Stallion Breeding Age

[Boinky]

Nathan is free to hold and express his own oppinion. I think in alot of ways breeding young animals is risky, in that you don't KNOW what sort of traits they may develope that are genetic and show up a little later in life tgeb will pass off to offspring. HOWEVER one thing i'm not understanding is WHY do you, nathan, feel that it's "unethical" to breed a 2 year old stallion? Is there a reason for the horses health why you feel it's unethical? I know you mentioned testicle size and not having as high motility count..but does that HURT the animal or just lower your chances for coneception? Does it cause some sort of damage to the stallion? I myself have bred 2 year old stallions and have never seen it cause any damage or anything. I guess to me the ethical part kinda eludes me. Most times ethics play in when there is actually some physical damage being done. I can understand the "ethical" side to breeding a young mare.. there can be alot of health issues associated with breeding a young mare (that's another thing that gets me..lol in mini's they call anything under 2 a "mare"..lol well in big horse lingo anything up to 5 years old is a FILLY).

Hillary

 

[Tabitha]

Of course Nathan, like anyone else, is entitled to his own opinion & even to express it. The only thing is, he manages to make it sound like his opinion is the only one that counts, because (in his opinion!) his experience/knowledge is the only correct experience/knowledge. His place of work handles stallions of nearly every breed, and since they handle few two year olds he makes it sound like two year olds of all those breeds never get used for breeding--therefore anyone who says differently must be lying? Maybe that's not how he means it, but to me at least that is how he comes across.

Nathan said:

I don't know a single breeding or owner of a stallion personally that has bred mares as a 2yo. Most wait until their horses are more proven and slightly older

Perhaps most people he knows do wait until their stallions are older. This doesn't mean that "most" people overall don't use 2 year olds for breeding--I'm thinking the number of people he (or any other individual) knows personally is a very small percentage of people/breeders overall.
"Most" of the breeders I know do breed their 2 year old stallions to a few mares. (And I am referring to a variety of breeds here, not just Miniatures.) Likewise, "most" breeders I know do not use the services of a reproductive facility such as the one Nathan works at. Firstly, such facilities are few and far between around here, and secondly, most of the breeders I know don't have the money it takes to use such a facility. They are knowledgeable horse people with high quality breeding stock, but they breed their horses at home the old fashioned way. I'm not sure that comparing these breeders to those that always use a reproductive facility is an even comparison. I have used a two year old to breed a couple mares, but if I were to use Nathan's facility, no, I wouldn't put the money out on collecting a two year old. (& I wouldn't pay money to take my stallion, regardless of age, somewhere like that to have him breed by natural cover.)

I'm another who is at a loss as to the use of the word unethical in regards to using a 2 year old stallion. It doesn't harm the horse, it doesn't harm the mare, foals are registrable. I'm also at a loss as to what a study of 14 month old colts has to do with breeding colts between the ages of 24 and 36 months. A 14 month old colt is very different from a 24 month old colt.

 

[spazkat]

Why are you quoting stats on 14 mo olds when we are talking 24 -30 mo old stallions? Tat is a BIG difference in horse ages.

Probably because most people refer to a horses age as being what he is for showing... so he becomes a yearling on Jan 1 of the following year, regardless of his actual birth date. Given that most horses foal out some time mid summer, he will become technically 1 year of age when he is in all likelihood 5-8 months old. The "2year old" would in actuality be 17-20 months. Chances are a colt between 24 and 30 months old would be referred to by his owner as a 3 year old since thats what he would technically be due to the universal birth date.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I love your comments Rabbit... "you are entitled to your opinion, just as we are entitled to our more educated ones". Thanks, that's very empowering

My comment is based on the horse's immature mind as well as body. Its easy to damage their personality and behavior. Its amazing we have such a wonderful group of trainers here who can overcome that hardship, most people can't. I've dealt with the result of mistraining from starting too early, and its not pretty. So for all those reasons I won't risk it at all. A stallion (which is technically a colt until they are three or four depending on breed definition) isn't ready to handle the mental stress of breeding at age 2. It is not common procedure to breed 2yo's in any of the farms I've worked with, nor the people I've worked with. That includes a huge variety of places standing your local nobody all the way up to world champions and the two-time world Superhorse. I know plenty of people do it, and I don't feel its right. Other than halter, how many 2yo stallions have earned the right to breed?

 

[Lauralee]

Other than halter, how many 2yo stallions have earned the right to breed?

I'm enjoying both sides of this lively discussion....not sure where I stand in my opinion on this topic but I must say that Nathan has a VERY good point with the quote above.

