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Tremor

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Sometimes, I feel that Dwarfism is a forbidden topic when it comes to Miniature horse Owners/Breeders. I kind of bothers me since I'm such an open person when it comes to my horses (3 out of 7 are dwarves) and dwarves are a big part of me. We started breeding in 2006 and had a dwarf that very year. We had one in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010. Not very good odds. But in those early days we didn't know much about them. Anything to be honest. We didn't know that the parents were causing it so we kept breeding.

It wasn't until recently that we started to actually learn about dwarfism. Since then I've been a sort of advocate when it comes to them on another forum, since I openly had a dwarf filly born. That filly wasn't supposed to be born. Her sire was a dwarf carrier, and her dam a possible dwarf. It wasn't supposed to happen but a family member put the stallion out with the dam. Separation doesn't work when a family member lets them out together.

On that forum, I guess you could say that I'm the "Dwarf Girl". I'm very vocal about my dwarves and any topic on dwarfism. I post lots of pictures of my dwarves. Everybody knows about them.

I was saying how I was completely honest about my herd. I am. I outed my own stallion and mares on here, my own website, and another the other forum. On my website its very clear to see that I am very open about them. I have all three of my dwarves on my website. I also have a page dedicated to dwarfism with a speech that I wrote for FFA Public Speaking this past year. I don't see too many websites with dwarves on them.

I'll be completely honest. I started this thread in hopes to talk about sometimes that I feel the need to just ask your guys' opinions on dwarves, not in anything big, but in general. Like, would you put them on your website? Would you embrace them in public in front of other mini owners/breeders or would you hide them? Would you stand up for them if somebody insulted them? Would you be honest about the number of dwarves you've produced? The parents of them? Whether or not you kept the foal or not?

I don't expect you guys to answer the above questions. I don't want you guys too. I'd be fearful that I might hinder your reputations.

I understand that dwarves are not to be promoted, but part of me thinks that dwarves should be in a way. Not in the way that would make people want them. But, I think that this type of promotion would be the way of just being honest and proud of them. How could you not be proud of them? I have a 9 month old dwarf filly. She turned 9 months old today. I thank God everyday for her. I am proud of her. Why? Because she's changed so many lives. Mine. My parents'. My classmates' and teachers'. Even the Life Skills class. Would you believe me if I embrace the name Tractor for her? I do. Why? Because a boy in that class named my filly Tractor. He was smiling the entire time.

To me, I feel that dwarfism is a huge controversy for many reasons. I also feel that the controversy needs to be abolished. We need to take the steps of making our breed better. I believe that the very first step of doing so would be to be honest to yourself and the people around you. Self critique your herd. Critique the offspring, and say, "Its obvious that this beautiful angel is a dwarf. Now I need to make sure that this doesn't happen again." I know that it would be hard for somebody to geld a winning stallion or retire a broodmare who has outproduced herself and the sire. But even you should be able to understand that underneath that conformation is an animal not of breeding quality. I know that this may ruffle some feathers.

I think, that with our breed that we need to add another MUST for our breeding stock, in front of conformation and disposition. Genetics. Of course, we won't be able to fully comprehend this until the day that John Eberths is able to release the genetic testing for dwarfism. But, I think we all know that there are some of us out there who know full well the minimal genetics that our breeding stock possess. We know that in whether or not the mare and stallion have produced a dwarf.

I would like to hope that each and every breeder/owner would be in line waiting for the tests to test ALL of their breeding stock. I would also hope that you guys would make it known what the tests prove. I would. Guess what. I already did.

As a community of breeders, owners, and enthusiasts I believe that to first better our breed that we must first tell the truth and know the truth. Afterwards, afterwards we take those great leaps to better our breed genetically however we must.

I am truly sorry if I did ruffle any feathers, but I am truly devoted to my horses and I hope to make a difference somehow. Dwarfism has been apart of my life since I was eleven and here I am at nearly sixteen trying to better my herd. As my first act of bettering my herd I was able to convince my parents that our horses weren't breeding quality. Now, my goal is to stray away from the breeding life and into the showing world. My mare Bow just entered into her first 2011 heat. I am beyond ecstatic. Why? Because I know that she won't be bred; ever. Just knowing that she's in heat and there isn't a single intact male near here is enough for me to sleep happy.

