Stallion Breeding Age
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Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
I don't know what the registry rules are, but I find it unethical to breed a stallion younger than three years old. Before that they aren't mentally ready for it and can't handle it long term. Three years is still a baby, but they are better suited for it, as well as having more and higher sperm quality. They aren't sexually mature until age 5, mentally until age three or four.
Walbon Acres
Well-Known Member
If I remember correctly, in both AMHA and AMHR, a colt has to be 2 to breed a mare and then be able to register the offspring.
K
kaykay
Guest
amhr did change the rule on the stallions age. Its been in the Journal and posted about here a lot. The stallion must turn 3 before you can register foals. So yes you could breed a 2 yr old but then you can register his foal until he turns 3. They have changed it again after the first rule so it is confusing.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I know AMHR has a limit in age for colts to be bred- I do not think AMHA has one.
I have always bred my colts at two years old and found them to be, if anything, actually more fertile than they are at three, and also more sensible for having been bred, too.
I had to draw my little tiny weeny Buckeroo Grandson pictures and have a very quiet, very small, experienced mare (in hand, obviously) for him, but he got the idea after three days of a lot of sighing (mare and me!!) and seems to have got the job done as well.
I have no problem with breeding a two year old colt at all, but I do have a problem with breeding two year old mares - although on occasion I have done this too.
The mare has the most work to do, after all!!
The male hardly does a lot more than he would attempt to do on another colt, anyway.
Technically, in Europe, at least, a stallion is an entire make over four years old.
Up till then they are considered colts, irrespective of their "status" as breeding animals.
I have always bred my colts at two years old and found them to be, if anything, actually more fertile than they are at three, and also more sensible for having been bred, too.
I had to draw my little tiny weeny Buckeroo Grandson pictures and have a very quiet, very small, experienced mare (in hand, obviously) for him, but he got the idea after three days of a lot of sighing (mare and me!!) and seems to have got the job done as well.
I have no problem with breeding a two year old colt at all, but I do have a problem with breeding two year old mares - although on occasion I have done this too.
The mare has the most work to do, after all!!
The male hardly does a lot more than he would attempt to do on another colt, anyway.
Technically, in Europe, at least, a stallion is an entire make over four years old.
Up till then they are considered colts, irrespective of their "status" as breeding animals.
Quote - don't know what the registry rules are, but I find it unethical to breed a stallion younger than three years old. Before that they aren't mentally ready for it and can't handle it long term. Three years is still a baby, but they are better suited for it, as well as having more and higher sperm quality. They aren't sexually mature until age 5, mentally until age three or four. Unquote
This comment implies that many of us long time breeders are unethical with limited knowledge about stallions and horse maturity. Firstly, I have had nothing but success in using 2 year olds. I have used about 12 differnt stallions of all ages, and the 2 yr olds performed as well, as gentle, as responsive, as fertile as any one of them. Incidentally, I always have mare on lead and stallion is free with no problems or injuries ,Nathan, and I have done this thousands of times, in case you are wondering. Secondly, miniture horses are deemed to be grown up at age 3, and I certainly consider them mature to do the job. I don't know what kind of horses you have, but mine are NOT babies at 3. I have some concern when many of the posters are new to the forum, and since many of the older long time breeders are not posting much anymore, many of the answers are now being provided by equally new and inexperienced forum members.
This comment implies that many of us long time breeders are unethical with limited knowledge about stallions and horse maturity. Firstly, I have had nothing but success in using 2 year olds. I have used about 12 differnt stallions of all ages, and the 2 yr olds performed as well, as gentle, as responsive, as fertile as any one of them. Incidentally, I always have mare on lead and stallion is free with no problems or injuries ,Nathan, and I have done this thousands of times, in case you are wondering. Secondly, miniture horses are deemed to be grown up at age 3, and I certainly consider them mature to do the job. I don't know what kind of horses you have, but mine are NOT babies at 3. I have some concern when many of the posters are new to the forum, and since many of the older long time breeders are not posting much anymore, many of the answers are now being provided by equally new and inexperienced forum members.
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Ditto what AJ said. There is nothing at all unethical about using a two year old for breeding. I don't believe in overusing a two year old, but I don't think that most breeders do. There is no reason for a stallion to have bad manners just because he is allowed to breed at two; ours often get shown as yearlings & even if they don't, they get their manners taught to them before they are 2. There are some that are too immature to breed at two, and those will usually let you know it.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
I wholeheartedly stand by my comment. We saw over 300 stallions at the farm for reproductive services this year; I'm not some little newbie. There is research out there showing how immature youngster's testicles are, where 14mo colts have barely 800 million cells per ejaculate around 35% motile. Yes, that's enough to get a mare pregnant, but is too young. There is a huge spurt of growth between two and three years, reproductively. I do find it amazing that people here breed at 2, very commonly. But I feel that's not right, they just aren't ready. Three is the youngest I'll breed, four is better for any number of mares.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Surprisingly enough a lot of us on this Forum do actually have many, many more years of experience behind them than you do.
