Questions about training Foals

[txminipinto]

MA, Thanks! I really appeciate your down to earth advice. You are right about the common sense part. My husband had already thought about splitting the shelter with the fence in the middle. He has a bobcat and can easily move the shelter. This is a temporary fix as we are working on a second pen with a shelter and seperate pasture, that will have at least a acre of ground between the two areas.

You are the only one that has not made us feel like idiots for even thinking about raising mini's. My husband and I are both in our late 40's are semi-retired and with the horses 24/7.

PS. We look forward to your opinion in the future

For those who mentioned gelding, we have no intentions of gelding our colt.

I don't think anyone here thinks you're an idiot. There are several members here who have loads of experience good and bad, that from your post saw some red flags that may cause you trouble down the road. It's only our intention to help and educate because new mini owners is what keeps the industry alive. However, I think you need to do A LOT of research before you commit to owning a stallion and breeding a mare. There are several members here who've lost foals and mares horribly and have sworn to never breed again. Then are there are those who haven't experienced that yet. And I do mean YET. Because it will happen one day. I work in the veterinary profession as well as being a respected trainer. I've seen the best and I've seen the worst.

I know what it's like to have someone rain on your plans. I know what its like to have someone tell you that you can't do that or it won't turn out the way you want it to. Sometimes they've been right, sometimes I've proven them wrong. But I proved them wrong not by chance, but by thousands of hours of research before I committed to the goal.

I've seen yearling studs breed/conceive yearling mares and those yearling mares die as 2 yr olds from birth. I've seen them not die too. If you're going to breed, then you need to research what the ideal conformation of the breed is. Because one day you might have to sell that foal and you want it to be useful and go to a good home. You need to study the faults of your horses and select mates that highlight the positives and hide the faults in the resulting foals. Working at Texas A&M, I have seen some horrible results in foals from improper matings. Things that could have totally been prevented.

There's this myth out there that you can make money breeding things. Anything that eats while you sleep costs you money. The only way to make a small fortune in horses is to start off with a large one. From the moment you buy a horse, you're already losing money. It's the truth. But all of us that keep shoveling the manure, do it for the love and passion of the animals, not for the paycheck. Those who are good at what they do, do it for the betterment of the speciman not themselves.

You're excited about having these cute little guys. And you have every right to be, I love what I do and I expect that everyone here feels the same. But it's best to enter this world with an open mind and learn from those who've gone before you. We've all made the same mistakes and some of us can help others to not make those same mistakes. By taking offense to some of the posts (who are all well meaning even if they don't convey that in typed word), you're closing your mind to some valuable learning opportunities.

:saludando: We're all here to help our newbies and experienced mini owners. Some topics get more heated than others, but that's the passion in this group to do what's best for the animals.

On the gelding issue, my only question when someone has no intentions on gelding a colt is: What is it about this particular horse that makes him stallion material?

For my personal owned horses, they must: exhibit correct confirmation, a pleasant temperment, no hereditary defects, a noteable show record, and when bred must improve upon themselves through their foals.

Again, I wish you the best of luck with your two new babies and hope they bring you years of enjoyment.

 

[ClickMini]

Charlotte and John:

I sent you a PM that I hope was interpreted as being helpful and welcoming! The main reason I recommended gelding your colt is so that your two can be companions. They are herd animals and love being together!

As for the tone of many of the messages here, I believe that most of the posters are reacting to having either seen or experienced heartbreaking foaling accidents, an unfortunately pretty common thing in the breed. I bought my first mini (a stallion, and still is one!) in 2003 after a lifetime spent with big horses. He is a very gentle and sweet stallion, due mainly to the clicker training I did with him I totally believe. At this point I have two stallions and five mares, and have yet to breed and produce a foal on my own. I did buy one of these mares pregnant, and did have to go through the experience of losing my first mini foal. I did EVERYTHING RIGHT, and still lost my foal and almost my mare as well. I live 15 minutes from one of the top equine hospitals in the country and that is where we ended up. By the time I got through that horrendous experience I had lost my foal and it had cost me more than $8,000. I still plan to breed on a small scale, but I am going to be a nervous wreck the entire time I am sure. As someone above stated, breeding minis can be a heartbreaking labor of love. I would venture to say that the people who are warning you on this topic mean nothing but the best for you, though they may have expressed it a bit roughly.