I think that we all know that we may never be able to rid dwarfism from our breed because of the backyard breeders or other narrow minded people, but maybe just maybe we'll be able to re-invent our breed into a whole new one with the inclusion of more Shetland and UK blood. We can't keep breeding for size for too much longer. There will come a time that if we don't stop breeding for size we'll have to resort to C-sections for every foaling. We need to breed for a safer miniature horse both genetically and physically yet also manageable in size. If we don't fix our breed then we'll only be left with dwarves 50/50 or even 100% of the time.

Your foals are the future. Their genetics are the future. People may not remember your horses but they'll remember what deep down inside in each and every cell and molecule.

I would like to leave this saying, Good luck in the future years of breeding. I'll be in the sidelines watching.
 
I read your FFA paper and I have to say what an outstanding job you have done! You are a young woman who is taking a stand on such a heavily debated issue. I just want to applaud you for your efforts and your desire to better the miniature horse breed!
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Good for you. I know for myself personally, there is not a single horse in my barn that I would not take out of the breeding pool if it produced a dwarf. I including stallions and mares in that statement. I have paid a lot of money to get my little stallion double registered but if he produces a dwarf he's being gelded. I promised myself that the day I decided I wanted to breed my minis. good for you for being so articulate and intelligent about your minis.
 
Thanks guys.

I'm glad to know that you would geld your stallion despite spending the extra money to double register him, weerunner.
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GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!
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I have always said that if any horse of mine produced a dwarf, it would be gelded if a stallion, and spayed, (if affordable...my vet said he could do it) but both would DEFINITELY and permanently be prevented from breeding...ever...and that includes to any other horse.

I also think that if there comes a time that we can do a simple test...and know what horses are carriers, ALL carriers should be removed from breeding. Period. I know, it will be costly...but can you honestly say that allowing dwarfism to continue, wouldn't be MORE costly in the end? I for one hope that when push comes to shove, BOTH the AMHA, and AMHR step up to the plate a lot faster than say, the AQHA when HYPP was discovered. It took over a decade for that registry to actually do something about that genetic horror...and look at the hundreds, if not thousands of horses that have suffered because of it.

And don't go handing me that bullC$@P about how "Mr/Miss Champion-so-n-so" is too GOOD to geld. Darn it...he/she is carrying a defective gene...he is NOT "too good" to geld/spay. Look how fast we all are to put down (as in discredit/remove from breeding) a horse with under/over bites, cow-hocks, bad shoulders, pasterns, etc...why IS IT that "we" will ACCEPT dwarfism??

Flamesuit...on...locked-n-loaded.
 
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GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!
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I have always said that if any horse of mine produced a dwarf, it would be gelded if a stallion, and spayed, (if affordable...my vet said he could do it) but both would DEFINITELY and permanently be prevented from breeding...ever...and that includes to any other horse.

I also think that if there comes a time that we can do a simple test...and know what horses are carriers, ALL carriers should be removed from breeding. Period. I know, it will be costly...but can you honestly say that allowing dwarfism to continue, wouldn't be MORE costly in the end? I for one hope that when push comes to shove, BOTH the AMHA, and AMHR step up to the plate a lot faster than say, the AQHA when HYPP was discovered. It took over a decade for that registry to actually do something about that genetic horror...and look at the hundreds, if not thousands of horses that have suffered because of it.

And don't go handing me that bullC$@P about how "Mr/Miss Champion-so-n-so" is too GOOD to geld. Darn it...he/she is carrying a defective gene...he is NOT "too good" to geld/spay. Look how fast we all are to put down (as in discredit/remove from breeding) a horse with under/over bites, cow-hocks, bad shoulders, pasterns, etc...why IS IT that "we" will ACCEPT dwarfism??

Flamesuit...on...locked-n-loaded.
All I can do is this.
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Good for you for stepping forward like you did and for taking positive steps to stop producing dwarves.

We have only had one dwarf born and that was out of a mare purchased in foal. Imagine my disappointment when this perfectly marked black appy colt was born a severe dwarf. My only regret is not putting him down right then at birth. Why? His dwarfism was very severe, but we had just lost a foal and another horse that week and I just didn't have the heart to. He had the run of our farm, never fenced in, and seemed happy enough and was such a hit with our Christmas tree customers. Ooops! Yes, they loved him, but didn't understand what he was. I ended up giving him to someone who kept him with another dwarf but I feel kept him alive too long, waited too long to put him down when his issues got to be too much.