I, and I have no doubt all the others also stand wholeheartedly behind our statements.
Breeding most two year old colts is fine- although obviously I would add some riders to that to allow for individual horses- but that said I have never actually come across a Mini two year old (or big horse for that matter) that was not actually ready to be bred and more than willing and able.
I have known, as have many others, yearlings that are more than capable of getting a filly in foal- and this is the reason we always advise newcomers to separate their colts and fillies.
I have no problem breeding any of my two year olds.
I am not unethical.
I am experienced at handling colts and stallions.
You have your opinion, and you have every right to it but please do not make suggestions that are as insulting to our intelligence and integrity as that.
I, and I have no doubt all the others also stand wholeheartedly behind our statements.
Breeding most two year old colts is fine- although obviously I would add some riders to that to allow for individual horses- but that said I have never actually come across a Mini two year old (or big horse for that matter) that was not actually ready to be bred and more than willing and able.
I have known, as have many others, yearlings that are more than capable of getting a filly in foal- and this is the reason we always advise newcomers to separate their colts and fillies.
I have no problem breeding any of my two year olds.
I am not unethical.
I am experienced at handling colts and stallions.
You have your opinion, and you have every right to it but please do not make suggestions that are as insulting to our intelligence and integrity as that.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
I see nothing wrong w/ using a 2yo stallion for breeding. I have done it in the past with good results and will be doing it this coming Spring with DunIT when he is 2yo.
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Nathan, it isn't just people "here" that use 2 year old stallions for breeding. I'm on a big horse board thta consists mainly of sport horse owners & breeders; there are a few there that don't breed their 2 year olds, but "most" do test breed with their 2 year olds.
Morgans, my original breed, are very commonly started breeding at two.
Locally (and nationally for that matter) I know a huge number of breeders--QH, Appy, Paint, Arab, Welsh, pretty much some of all breeds--and yes, nearly all of them do breed with their 2 year olds.
It is not just "here".
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Out of the 300+ stallions we saw this year, one was a 2yo in for his first and only 2yo collection. That's a huge cross section of breeds, from qh to morgan to mini to gypsy to andy, and everywhere inbetween. Like I said, their testicles do mature quickly, but it is my educated opinion that they are too young at age 2. Note that I said my piece about feeling its unethical before anyone else posted that they breed 2yo's. If there had been posts already I would have held my tongue, as it could have been easily felt that I was accusing THEM of being unethical. And that wouldn't have been fair. But the point is that I said it before anyone else that I feel that breeding a 2yo is unethical, and I stand by that.
In the years that I've been breeding (not as many years as many here, but in number of stallions and breedings I'm not new whatsoever) I've only known a few 2yos that were bred, against our advice. We just offer services, if you want to collect a 1yo as long as it wouldn't physically damage him I'll do it. I don't know a single breeding or owner of a stallion personally that has bred mares as a 2yo. Most wait until their horses are more proven and slightly older.
That's my education opinion, and I stand by it firmly. You are free to disagree all you'd like, that's the wonderful thing about opinions.
In the years that I've been breeding (not as many years as many here, but in number of stallions and breedings I'm not new whatsoever) I've only known a few 2yos that were bred, against our advice. We just offer services, if you want to collect a 1yo as long as it wouldn't physically damage him I'll do it. I don't know a single breeding or owner of a stallion personally that has bred mares as a 2yo. Most wait until their horses are more proven and slightly older.
That's my education opinion, and I stand by it firmly. You are free to disagree all you'd like, that's the wonderful thing about opinions.
Minimor
Well-Known Member
If you are basing your knowledge on the horses you see in a collection facility then it's no surprise to me that you don't see many 2 year olds being bred. I can well believe that semen from 2 year olds doesn't ship/freeze as good as that from older stallions, and people don't spend the money to AI their 2 year olds. It's an entirely different thing when you are out in the world of natural cover.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
We do natural cover as well as semen evaluations, and BSE's as well.
Nathan, are your studies being done on full sized horses, which are known to still grow and develope until they are six and seven years old, or done on Minis?