I personally welcome you to the wonderful world of Miniatures! I hope you are near others who share the hobby, as it is so fun to have a circle of friends to share it with! You would do well to find a local club to join. Up here in the Pacific NW, we have the Northwest Miniature Horse Club (AMHA) and the Evergreen Miniature Horse Club (AMHR), as well as several others...I am a member of quite a few, actually! I also am a member of the American Driving Society (ADS), and compete in Combined Driving Events. I spent a few years volunteering at CDEs and learned a TON! That is something you might want to consider while you are waiting for your little ones to mature to a point where you can drive them. You can also show them at breed shows in halter and liberty next year, which is a great way to get them out and exposed to the big, wide world. Having some friends who are experienced at showing will make that process a little less intimidating! At least that is how I felt when I got started.

Anyway, good luck and enjoy your kidz... hope you stick around here and join our wonderful community! If you live in the midwest, you might want to see if you can get to the AMHR National Show or AMHA World Show in the upcoming weeks, what a great intro to mini showing that would be for you!

 

[Minimor]

sigh. Some people here need to get over themselves! Floridachick, that was just plain snotty.

Charlotte is here asking for advice--that to me indicates that she is trying to learn. I wish I could say the same for everyone who gets into horses. Some of them know it all right from day one and make no effort to learn. Please, hunt up some of those people & give them your nasty lectures, they are the ones that deserve it. Don't chase away someone who is enthusiastic about her new horses and who genuinely wants to do the best she can with them.

Gads.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

You are the only one that has not made us feel like idiots for even thinking about raising mini's. My husband and I are both in our late 40's are semi-retired and with the horses 24/7.

PS. We look forward to your opinion in the future

For those who mentioned gelding, we have no intentions of gelding our colt.

No, you aren't idiots for wanting to raise minis. People are hinting that you are less than familier with the process to even begin to anticipate and manage the problems you WILL come up on. That is an awesome goal, one I'm SURE you can do with the right foundation. Do you build your house's roof before you find a plot? Start at the beginning:

1) Buy an adult, or even a big horse. Learn to handle them, how to work with them, how to manage injuries and general care. Learn what things you need to have on hand, and what skills you need to learn. Learn what the market in your area is, how to work with the horse and enjoy it, be that trail riding, driving, whathaveyou. If you are planning to breed, they have to do SOMETHING. People won't purchase horses that have absolutely no training or record.

2) Then buy a youngster, and learn all over again all of the above.

3) Then figure out what EXACTLY you need to have to breed quality horses, then purchase your breeding stock.

4) Then learn the breeding specific skills you need; I spent two years working on my Master's degree in reproduction. There are great short courses you can go take to learn what you need to know to do the job safely and effectively. Its not just throwing them together and watching. Not if you want to have horses in one piece when you finish.

You are jumping in WAY to far along in the process, skipping the basics and jumping to the most advanced stage you could. I've been working with horses for... I don't know, eight years? I've breed hundreds of horses (literally... not an exageration), foaled hundreds of foals... and I wouldn't purchase a foal because I lack that specific skill at training to do it properly. That's a skill you need a mentor or trainer to help with; its not something you learn from a website or a book, and there's where you are headed for disaster.

I think Floridachick is asking good questions... this is a huge red flag that usually ends in disaster!! I am (and I think others are too!) trying to open your eyes so that you can see the problem that is in the process of happening. By shutting out people who are trying to help you, and only listening to those who agree with you, you are going to end up in trouble. Get yourself a local trainer to work with you, and get some real life help! Online help is very limited, unfortunately, especially in something behavioral like training.

 

[shalamara minis]

I agree with MA on most things said. A common fence between them won't be enough in a very short time though. One thing not brought up is you said your horses were double reg. eligible. Why are they not reg yet? I would get this done asap. I hope the sellers gave you the proper paper work and not just said they were eligible. Good Luck!

 

[Miniv]

Good call KayKay!!!

Just for the record........Back in 1990, Larry and I didn't know SQUAT about horses AT ALL. We LEARNED.

We found some great horse people to learn from, and did tons of learning elsewhere.....it's been a constant education. We learned from both mentors and from hands on experience, and from vets how to show, handle, train, and foaling out.........We've foaled out over 200 babies by now.......

We ALL need to start from somewhere and we all have more to discover.........

Charlotte -- your minis are babies.........so you have time to learn more as they grow. You can grow TOGETHER. As long as you realize that your minis are like two year old human toddlers, and approach things that way, you just may survive! :bgrin

MA

 

[CHARLOTTE & JOHN]

Hello everyone,

This is John. I came home and found my wife crying. My father taught me if you didn't have anything good to say, not to say anything at all.

We have had one horse for 2 weeks and the other for less than a week. We have the paperwork for the 1st horse and the applications have been submitted by the previous owner for the second horse, we have copies and are waiting for the registrations to be complete and then we will send in the transfer forms for the filly.

