny]

I am one who believes all horses should be tested and removed. I generally agree with Robin at LKF and certainly have a TON of respect for her knowledge of the breed. But in this case we disagree. I do realize the financial impact to many large farms, possibly to the registries as well. But I'm of the belief that the long-term existance of the breed would be better off if we culled the carriers.

You'll most likely find those against culling dwarf producers have a farm full of them. It's one of those "guilty by omission" situations. I'd be very suspect of anyone not wanting to cull such a horrible trait...$$$ is a big motivator. In fact if you're NOT producing dwarfs from your lines...you should want to cull the producers even more because your lines would be very much in demand.

I'm not ignorant of the basics of genetics. If it takes two to tango and you only have one - you won't have a problem (just like LWO) The answer is simple DON'T breed two carriers but a test showing your prized horse is a carrier would certainly IMO devalue him/her when there are others out there testing free and clear.

Wouldn't you want to base your breeding program around these horses than around ones carrying the gene? I would. Say you have 'Mr. Wonderful the world can't live without me' who is a carrier and you find THE most awesome to die for mare - what you gonna do? Get her tested before you buy her or risk buying her and find you can't breed her to Mr. W because she's a carrier also.

We have other genetic issues in our mini's but none as prevalent or devastating as this.

If I had a genetically tested non-carrier I'd be advertising it from the rooftops and IMO those not wanting to test and cull have their own motivations that to me are very obvious.