Minis are noted to mature much faster than the big variety. It may be an interesting study?
Minis are noted to mature much faster than the big variety. It may be an interesting study?
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
We always bred the Arabs at two as well, not just Minis and, for the record I always bred my Arab mares at two as well- obviously had there been a reason not to then it would not have happened but since these were animals I had bred and raised myself, I did it.
Reasoning thus- mostly these were animals that would go on under saddle.
Back at two whilst in foal or getting in foal, ride very, VERY gently as a tow year old until pregnancy precludes riding- usually by five- six months (I would ride an older mare longer, this is a baby remember)
Once she has foaled down and weaned the foal she will be three and a half- back and ride again and probably either bring out under saddle as a four year old or sell on as a "made" animal, who is "complete"- ie backed, ridden and had a foal.
This mare can now compete until she is ready to stop, she has had a foal.
Whereas it might be dangerous to put an older mare in foal, or difficult, a mare that has bred a foal can come back to it happily.
So that mare might go on under saddle into her teens and then become a broodmare in safety (as far as it ever can be)
Would I do it now??
I honestly do not know, probably I would do it exactly the same but start a year later- I find as I get older I become more patient, perhaps??
I don't know, it depends entirely on the mare.
Colts are different.
If I have a smashing colt who has done well in the ring I want to put him on a few mares and see if he is as good as he says he is- if he is not he would be gelded, obviously.
So I will happily put a two year old on up to five mares- if I have a broad enough spectrum of types and heights to allow this.
At the moment I do so my two year old has gone on a tiny mare, a taller mare and a mare that always throws excellent foals (No proof there as the mare throws good foals, I just want a foal from him out of this mare!!)
If I had had more mares empty I'd have put him on two more but all the others were set by the time I bought him.
This of course is all natural cover, managed by myself- I have never had the need to get anyone else involved!!
As far as I know my breeding management is pretty much standard, so you can add "internationally" to Nationally!!
Nathan, as saids, you are entitled to your opinion, so long as you accept that that is all it is, one opinion, among many, each of which is as relevant and often far more experienced than your own.
Reasoning thus- mostly these were animals that would go on under saddle.
Back at two whilst in foal or getting in foal, ride very, VERY gently as a tow year old until pregnancy precludes riding- usually by five- six months (I would ride an older mare longer, this is a baby remember)
Once she has foaled down and weaned the foal she will be three and a half- back and ride again and probably either bring out under saddle as a four year old or sell on as a "made" animal, who is "complete"- ie backed, ridden and had a foal.
This mare can now compete until she is ready to stop, she has had a foal.
Whereas it might be dangerous to put an older mare in foal, or difficult, a mare that has bred a foal can come back to it happily.
So that mare might go on under saddle into her teens and then become a broodmare in safety (as far as it ever can be)
Would I do it now??
I honestly do not know, probably I would do it exactly the same but start a year later- I find as I get older I become more patient, perhaps??
I don't know, it depends entirely on the mare.
Colts are different.
If I have a smashing colt who has done well in the ring I want to put him on a few mares and see if he is as good as he says he is- if he is not he would be gelded, obviously.
So I will happily put a two year old on up to five mares- if I have a broad enough spectrum of types and heights to allow this.
At the moment I do so my two year old has gone on a tiny mare, a taller mare and a mare that always throws excellent foals (No proof there as the mare throws good foals, I just want a foal from him out of this mare!!)
If I had had more mares empty I'd have put him on two more but all the others were set by the time I bought him.
This of course is all natural cover, managed by myself- I have never had the need to get anyone else involved!!
As far as I know my breeding management is pretty much standard, so you can add "internationally" to Nationally!!
Nathan, as saids, you are entitled to your opinion, so long as you accept that that is all it is, one opinion, among many, each of which is as relevant and often far more experienced than your own.
Sorry to jump in on the debate. I'm not a breeder, nor do I have an aspiration to be one, but I personally feel 2 is too young. Not saying breeding at 2 is wrong - if a breeder is experienced, they know what's best for their horses. But if I ever decided to breed, I'd be much more comfortable waiting until the colt was about 3 years old. That might stem to my days working with the full-sized horses, when it was fairly frowned upon to breed a 2 year old colt, though. It just seems to me that a colt is more physically and mentally ready to breed at 3, or even very late during his two year old year.
Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, or unethical - each breeder is an individual, and does what is best for their own horses. My above is just an opinion, albeit a very inexperienced one.
Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, or unethical - each breeder is an individual, and does what is best for their own horses. My above is just an opinion, albeit a very inexperienced one.