We already have a farrier and he has worked with horses his whole life and takes care of 120 head of horses. He has already been here and trimmed the hooves for the colt. The filly had already had hers done recently by the previous owner. We have wormed both horses as well and will vaccinate them as soon as they are of age. We are in southern Indiana and we live within 30 miles of an amish community (the last time I checked they are very familiar with horses). We also have close neighbors who have or have had horses in the past. One of them already gave us 3 large rolls of hay for the winter and told us to let her know if we needed anymore. We didn't plan on bringing them home and throwing food and water out there and watch them have a foal.

Nathan - What did the cowboys do before there was college??

We are not in this to make money. If we were we would have bought older horses.

We have been monitoring this site for a few months and have used the information that we found to make some of our decisions even before we got the horses, like kind of hay, feed, wormers, clippers, etc. and my wife thought she was going to the right source for advice, and for the most part I believe she did, but, there are always negative people.

I want to thank everyone that showed their support and helped with some good positive, constructive comments and to those that offered phone and email support.

John

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Roll bales are dangerous, you do know that, right? We're trying to help you by showing you the problems.

Before college you learned from someone who's done it their whole life; just like college, actually. And if you didn't have someone to teach you, you did it yourself, screwed up, ruined a few horses before you got the tricks down. Is that the way you want to do things? Or would you rather do it the less painful, more rewarding way? Its up to you to choose. Start at the end, or start at the beginning?

We are not being negative; we're (I'm) trying to help. I've seen a looot of people get hurt doing this the way you are; be it emotional and/or physically. I'm about to take on another horse or four to help someone get out of the hole they dug themselves, and now I need to find homes for them. I don't care how experienced your farrier is; that's great, he can do a very good job with his part of the deal, but that doesn't help you whatsoever, except as far as feet are concerned. Its YOUR job to train them to be trimmed, not his. His is to do the trimming, AFTER you teach them how to stand politely. This is a HUGE job! You have a LOT of responcibility with there two horses. You and your wife came here looking for help, and when you get it you call us all evil and rude, and tell us if we don't praise you to be quiet and don't say anything at all (or so your father said). Many people here have done what you are doing, and gotten in trouble with it. Many others have seen others do what you are doing, as have I, and see that end terribly. "Growing up" with a foal is what made the PMU industry crash; people adopted these foals thinking their kids could train them and grow up together, only to ruin them and turn them over to rescues. This is not a new story! Its happened many times before, you are most certainly not the only couple that has made this type of mistake before. Please, take the advice offered for the goodhearted, honest advice it is. That's what you came here for, isn't it? Not just yes-men, but people who CARE and want to HELP?

 

[chandab]

Roll bales are dangerous, you do know that, right? We're trying to help you by showing you the problems.

Well put up round baled hay can be just as safe as square baled hay. The point is that it has to be put up right and covered to protect it from the weather. I feed round bales to the horses as do the majority of the people is this area, the horses are just fine. You just have to be sure it is good quality, clean, well put-up hay.

[You can just as easily put up bad small bales as large ones. I've come across just as much rotten square baled hay as round.]

 

[Floridachick]

I erased because It was not my intention to hurt anyones feelings.

 

[Hosscrazy]

Some of my best mentors from many years ago are still on this site (Susan O., MA to name a few)! In addition to helpful responses you will receive here, you might also want to pick up a copy of a book by Barbara Naviaux called MINIATURE HORSES: Their Care, Breeding and Coat Colors.

Best wishes with your new little ones!

Liz R.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Roll bales are dangerous, you do know that, right? We're trying to help you by showing you the problems.

Well put up round baled hay can be just as safe as square baled hay. The point is that it has to be put up right and covered to protect it from the weather. I feed round bales to the horses as do the majority of the people is this area, the horses are just fine. You just have to be sure it is good quality, clean, well put-up hay.

[You can just as easily put up bad small bales as large ones. I've come across just as much rotten square baled hay as round.]

Yes, the HAY can be safe, but not for two mini foals

We use hundreds of roundbales each year; but they are eaten and replaced three days after being introduced. Two mini foals aren't going to eat 800-2000lbs of hay fast enough to keep it fresh, nor is it safe to put that large of a bale in with them. And since they are seperated, they EACH have a full roundbale. That isn't safe! Roundbales aren't proper feed for this small of an opperation. Nice soft timothy hay would be much nicer, and much fresher. Unless you are forking the hay to them, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Is this couple experienced enough to tell the difference between mediocere hay and high quality hay? Do they know what to look for? Just because the outside of the bale is good doesn't mean the inside is, so they could look fine when the farrier or the hay salesman is there, until they are opened.