Even now, many years later we still have people ask us about Dudley and we carefully explain what happened to him and why. They say they had pictures of him in their family photo albums and I just fear they then tell people that is a miniature horse.....
 
If I had a website and had a dwarf, would I put him/her on it? Probably not. Not if I was a breeder. Whether the dwarf was a result of my breeding or not, it would stick in the mind of the potential buyer that maybe my breeding practices aren't ethical (even if they are). If a mare had an obvious dwarf, I would have it euthanised, no question. The many health problems and, many times, pain, that they can go through just isn't worth it. I feel the same way about many human ailments/issues (we keep people alive at any and all costs, just because we can....).
 
I do not think dwarfism is near the taboo subject it was years and years ago. People are much more open about talking about it as you can see here on this forum.

I think that we all know that we may never be able to rid dwarfism from our breed because of the backyard breeders or other narrow minded people,
I do think that is a little offensive. While I have never produced a dwarf, I do not think that every dwarf born is because of a "backyard" breeder or a narrow minded person. Im a backyard breeder.
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Maybe some just are not educated just like your parents? Some of the most well known farms out there have produced dwarfs.

One of the biggest issues I see is people selling off known dwarf producers where they continue on at another farm. That is an issue.

Did you geld your stallion before you sold him? Im just curious
 
My feelings and opinions pretty much echo Matt's and Kay's. One of my worst nightmares would be if we produced a dwarf. Thankfully, that has not ever happened.
 
While I am a backyard breeder (actually my barn is my backyard since its attached to my house), I have only had one foal with dwarf characteristics. I bought the mare at a low budget auction, from a very well known farm, in foal to a very well known and promoted stallion and she produced a dwarf with minimal characteristics. While I am the backyard breeder, this farm was not. Is it the stallions first dwarf, probably not, was he gelded, not on your life. Did I breed the mare again, nope, placed her in a pet home as a companion to a little girl. I personally have bred very few foals, 8 in 9 years, I have never had a dwarf of my own breeding.
 
Kudos to Tremor for raising this issue and starting this thread! I see a very bright future for this young forum member!!

Yes, dwarfism is a real "hot button topic" but it is also very widespread. John Eberth estimates that 25-40% of all minis are dwarf carriers. When he ran the dwarfism forum on here in 2007, I ran a poll asking how many breeders had a dwarf born on their farm, It was anonymous so response was good, and 42% of respondents said they had a dwarf foal or aborted fetus on their farm. Many went on to comment on the thread and said it resulted from a mare they bought in foal. So I guess that answers a question about what some breeders do when they learn they have dwarf carriers...

I hope that a test for dwarfism is available soon and that the testing and results are used responsibly. Education will be key. I am not one who thinks that all carriers should be removed from the gene pool. With a better understanding of the genetics of dwarfism (that it is recessive and thus both parents have to be carriers to produce a dwarf), I believe that dwarfism can be eliminated by treating it like we treat LWO (or HYPP). Test everyone and just do not breed two carriers together. The result is no more lethal white foals that die shortly after birth (or dwarfs) without removing all the frame overos (dwarf carriers) from the gene pool.
 
Great post!!! You are very mature-way beyond your years.I have been in Minis since the mid 1980s.Long enough to vist first hand a very well known big name farm where I saw dwarf stallions in the breeding shed with mares.It was my first experience seeing a dwarf and they were so bad I thought I was going to vomit.Owner told me they were kept in there for kids to play with-Yeah and I just fell off the turnip truck.Look at some of the pedigrees-Bond Tiny Tim,Bond Bulldog etc.I have a brochure from Hobby Horse Farm in VA showing an obvious dwarf on the cover.Several old time breeders used dwarf stallions to reduce size-throwing away all other good traits.I will be very honest-I have had more than my share of dwarf foals-many were from my Appaloosa horses.I am no longer breeding.I gelded several stallions who were producers that I paid lots of money for.I had the heartbreak of having to put down dwarf foals who could not possibly have any quality of life.One very sweet beautifully marked little sorrel pinto filly was not as big as my barn cat.She filled up only half of a five gallon bucket when I went to bury her.I still have her mom who has never been bred again.Sire was gelded.I did have 1 dwarf colt will an incredible will to survive and he was not very severely deformed.Spent lots of money on shoes and getting legs straighter found Veronique Matthews in Texas sent Chester down there and he is now a therapy horse doing great things.Hearts and Hooves is her program and these little dwarf foals have a great purpose in life.Veronique educated the public that dwarfism

