Open the AMHA Studbook to Hardship AMHR Horses

[Amoreminiatures]

Thank You Lewella for pointing that out and also you can not hardship a registered AMHR into ASPC, either they have their ASPC papers or they never will. I strongly feel the genetic gene pool is NOT strong enough to close the door at this point period, and to think that would rise the value is a beat I for one as a OVER 20 YEAR member of AMHA CERTAINLY would NOT be willing to take, it is truly AWFUL at the current market in these wonderful little horses that I INVESTED A LOT of money into and lets just say today I am not reaping the rewards of such investment.. HOWEVER everytime I look at these little loves my heart swells but my bank account........Not so much... Maybe in time we can revisit this topic but my vote would be NO for today, and believe me I wish I was able to attend the Annual meeting but at this moment it was not likely to happen.. I MISS the days when there was enough shows in this area to earn some point achieve some goals and participate in AMHA on the show level, but as the cost of the shows kept going up and participation when down away went the shows and now to attend is a distance and alot of monies for very little competition. I feel like it is one those remember when moments.. Sorry if I offended anyone, but BELIEVE ME I am INVESTED GREATLY in AMHA also.....

 

[Margo_C-T]

I am a Lifetime member of AMHA; don't currently belong to AMHR because I no longer care to breed or to breed show in either.I have private opinions about both registries which I won't air here; my point in posting is to comment on a couple of the points brought up.

On linebreeding: I agree that it can and has worked well on many occasions; however, the KEY is the KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE of the breeder(s) involved, I believe. IMO, there is and will likely always be a high percentage of folks who consider themselves breeders that lack the depth and 'sense' of both to reliably practice it. And, it should always be remembered, it is STILL always something of a 'crap shoot' when you breed animals, as to the quality of the resulting offspring. Ergo...a wider genetic pool is a better idea.

It must be remembered that ANYTIME something is 'hardshipped',ALL of the standards(especially HEIGHT, IMO!) MUST be strictly adhered to, to uphold the rules and ethical reputation of the registry from whom acceptance is being solicited.

I believe it to be almost certain that there are dwarf carriers in both the AMHA and AMHR registered population...but as others have noted, to totally 'shut off' the possibility of future inclusion of tested NON-carriers from AMHR in the AMHA gene pool seems kind of short-sighted. Why not wait until a reliable test is developed and able to be put to use?

All this said...I would support a properly-constructed move to allow AMHR-onlys to hardship into AMHA.Years back, I went ahead and hardshipped all the minis I then owned, except for one elderly mare, who was here to stay for the rest of her life, into AMHR. All were honestly AMHA-only in height; I felt it would only improve their chances of saleability should I decide to sell, as all were/are either well-trained in performance and/or of halter/breeding quality.

I do have a question...if there is no evidence of ANY dwarfism in the ASPC gene pool, yet it is now pretty widely acknowledged that miniatures are directly descended from Shetlands, where would those of you in the know say that the dwarfism 'came from'? A one-time mutation? Multiple mutations? And if so,any thoughts/theories on when and where?

And, though I agree that the AMHA(AND the AMHR, for that matter!)SHOULD BE 'us', the membership, the reality of it is that the AMHA, at least(I am not UTD on AMHR's rules/practices), the voting is,as has ever been so, being done by an increasingly TINY percentage of the membership...only those who can afford to personally attend the National meetings.I would personally LOVE to see someone (No, it won't be me...been there, done that...and am not getting any younger!)updated serious work on workable ways to accomplish access to voting by ALL eligible, bonafide members!

Just some personal observations/opinions.

Margo in NM

 

[Lewella]

On linebreeding: I agree that it can and has worked well on many occasions; however, the KEY is the KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE of the breeder(s) involved, I believe. IMO, there is and will likely always be a high percentage of folks who consider themselves breeders that lack the depth and 'sense' of both to reliably practice it. And, it should always be remembered, it is STILL always something of a 'crap shoot' when you breed animals, as to the quality of the resulting offspring. Ergo...a wider genetic pool is a better idea.

You are so correct! If you are going to linebreed you must be willing to cull ruthlessly and few people today have the stomach for that.

I know many of you don't follow the big horse world closely but in the last few years the number of genetic recessive diseases that have come to light is frightening. Arabians have an expanding list recessive genetic diseases including Cerebellar Abiotrophy, Lavender Foal Syndrome, and Severe Combined Immunodeficiency. Along with the long known problems with HYPP, Quarter Horses now have Hereditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia and Glycogen Branching Enzyme Deficiency to deal with as well. Every one of these diseases was first seen in linebred/inbred animals.

I do have a question...if there is no evidence of ANY dwarfism in the ASPC gene pool, yet it is now pretty widely acknowledged that miniatures are directly descended from Shetlands, where would those of you in the know say that the dwarfism 'came from'? A one-time mutation? Multiple mutations? And if so,any thoughts/theories on when and where?

