Open the AMHA Studbook to Hardship AMHR Horses

[valshingle]

Jody - Are you going to the convention?

 

[sfmini]

No. Can't afford to this year. My convention money went towards my Sister In Law's funeral.

 

[valshingle]

Sorry to hear that - both the death and the convention.

Well, I've done everything I can to get my voice heard, just have to hope those present agree with me. Wish I could afford to attend the conventions and be more involved. I can go to the ones in TX, but the annual ones are a bit out of my reach these days. Hopefully my job situation will improve and I can be more involved again.

 

[Charlotte]

financial instability of the org.

I would just like to quickly correct this misstatement.

AMHA is in a much more stable financial position than many other equine breed organizations, some of which are in very bad shape. AMHA made a substantial profit last year.

 

[sfmini]

Charlotte, good catch, missed that comment and had to go back and find the comment.

In that post it was said that the money would allow AMHA to have more shows. AMHA only puts on 4 shows a year and only 4. That would be the 3 Championship shows and the World Show.

All other shows are put on by AMHA affiliated clubs and those clubs do not get any money from AMHA.

 

[Charlotte]

Right Jody! Thanks for catching that show one too.

Also on the AMHA shows....ANYONE can put on shows. It doesn't have to be a club. So if there are no shows in your area get with a group of people or get some clubs to go together and put on your shows. We do that here in OK with a TX club.

AND, now there are the new format shows that make it SO easy! Why don't I see people talking about them? Half day Community Shows that can be put on at the local round up club or in someone's back pasture! Same with the Youth Performance shows! An easy and inexpensive way to get started with shows and to get interest generated in YOUR area! Talk about a marketing tool!

 

[albahurst]

Charlotte- Can you share a bit more about the format shows. I didn't realize they were a reality.

 

[Charlotte]

Oh yes Peggy! They are very much a reality. Call or email the AMHA show department and request a 2012 Rule Book be sent to you.

Page 81, D2 AMHA Youth Performance Events.

Page 81 D3 AMHA Community Shows.

These are full pointed AMHA shows. They require measuring. They require an AMHA approved show manager (anyone can take the open book test and become a manager for your shows) Horses shall not be penalized for showing unclipped.

Also request from the office the Show Manager's packet and this will have a lot more information for you. ANYONE can put on these shows!

Actually, the Oklahoma club will be putting one on this year....I think one of the Community Shows. So nice

No hotels, stall fees not necessary unless you just want a stall...nice.

I've even been thinking about one of the Youth Performance Shows in one of our paddocks. Halter Obstacle, Driving Obasticle, Hunter, Jumper....with the various age breaks.

 

[kaykay]

I would just like to quickly correct this misstatement.
AMHA is in a much more stable financial position than many other equine breed organizations, some of which are in very bad shape. AMHA made a substantial profit last year.

What is the amount of the substantial profit?

I was though referring to when big farms basically had to bail out AMHA were they were about to go under. Remember the auctions etc? Then just a couple years later they were on the brink again. Last time I looked the year end statement was not great but I think the last one I saw was 2010 or maybe 2009?

It is in AMHA's best interest to back some shows and get them going again. It is a huge financial undertaking to put on a show and especially to get that show to make money or at least not loose money. I don't know a whole lot of clubs that can take that risk right now.

Back when I first started there was no way I had the knowledge (or even the finances) to put on a show. All I knew was that in Illinois there were no AMHA shows, but there were tons of ASPC/AMHR shows. I would say that is the single biggest reason I sold all my AMHA horses and stopped buying new ones.

I also think this is why the World show has such low attendance.

For sure allowing AMHR horses to hardship would bring in a lot of revenue that could be shared with clubs to get more shows going.

Now this is just my opinion from someone who has watched for a lot of years. There are great and good with every registry!

 

[Little Hooves]

Hey everyone, I apologize if my petition comes across controversial. But I did want to address those who had concerns or disagreements about the inbreeding article. It was just meant to address the downside - it isn't to say that a few line-bred horses are going to send the breed into a tailspin, but it is addressing that it can become problematic - and historically, it has been problematic for many breeds. The only solution to a high inbreeding coefficient is to outcross... and to outcross, you kind of need an open studbook

It's not to say, however, that you can't get a wonderful animal out of line breeding. This happens slightly more often than crossing two unrelated horses. But alternatively, you also experience a higher rate of culls with linebreeding/inbreeding than crossing two unrelated horses. It works both ways.