 

[tagalong]

This is John. I came home and found my wife crying. My father taught me if you didn't have anything good to say, not to say anything at all.

John - that is a bit unfair. Basically, you are saying that unless everyone agrees with you and applauds your decisions - that they should shut up...

:

That, my friend - is no way to learn anything...

We are trying to help, John. If it is not what you want to hear... I am sorry. IMO starting off with the intent to have a stallion is a a big mistake. You do not need the extra headaches. Nor does he. If you have been reading the board - especially during foaling season with all the problems and sadness that can result - then breeding two horses of undetermined quality together "just because" or "for fun" - is perhaps not the wisest approach to take. I apologize if that sounds a bit rude - but I truly cannot think of another way to say it. I would strongly suggest that you geld the colt. Enjoy him. Show them. Drive them. And leave the breeding in the distant future for now.... there are many quality minis out there to chose from if you want to add to your herd before then!

:

We have been monitoring this site for a few months and have used the information that we found to make some of our decisions even before we got the horses, like kind of hay, feed, wormers, clippers, etc. and my wife thought she was going to the right source for advice, and for the most part I believe she did, but, there are always negative people.

Negative?? No - we are trying to help. :no: *frustrated*

You have had minis for two weeks. Read the board for a while previously to get valuable info - which was a good idea!

: And yet you can determine that some of our input and experience is all wrong - and "negative" ???

We want you to be able to enjoy your minis... and are simply offering suggestions/opinions on what would work best in your situation...

We just sent a 3 year old ex-show horse (showed as a junior stallion and is now a gelding) to a new home on a 30 day trial. His delighted new owner is not horsey in any way - a complete beginner - right down to haviing to be shown how to tie a quick release knot or a bowline... how to put on a halter, how to act around him in a calm manner, how to discipline correctly, how to feed - everything! He can help her learn - and at the end of 30 days, if she has decided that maybe this is the wrong time to have a horse... he can come home. Both sides are very happy with this arrangement - as is the gelding... and when the phone rings with yet another question I smile and explain/coach. And I am going down there to help out again this weekend - to make sure he is not pushing her around

:. She already loves him. Lucky guy - he has a beautiful modern barn all to himself. If his prospective owner decides she wants to get into minis, then we will add another older mare and continue to help them all out.

I am glad that help is being offered to you this way as well... but expecting only glowing praise.... well, it is unrealistic. If I was close I would be glad to help. And I would still suggest that you geld your colt and enjoy learning together without hormones getting in the way. Your filly and a gelding could be a herd and socialize together - with no fear of an early and problematical pregnancy. Better for the horses.... better/easier for you. I worry that you are setting yourself up for a lot of headaches and heartaches.... JMO after 19 1/2 years working full time with horses... in service to the Horse...

I think starting out with a couple of geldings - or a gelding and a mare - maybe one who already drove - might have been a better idea ...but that is just my opinion.... based on experience, a liberal dose of horse sense... and a smattering of horsemanship...

:

But - you already have "the kids" and we can all try and help you along the way....

: ... there is no such thing as a stupid question - and there is more than one solution or approach to any situation....

*edited to fix lame typos*

 

[Relic]

Wow talk about sucking the joy of new ownership..how so rude the way some come across. :no:

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We looked at some older horses and saw many health and attitude problems so we decided to get the young ones and grow and learn together.

I thought that, too. I was 18- I read all the books, got all the magazines, couldn't wait to get my first horse. I bought a two year old Arabian. We would "learn together." Six months later I came off of him, and to this day, 27 YEARS later, I still have back problems. And he destroyed my confidence. I don't ride anymore. I am afraid of big horses (that's why I have Minis now).

And don't think because they are little, they can't hurt you. A friend had her leg broken, today, by a Mini. And she knows what she's doing.

We're not trying to be mean, honest. It's just that most of us have been there, done that. We don't want you nor your new babies to be hurt. If you've been here long you should see that we are blunt, frank, and brutally honest. We won't sugarcoat anything. We won't lie to you. We will, however, tell you when we think you are making a grave mistake.