 

[Walbon Acres]

Nathan, What would be a 2 yr. olds right to breed? I don't think that just showing should be the only consideration. And especially if you are talking big breeds because they are not broke to ride by then. Also how will you know what the stud produces if you don't breed him??!! I don't believe you should breed everything on your farm to a young stallion, I think that it should depend on the individual horse.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Uneithical? That is a strong statement. I realize you work at a facility which does AI and stands out. I know many who do there own collecting and have as much and more experience in that as you. All that aside I am sure you are aware there is more then one way for farms to manage there stallions. Not one way works for every horse nor will every horse react the same to one situation.

Some do just fine running with mares others do much better stalled. Some can be with other stallions others not so much

Some horses are ready and willing to breed at 2 (and sucessfully cover mares) others really dont show more then some occasional hormonal urges once in a while until they are 3 or 4.

As far as the right to breed or remain a non breeding stallion.. well that is something you just simply will never get everyone to agree on. To many different ideas and defintions apply to that one.

 

[KanoasDestiny]

I am including a couple of articles that may be of some help. Just a warning, both of them are along the same lines as what Nathan expressed in his posts, and one is geared towards miniature colts.

I 100% agree with Courtney's response. I have known many horse breeders and none would ever consider breeding a colt younger than 3 years of age. Just because a horse is mature at 2 or younger, does that mean that they should be bred then? If that's the case, a mare should be bred as soon as they first cycle, as nature would certainly take that course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse

http://www.scottcreek.com/Young_Stallion.htm

http://www.wcmhr.com/abcsofminis.html

 

[Magic]

In those articles I see only one instance where it says that a colt should not be used as a "herd sire" before he is three years old. There is a difference between being a "herd sire" and breeding a few mares. The others indicate that two year olds should be used sparingly, since they generally have smaller testicles and therefore less ejaculate to impregnate mares. One article suggests that a two year old breed no more than 12 mares his first year...

I guess that Nathan has every right to think of those of us who use two year old colts for breeding as "unethical", though I don't see how it is morally wrong to do so. *shrug* I'm not going to try to change his mind, but he won't convince me that I am unethical for using two year old colts for breeding either, unless he has a better argument than has so far been used.

My senior stallion that I owned in partnership died a year and a half ago, and all I had left was my three colts that are stallion prospects. I didn't even consider using them as yearlings, though all three were convinced that they could do they job, if only given the chance, lol.

As two year olds I did breed each of them-- two to three mares and one to two mares. And each one was at least 24 months old at the time. I'm not a novice to breeding, nor to starting a colt to breeding, and my boys are all doing just fine. Sure it would have been nice to let them all have a longer "childhood", but then again, nature has been telling them for a LONG time now that they aren't children anymore.

 

[Minimor]

The right to breed? I have to wonder what really does earn a stallion the right to breed? Not show titles as a young horse? Show titles then as a mature horse? Performance wins as well as halter wins?

You see, even there not all will agree. For me the show titles are unimportant. A stallion can be 10 years old & has won every halter and performance class he's ever entered, at the biggest shows in the nation--to me that doesn't give him the right to breed if he can't sire foals that are as good as or better than himself. (And yes, that does happen--some horses simply cannot reproduce their own quality or better.) If I've worked with the horse I know his temperament and personality, and I have a pretty good idea of his trainability even if I haven't started training him for anything much yet. I'll have watched him move at liberty in his paddock, so I know what kind of action and athletic ability he's got. I can judge his conformation and determine if he has what I like in a horse. I know if his pedigree is acceptable to me. The main question left to answer is can he produce quality foals? A few test breedings as a 2 year old will give me some idea of that. If he absolutely can't sire the quality of foals I expect, then he's gelded & moves on to a different sort of career--and I know you don't agree with gelding horses, Nathan, but that's okay too--If, however, those first foals come out to be just what I had envisioned, then with all my criteria met to my satisfaction--yes, that colt has earned the right to breed.

 

[capall beag]

In response to you Q. I see you have been already been given the information you requested about AMHR/AMHA and the rules of what age a stallion can be bred.

My opinion with any animal when it comes to breeding would be that nothing should be set in stone.

I would do it on a case by case basis.

IMO some stallions mature younger than others. Some handle breeding better than others. Some need time to build up their confidence before they make suitable studs etc.

I also think it is important to consider the longterm goals for your stallion.

Personally, If I intended to use an animal heavily for breeding I would give them more time to mature.

If you have a 2 yr old stallion and want to use him on a couple of mares, then a couple more the next season etc

I think alot of it comes down to personal opinion.