I had my husband write the inbreeding article after collecting information we learned about "purebred" horses, dogs, or anything. The inbreeding coefficient is a guide that tracks how related individuals of a breed are to one another and the higher this number becomes, the more health problems crop up in the breed. When an immune system becomes homozygous, the animal has trouble fighting disease, or may have metabolic or fertility issues. It has only been my observation that many people practice line breeding in the miniature horse industry, and to continue this practice at the rate we're going with closed books could shorten the longevity of AMHA registered horses faster than we realize. There are cases in sheep where a registry had to be reopened because the sheep were becoming too inbred, resulting in higher lamb losses and infertility in adult sheep. Line breeding isn't completely bad, as it is a way to assure a specific look of an animal with homozygous traits. But extreme caution should be used because you're also concentrating negative recessive traits that will show up later in the breed when more and more horses become homozygous.

I think the short term, the pay-off of line breeding is great because you can get some amazing looking animals that look like their amazing looking parents. But where the animal's health is compromised, how long can you continue this practice? I know some registries have to manage their inbreeding coefficient very carefully, based off the research I have done. We haven't required this in the miniature horse breed yet because it is still so young, and currently has an open studbook.

Also, a big "negative recessive" trait that miniature horse breeders should especially be wary of with closing the books is the dwarf gene. To close the books NOW, BEFORE we can even test horses to eliminate the gene is probably not the best idea. We can always kick out any foal that has dwarf traits, but we can't spot the carrier horses.

As for the books closing at the end of 2013, I am prepared this will happen, but I am hopeful the proposed rule change for hardshipping will pass. I think there are more benefits than negatives. If we're talking value of horses, the only thing going to really impact a horse's value now is simple economics - supply and demand. With all the liquidations going on, this is the problem we should be trying to solve: how to create more demand!

 

[garyo]

I can potentially see the EC intervening, as they have in the past, even though this should be a membership vote.

Just to clarify the EC's role: I will argue that the EC will not and can not intervene in this and I will back up my argument by referring to the AMHA bylaws, specifically Article VIII, Section 2 Duties which states:

The duties of the Executive Committee shall be to act for

the Board on matters requiring resolution between Board

meetings, personnel matters and on disciplinary matters

as provided in the General Rules and Regulations and

other duties as directed by the Board.

Obviously, this does not meet the duties of the EC as specified by the bylaws.

And Val, I must have missed your e-mail, but would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Gary

 

[valshingle]

Gary - In the past, the EC and/or BOD has acted when they shouldn't have, in direct violation of the rule book. I know, I was there to see it. I remember the Bylaws committee chairperson pointing it out during an annual convention and still it happened. They interceded in the 'base of the withers' rule change; something that had already been voted on by the membership. While I was glad that particular rule change didn't go through, in my opinion the BOD/EC didn't have the authority to intercede. They can, however, make extraordinary rule changes to safeguard the financial integrity of the association; I guess that can be interpreted in different ways.

In reviewing the rule book, the BOD probably used Article XVI, D, to change the base of the withers measurement rule change. I do not agree with them doing it, just pointing out how they got around the 2 year non-amendment rule.

 

[Little Hooves]

I was dismayed to hear back from one AMHA director who is against allowing AMHR horses to hardship in - strictly because they think that by limiting the number of AMHA horses the prices will go back up.

This to me, is unfortunate, because it is a theory without supporting facts. I would like to see their research.

The truth is it always comes down to supply and demand. Other closed registries are not high-value simply because the horses are registered. Look at Arabs, Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses. Their prices are everywhere and in some cases given away for free. If anything, their papers only are used as a means of identification.

If the desire is to attempt to reduce the supply of registered miniature horses, this just hurts the members of AMHA who still must compete with the other miniature horses listed for sale, unregistered or AMHR, etc. Papers aren't so much the influence of price anymore because miniature horses are so plentiful right now.

That really was the sole reason for not wanting AMHR horses in the registry?

 

[targetsmom]

Also, a big "negative recessive" trait that miniature horse breeders should especially be wary of with closing the books is the dwarf gene. To close the books NOW, BEFORE we can even test horses to eliminate the gene is probably not the best idea. We can always kick out any foal that has dwarf traits, but we can't spot the carrier horses.

I wondered if anyone was going to raise this issue. Until we know - if and when a test is developed - how many dwarf carriers there are among AMHA registered horses, I think it is premature to fully close the registry. Being able to bring in AMHR registered horses that are NOT dwarf carriers would be something to consider.