And for your question, they really need to be separate, in a confined place where you can catch them more easily. Even if you put a front on your shed with a door, something to stop them from running away. Don't always catch them and do things with them. Catch, reward, let go. Make them WANT to be your friend. If they are together, they have each other and humans just aren't good enough anymore. Plus, they "feed" off of each other. One runs, the other thinks "she's running, I better, too!" and then the FIRST one thinks "He's running, I better run faster!" and on and on it goes.... And if you try to take just one one, the other may freak out. I have two weanling Mini Shetlands and you wanna talk about insane? She will try to CRAWL up the wall to get away. Once we have her, she's OK. They are not afraid of running you over, either, to get away. The colt isn't as bad, but he still will run around insanely to get away.

Lucy

 

[CHARLOTTE & JOHN]

As for the Hay, we know what was in the field and saw it cut and baled. It is now stored on a wooden floor trailer a foot off the ground and coverd away from weather. It has stayed dry from day 1. It will be hand fed to the foals not the whole bale dropped into the pen.

John

 

[qtrrae]

Congratulations! CHARLOTTE & JOHN on your 2 new precious babies!

It sounds to me like you are more then willing to learn all you possibly can about the best care for your little ones. You will find so much advice and opinions (as you have already found out) You have 2 very precious little ones and I can tell you want what is the best for them. There is so much good information on the LB Forum, you have come to the right place to learn from some of the best, you will just need to decipher what really applies to your situation.

Please do not be afraid to ask questions and please do NOT be discouraged by some of the replies you are getting.

Hugs to you and WELCOME to the LB Forum and to THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF MINIATURE HORSES!!

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I have read all the responses and do think some could have made the point without being so blunt and yes rude.

This couple are new but we all were at some point they came and asked 1 question how to make catching their new babies easier. Thats all. They didnt ask about gelding or birthing or any of the other things that posters have offered suggestions for.

We have only had minis for 7 years and yes we have made mistakes. The horses in our lives before that were big horses and ponies and as we all know the minis are different in many ways. . It can be done and our first minis were rescues themselves we took them out of a very bad situation and they are still here. One is not what I would now consider breeding quality and the other though breeding quality can not be bred due to a thyroid problem. But these are all things we have learned sometimes the hard way.

To answer your original question, First I would separate them and spend lots of time with each of them individually Praise praise praise you will quickly find that sweet spot where each loves to be scratched Time and patience are the key. Educate yourselves as much as you can and if there are horse people around you let them help. When we got our minis they were the 1st in our area so there was no one to help us but we have learned and continue to do so. I spend time with each foal just sitting in the stall even before they are weaned and even more time after. If you are semi retired you have lots of time to spend with each of your babies and they will bond with you just give them lots of time to do that. It makes it easier to convince them to do what you want. I have no idea if the conformation of your colt is good enough to use for breeding but as has been said here if you separate them you have 3 years to decide. You also have plenty of time to learn the things you need to know without being bashed for buying a filly and a colt with the vision of breeding someday. If no one ever had a dream there would be no National Champions.

I do think the intentions of the posters was good but the tone was such that I can surely see why your feelings were hurt. The breeders who sold you these foals should be your first contact they should be willing to help with any questions you have but that said if they arent open for questions you HAVE come to the right place dont let this first response scare you off there are many here who will help you.

Dont be surprised if they still tell you the best way would have been this or that but the fact remains that you now have these two lives in your care and you coming here for help only reinforces that you want what is best for them. If no newbies ever buy horses where would this industry be.

Feel free to PM me if I can be of any help.

Nita

 

[shalamara minis]

Hey floridachick and nathan, to your suprize he has put up the hay properly and doesn't plan on just free feeding it. And where I am round bales sauare bales and the 80# bales I feed all come from the same field, are raked with the same rake and the only difference is the baler.

 

[tagalong]

This couple are new but we all were at some point they came and asked 1 question how to make catching their new babies easier. Thats all. They didnt ask about gelding or birthing or any of the other things that posters have offered suggestions for

Well, some of us saw a few red flags waving - so please excuse us for attempting to address some concerns and offer suggestions and help. Who knew that was wrong?? :new_shocked: Better to discuss something ahead of a potential problem and offer solutions... that is how we all learned along the way. Because someone cared enough to say - just a minute - let's talk about this.... why this way? maybe this idea will work better... this is what worked for us... maybe try this other idea that worked for someone else... etc.

Discussion. That is how we learn. An exchange of ideas..... and HELP. Where all opinions matter - all opinions count - and they can be weighed and evaluated as needed...

As in....

John & Charlotte - we used to feed and store round bales on end the same way - and slowly unrolled them like a big cinnamon bun. That way it wass easy to see if the bale had gotten dusty or gone "off" in any way... and if so, then we could discard the rest. It worked well for us when round bales were the best option...

:

*arrrrgghh - more typos... one day I will learn how to type... *