IS NOT DESIRABLE in Minis.Unfortunately, many breeders SELL dwarf foals and horses for big bucks and take them to auctions where they will often bring more than a sound correct horse.They are a novelty and the general public doesn't know any difference.It is up to us as breeders to educate the public and make them aware of the special needs and very expensive care often required as the caretaker of a dwarf.In a perfect world genetic testing would be done before any Mini is bred and dwarf carriers should be removed from breeding.I don't see it ever happening since the almighty dollar rules many things. I am so glad you wrote this post.
 
In over 20 years of my grandparents and I breeding, we have had one dwarf-an achondroplasia mare from two horses we bought. The sire is gelded and the mare was sold as a pet. We kept the dwarf mare for 10 years because she was beautiful except for those legs. Everyone that came to see horses-long time breeders and people just looking both-would comment on how beautiful she was. So I kept her until the right home finally came around last year. I had no problems telling people about her and telling them her bloodlines. I never put her on our website, but never felt the need to make excuses when people came to the farm and would point her out. As long as you're a responsible breeder and make sure the sire and dam of the dwarf couldn't make any more, well then I see no shame in that.

I am also with targetsmom-for now we need to cull horses that we know are carriers, but when the tests come out then no. When there are tests I think the registries need to make it mandatory for breeders to test before registering and those results need to go on the horse's papers. I know, extra money. But maybe people would think a little harder before breeding, dwarfs would not be allowed papers (I know they're not now, but hard to tell an achondroplasia dwarf sometimes), and people would know a little more about the genes their horses are hiding and could save themselves the heartache of a dwarf foal.
 
Wanted to add that if the registries DO make it mandatory to test all horses before registering, you could test all of your horses used for breeding and then if you breed non-carriers together, there would be no need to test your foals. Then if you breed a carrier, all of his/her foals would need to be tested. Maybe that would keep some carriers from being bred helping to weed out the dwarf genes.
 
In a perfect world genetic testing would be done before any Mini is bred and dwarf carriers should be removed from breeding.I don't see it ever happening since the almighty dollar rules many things. I am so glad you wrote this post.
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I also don't see it happening and I'll tell you why....

Because even now we have to use the words "well known breeding farm...famous stallion/mare" etc. No one just comes out and says "such and such a horse produced a dwarf". We don't know who these horses are who are producing dwarfs. WHY? What's so taboo? It's all so secretive. In all the discussions on dwarfs I'm still to see which of these "famous horses" are producing dwarfs. People are frightened to say - which tell me one thing - that it's NOT something those breeders want sharing...so will they take the test - heck no -they already KNOW they have dwarf producers and the last thing they want is for everyone else to know it too .
 
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I am new to minis, my first and only is a grade gelding. I would like to know if dwarfism isn't caused to some point by the breeding of smaller and even smaller minis? I also take exception to any horse or mini that is bred for show and many look to me like they are smaller versions of greyhounds, way too skinny. The necks are sweated to look even thinner and now the tummys are sweated. These minis to me don't look healthy. I know it is off topic, but decided to add it for anyone who would like to educate me.
 
Because even now we have to use the words "well known breeding farm...famous stallion/mare" etc. No one just comes out and says "such and such a horse produced a dwarf". We don't know who these horses are who are producing dwarfs. WHY? What's so taboo? It's all so secretive. In all the discussions on dwarfs I'm still to see which of these "famous horses" are producing dwarfs. People are frightened to say - which tell me one thing - that it's NOT something those breeders want sharing...so will they take the test - heck no -they already KNOW they have dwarf producers and the last thing they want is for everyone else to know it too .
To ME that is no different than other faults that come in some known pedigrees/lines.

Its up to breeders to look and research and educate themselves. No horse is perfect but if you take the time to visit other farms, go to shows (even if you dont want to show) you will see what issues are out there and where they are dominant. But is someone going to post the name? Probably not.

When I first started I went to many farms that had their dwarfs out for all to see. They were not hidden or tucked away. They were just a fact of breeding miniatures.