 

[Becky]

Being able to bring in AMHR registered horses that are NOT dwarf carriers would be something to consider.

I don't want to start an argument, but exactly which horses are those?? Since the majority of AMHA registered horses evolved from AMHR/ASPC horses, wouldn't it be safe to assume that AMHR horses also carry dwarf genes? I know all of my horses are double registered AMHA/AMHR and they have the exact same pedigree in both registries.

 

[Eohippus]

I don't want to start an argument, but exactly which horses are those?? Since the majority of AMHA registered horses evolved from AMHR/ASPC horses, wouldn't it be safe to assume that AMHR horses also carry dwarf genes? I know all of my horses are double registered AMHA/AMHR and they have the exact same pedigree in both registries.

I'm not that familiar with all of AMHR's rules, as I'm not as involved with AMHR as I am AMHA even though my horses are registered in it. But doesn't AMHR allow ASPC horses that meet the high qualifications to be registered as AMHR? So in theory you can have some shetlands that don't have the same pedigrees brought into AMHR then brought into AMHA, yes? And did AMHR close its books? If not then, again in theory, couldn't you have a horse of another breed (say, Hackney) that qualifies in height be hardshipped into AMHR then registered into AMHA because of it? That would allow new blood that doesn't carry the dwarf gene.

 

[targetsmom]

I don't want to start an argument, but exactly which horses are those?? Since the majority of AMHA registered horses evolved from AMHR/ASPC horses, wouldn't it be safe to assume that AMHR horses also carry dwarf genes? I know all of my horses are double registered AMHA/AMHR and they have the exact same pedigree in both registries.

That was not to imply AMHR horses would be any LESS likely to carry the dwarf gene - only that ONCE A DWARF TEST IS AVAILABLE, then any NON carriers can be identified. So any AMHR horses that tested as NON-dwarf carriers I would think might be desirable to add to the AMHA registry.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'm not that familiar with all of AMHR's rules, as I'm not as involved with AMHR as I am AMHA even though my horses are registered in it. But doesn't AMHR allow ASPC horses that meet the high qualifications to be registered as AMHR? So in theory you can have some shetlands that don't have the same pedigrees brought into AMHR then brought into AMHA, yes? And did AMHR close its books? If not then, again in theory, couldn't you have a horse of another breed (say, Hackney) that qualifies in height be hardshipped into AMHR then registered into AMHA because of it? That would allow new blood that doesn't carry the dwarf gene.

AMHR is considered semi-open registry. It accepts hardship of horses that are registered with AMHA, ASPC, and Fabella. However it does not accept any outside miniatures like AMHA does as of right now any mini that fits the height limit and follows to the standard can receive papers by hardship, so right now AMHA is considered an open registry. But in 2013 AMHA will be closed and that means no outside blood will come in and will potentially limit itself to improve.

I think its just silly to compare one registry over another. They are both height registrys, one just accepts only Under horses, however AMHRs B division is doing great. We can't compare what registry brings in more money as AMHR accepts more horses every year, and more show at the National show every year because of the B division. It looks like to me that AMHA's numbers were strong at their World show. I also think its silly to say AMHA has more dwarf carriers then AMHR when many of those horses are double registered in both so who's to say AMHR has any less? There is no test, which is why I think the other forum member is saying that AMHA is rushing into this.

I agree I think AMHA was very much prestigious back in the day, now I think neither one is more prestigious then the other. AMHA has its own route, AMHR has another. I really think AMHA wants to stop the ASPC bred horses coming into AMHA and I understand thats not what they want for their registry. I hope this works out for AMHA I really do, I just don't see them closing the registry will benefit them very much, hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[Lewella]

I don't want to start an argument, but exactly which horses are those?? Since the majority of AMHA registered horses evolved from AMHR/ASPC horses, wouldn't it be safe to assume that AMHR horses also carry dwarf genes? I know all of my horses are double registered AMHA/AMHR and they have the exact same pedigree in both registries.

Just a point of clarification - there is no dwarfism documented or even rumored to exist in the ASPC gene pool.

 

[kaykay]

Mary Lou

I never intended my post to come off as registry bashing! I want all registries to do well as that is in the best interest of the horses and members. That is why I included this:

Now this is just my opinion from someone who has watched for a lot of years. There are great and good with every registry!

Heck there are a ton of things that could be better in AMHR and I am usually pretty vocal about that too!