Though Shetland blood is the primary influence in the miniature gene pool it is obviously not the only genetic contributor. Coat color is a great exampe of that. Champagne does not exist in the Shetland gene pool yet there are several different Champagne bloodlines in miniatures. Appaloosa spotting has been prohibited since the beginning of both the ASPC and the SPSBS (the British Shetland registry) yet it exists in the miniature gene pool.

 

[LaVern]

No dwarfs in the Shetlands? I owned a papered one, fifty years ago, at least he looked like one, but then more than likely he had the wrong papers. I probably was the only one in the World that had dishonest papers though.

 

[Suzie]

I will most likely get flamed for this, but really, closing the registry to stop the registration of dwarf gene carrying horses is so obsurd. Like closing the barn door after the horse is 1/2 mile down the road folks. It is here, in both registries and that is a simple fact.

We don't need to close the registry to hardshipping. We need to increase breeding education, information and ethics.

Closing the registry only closes off a source of income for honest hardshipping. It does not erradicate or even stem the flow of unethical people who will continue to purposefully breed dwarf characteristics because they are so "cute" and they quite frankly from my personal observance sell for a considerable bit more than a conformationally correct horse at the same sale venue. At least with hardshipping, done under supervision with bone fide witnesses, you KNOW that horse does not show obvious dwarf traits.

Flame away.

 

[Tabetha]

I spoke with my AMHA person for #1 region.

She told me that this rule was already decided on several years ago, and will go into effect as of 12/31/13.

She said if anyone has horse at least 3yrs of age or will be as of that date, then they can send in their hardship paperwork.

I agree that the hard-shipping should remain open for those horses with impeccable standard.

Just thought I would post what I am aware of...

 

[Suzie]

This is a "done deal" for 2013. No doubt about it. I am personally going to hardship in a horse this year. I have waited 4 years to watch this horse grow and now I am convinced he deserves to be hardshipped in at a high cost because he is nice enough.

I have a filly that I would like to hardship in, but this year it is not economically feasible. So I made the choice for the colt in hopes I could recoup my investment quicker with him. If they close hardshippin forever, well, that is just a loss for AMHA on the filly. I won't breed her here and not sure if I will sell her. One thing for sure, any foals she produces (if the registry stands as is) will never generate one dime for AMHA down the road.....if I don't get a chance to hardship her in.

 

[valshingle]

I spoke with my AMHA person for #1 region.

She told me that this rule was already decided on several years ago, and will go into effect as of 12/31/13.

She said if anyone has horse at least 3yrs of age or will be as of that date, then they can send in their hardship paperwork.

I agree that the hard-shipping should remain open for those horses with impeccable standard.

Just thought I would post what I am aware of...

What is being voted on at the AMHA convention is a proposal that would allow hardshipping a horse with AMHR papers (who meets all other requirements) into AMHA.

Currently, there will be no hardshipping into AMHA as of 12/21/13. So you have until then to hardship in 3 yr olds and older.

 

[jeniemac]

I would be behind this if the same AMHR mini was not reg. ASPC.

 

[valshingle]

I would be behind this if the same AMHR mini was not reg. ASPC.

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't you want any ASPC that measured 34" or under to be allowed to hardship into AMHA? Many of the founding miniature horse were Shetlands that were quite small. I have seen some triple registered (AMHA/AMHR/ASPC) horses that are stunning and some are not. There are different ranges of quality in all the breeds.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I agree and a lot of your Under mini shetlands aren't the extreme shetland type that you see in the B division, but I think with how you feel is one of the reasons why AMHA wants to close and one of the reasons why I don't see this proposal passing.

 

[AshleyNicole]

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't you want any ASPC that measured 34" or under to be allowed to hardship into AMHA? Many of the founding miniature horse were Shetlands that were quite small. I have seen some triple registered (AMHA/AMHR/ASPC) horses that are stunning and some are not. There are different ranges of quality in all the breeds.

The founding Shetlands look nothing like the Shetlands in the AMHR show ring today. Rowdy and GMB were basically Shetlands and they look nothing like even some of the 34" and under Shetlands of today. I may get flamed but to me anyway AMHR is turning into a smaller division of ASPC and from talking to some of the judges this past year that is what the goal is. They know that people prefer a double registered horse and if that horse happens to be ASPC/AMHR instead of AMHA/AMHR thats better for them as they money stays in AMHR. I can understand that from a business stance but I prefer the look of AMHA type. Flame me if you like but this was what we were told from several AMHR judges this past year and why we are switching to AMHA shows.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I can understand that from a business stance but I prefer the look of AMHA type. Flame me if you like but this was what we were told from several AMHR judges this past year and why we are switching to AMHA shows.

Ditto here. I just don't like the way some of the pony-bred horses heads look like now. I like the short between the eye and nostril and wide between the eye look of the AMHA horse. Some of the ponies have such long, narrow heads...not a look I favor.