Now that you know the AMHR/AMHA rules you can make a personal choice of what you think will work best for your stallion/colt!!

And of course, you will find much advice from this board too! Some you will take and some you can ignore!!!!!!!!!!

:

 

[HGFarm]

unethical (adj.) not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior : "unethical business practices"

unethical (adj.) not adhering to ethical or moral principles

unethical

adj

1. Not morally right

Thesaurus: unscrupulous, dishonest, immoral, dishonourable, unfair, underhand, illegal, unprincipled, illicit, disreputable, shady

I dont see that breeding a stallion at two fits any of the above items. I have never used one as a herd sire, but have used two year olds to cover a mare or two- never more than three. Also, I pick the mares with care and usually hand breed the first few times. I would never allow a 2 year old to have his ego ruined by the 'farm witch' per se.

Yes everyone has their opinion, let's not get nasty about the whole thing. I know we are all adamant about the subject we love most! :bgrin

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

And following that definition, I do feel that it is, like I've stated before.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Nathan in future if you are going to quote someone could you please get it right??

Quoting incorrectly IS unethical.

What I actually said was

"Nathan, as said, you are entitled to your opinion, so long as you accept that that is all it is, one opinion, among many, each of which is as relevant and often far more experienced than your own."

A stallion is only as good as his get, it does not matter how good he looks if he cannot reproduce it he is of little use - no use as a stallion, in fact.

So finding out if your pretty colt can throw good foals is paramount.

Sometimes research and actual field experience differ greatly, so I will go with the actual, working experiences every time.

I have never had a two year old colt with small testicles- my breeding colts are just that, ready to breed.

As said, on occasion I have bred a two year old mare- each mare is a separate case.

Now, I agree this has gone wildly "Off Topic" and I apologise to the original poster, whose question has been ably answered earlier.

Perhaps if we wish ot pursue this we should start another thread???

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

"often far more experienced than your own"

That's what I had the big problem with Rabbit. You make digs on purpose as insults. That is not all that appreciated. I'm not a reproductive physiologist because I have no clue.

 

[kaykay]

rabbit and nathan you guys need to take this to email

or just agree to disagree and let it go

 

[SHANA]

I bred my stallion to one mare when he was a 2 year old, the mare was bred by pasture breeding. Then as a 3 year old he bred 6 mares(4 minis, one shetland and a grade pony) over the course of the summer. His first foal, a colt is just amazing and already sold. He leaves October 23rd to go to his new home with miniature horse owners who have 5 minis now, this will make number 6. They can't wait to get him. I can't wait to see the 6 foals due in 2007 by my stallion. In 2007 he will have 7 mares to breed for sure as a 4 year old, maybe more if I buy another mare or 2. Though I may buy a outcross stallion so that I can keep some of Cody's daughters.

 

[Reble]

Interesting write up that says not enough STUDY on Miniature horses compared to Full size horses

http://www.scottcreek.com/Young_Stallion.htm

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

It was let go three days ago

 

[nightflight]

Is it possible that Nathan and Rabbit are both right?

In many large horse breeds a successful stallion could have dozens of mares booked to him every month during the breeding season. Asking a immature horse to handle that kind of workload might indeed bring ethics into play. When there is a the possibility that the young stallion could have reduced fertility due to his young age... that might bring business ethics into consideration as well. When breeding season is in full swing even keeping a fully mature stallion in top form can be a challenge.

What the discussion seems to be about here though is breeding a young stallion to a few of the stallion owners mares. If the owner owns a stallion, they obviously feel that they can deal with stallion behavior, so that really isn't an issue. No money has passed hands, so it can't be business ethics.... that leaves the issue of workload. Is the stallion able to deal with the stresses of breeding?

I would never try to breed sixty plus mares to a two year old stallion. Even if his motile sperm count was off the charts, ethically I have a problem asking an immature horse to do that much work. Would I breed my two year old to one or two of my own mares? Sure. I don't feel that would harm my horse at all.

Like anything else the care that the horse receives, the experience level of the owner, and the quirks of the horse itself should all influence ethical decisions. Please remember that research is necessary to make informed decisions, but research cannot determine ethics. By the same argumet, someones description about what they are doing an ocean away doesn't decide it for me either. Ethics are personal decision. We should expect to be able to discuss, argue, and rant about them but we cannot prove or disprove something like an ethic. We can make rules to regulate behavior, but the best we can do with ethics is reasonably state our cases and hope to win over others to our way of thinking =).

Regards