I think its gotten a ton better over the years and that is progress!
 
The first dwarf I saw in person belonged to a rodeo clown who uses miniatures in his act. He does breed miniatures, but did breed the horse; he bought it for his act. This little guy was such a ham and LOVED performing! The rodeo clown had him trained to do all sorts of tricks. I'm sure many folks in the rodeo audience had no idea about dwarves and probably could care less.

So, I think there is a whole world of folks out there who are not repelled by dwarves and do not think that every creature that isn't perfect should be killed.

A breeding farm could put a dwarf on its site and use it to educate. Characteristics of a dwarf could be pointed out, and theory behind the cause. Educated buyers are going to motivate careless breeders.
 
This young girl should be commended for studying and trying to find answers so that future breeders will benefit from her findings. It is sad she has had such bad experiences in her young life to witness but it looks like it made her aware of the miniature breeding problems and she is trying to find answers. I hope she continues and doesn't get discouraged. I don't think that having a dwarf is the big secret it was years ago. Back then no one had a dwarf ...if they did it was either knocked in the head or humanely put down. Many farms say they have never had a dwarf, I figured they either haven't been in the industry long or lost them as premature or as miscarriages. Mother Nature often takes care of things herself. Our first mini I bought for Larry as a Father's Day present, many of the "old timers" on here knew him as Buffalo Bill aka Billy. Cutest lil red pinto dwarf! Paid $100 for him, never cost a lot either for health problems although he had to eat his hay soaked in water , (hay fever!) and later he became arthritic. He lived to be 7 1/2 years old, loved by many and people that visited here from many states have pictures of him from when they came to visit. Often they wrote about him years later, never mentioning any of our other horses! He has been on our website pictured with our granddaughter grooming him before the vet came and sent him on over the Rainbow Bridge. Probably one of the hardest mini deaths here for our family to deal with. We had a little filly ourselves one year, cutest lil gal. I contacted someone about special shoes for her, but it didn't happen. She developed respiratory and evidently internal problems so had to be put down to not suffer. When I contacted the person I had asked about shoes she wrote back that she hoped in the future all our foals would be perfect. It was sad enough to put this little filly down, but to have someone make such a cruel comment something else. Kinda makes a person lose respect. We can sadly not save all these little ones and should not make them live on suffering for our own "rewards" what ever they might be. We have two little dwarves here right now that are 5 years old. Pixie and Dolly, they aren't hid out in the back 40 either. They are right by the "show barn" horses and even have their very own house and pasture. Vaccinated costs us $ 50 for the year, hoof trims $50 for the 2 of them very 4-6 weeks depending on how fast their hooves are growing. They have also been to ISU because of their teeth ( I hate those teeth bumps!). ISU recommended since they are fat and sassy to not try to pull teeth as the jaws could get broken. I don't want that for sure. They are happy now, other than rubbing their winter coats off! They too will see the clippers soon! I don't reveal who their breeders are or what the names of their sire/dam are. I don't see any reason to. They have had nice foals since and I don't think they are bred back to one another any way. One of our little ones is a gruello, we have a gruello stallion here that I am sure people think he is the sire. Not so we haven't used him on any horses here. We will use him on a mare this year he is approaching 25 years of age. He is from a rescue we helped with several years ago and have his papers. He is a past AMHA World top 5 too! So people need to be careful what they say about breeding farms and their horses until they learn all the facts on this forum and other forums. Some times things aren't what they appear.

We were fortunate to have this gal and her mom come to the Iowa Miniature Horse Club clinic at our farm this past weekend and it was fun to show our horses to her. I think she had a great time too! And learned some about showing. I think these would be good ways for her to use her horses and I bet she will! I wish she was closer to mentor her more but is a distance from us. She is young and eager to learn and we need to help young people like her. They are our future!

I can't see breeding farms per se putting dwarves on their website since they spend a lot to promote the " perfect" miniature horse. At least that better be the goals of breeders! To keep striving to make that special horse! That said one of my most favorite pics we put on ours at one time was Billy had ran lose always in our yard, while I was washing a show horse , went and got a mouth full of soapy water in his mouth and was blowing bubbles.! Some people critized us for having it on the website, but that's ok, many others loved the pic!

I hope she can keep up learning and asking questions, you are never to old to learn either! Thanks!
 

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