In fact, I just bought an AMHA/AMHR gelding to show this year! With the head type I adore!!

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

The founding Shetlands look nothing like the Shetlands in the AMHR show ring today. Rowdy and GMB were basically Shetlands and they look nothing like even some of the 34" and under Shetlands of today. I may get flamed but to me anyway AMHR is turning into a smaller division of ASPC and from talking to some of the judges this past year that is what the goal is. They know that people prefer a double registered horse and if that horse happens to be ASPC/AMHR instead of AMHA/AMHR thats better for them as they money stays in AMHR. I can understand that from a business stance but I prefer the look of AMHA type. Flame me if you like but this was what we were told from several AMHR judges this past year and why we are switching to AMHA shows.

I agree completely with this. While I do think many shetlands are pretty it is just not what we are wanting to raise.

 

[Minimor]

I'm late getting around to looking at this topic, but now that I have read through it, I have to comment.

Do some people seriously believe that a limited gene pool if AMHA closes is anything like a successful line breeding program? I’m afraid I do not see how one of those has anything to do with the other. I know this has already been said but I will repeat it, just to keep my thoughts all in order. Yes, line breeding works, IF you do it right and if you choose the right individuals to base your line breeding program on. The thing is, for line breeding to be successful you must select your breeding stock for a specific reason—you do NOT just take whatever happens to be available and start linebreeding (or at least you shouldn’t do that). Someone pointed out to me today that AMHA could/should take a lesson from the Friesian breed--the Friesians have had a very small gene pool, and that gene pool does include dwarfism....with the breeding going on within that breed, dwarfism is now a huge problem for the breed. Eliminate dwarf carriers and they won't have many horses left. You can get a lot of info on the issue through a search on google. This exact same thing can happen in AMHA if it closes completely. Some people believe that all Miniature horses carry the dwarf gene now; I personally do not believe this is the case. If it were, we would see a lot more dwarf foals born than there actually are. However, a closed registry could very possibly lead to that very thing coming true in the not so distant future.

Dwarfism in the Shetlands…perhaps at one time it did exist. I cannot say for sure that it did or didn’t; I have heard more than one person say that they did see, sometime a long time ago, a Shetland pony that was a dwarf. So, I have to assume that it is entirely possible that there were a few dwarf Shetlands. However--I do believe people who say that now the ASPC Shetlands have no dwarfism. Think about it—what self respecting ASPC breeder wants a dwarf (or a dwarf producer) in his herd? A dwarf is the complete opposite of everything that a Shetland breeder is striving for. Pony breeders want long legs, slim bodies, long necks and above all—good movement. A dwarf has none of those things. It makes perfect sense that they would cull dwarfism from their herds, and there is no reason why they would not be successful in eliminating dwarfism from the breed. The majority of Mini breeders do not seem interested in eliminating dwarfism, they simply cover it up by breeding their dwarf producers to different horses in hopes that the gene won't make an appearance again. Start line breeding with some dwarf carriers and the gene will most certainly reappear--with increasing frequency.

I will stop there, though there is more I would like to say. maybe another time.

 

[Eohippus]

I'm late getting around to looking at this topic, but now that I have read through it, I have to comment.

Do some people seriously believe that a limited gene pool if AMHA closes is anything like a successful line breeding program? I'm afraid I do not see how one of those has anything to do with the other. I know this has already been said but I will repeat it, just to keep my thoughts all in order. Yes, line breeding works, IF you do it right and if you choose the right individuals to base your line breeding program on. The thing is, for line breeding to be successful you must select your breeding stock for a specific reason—you do NOT just take whatever happens to be available and start linebreeding (or at least you shouldn't do that). Someone pointed out to me today that AMHA could/should take a lesson from the Friesian breed--the Friesians have had a very small gene pool, and that gene pool does include dwarfism....with the breeding going on within that breed, dwarfism is now a huge problem for the breed. Eliminate dwarf carriers and they won't have many horses left. You can get a lot of info on the issue through a search on google. This exact same thing can happen in AMHA if it closes completely. Some people believe that all Miniature horses carry the dwarf gene now; I personally do not believe this is the case. If it were, we would see a lot more dwarf foals born than there actually are. However, a closed registry could very possibly lead to that very thing coming true in the not so distant future.

Dwarfism in the Shetlands…perhaps at one time it did exist. I cannot say for sure that it did or didn't; I have heard more than one person say that they did see, sometime a long time ago, a Shetland pony that was a dwarf. So, I have to assume that it is entirely possible that there were a few dwarf Shetlands. However--I do believe people who say that now the ASPC Shetlands have no dwarfism. Think about it—what self respecting ASPC breeder wants a dwarf (or a dwarf producer) in his herd? A dwarf is the complete opposite of everything that a Shetland breeder is striving for. Pony breeders want long legs, slim bodies, long necks and above all—good movement. A dwarf has none of those things. It makes perfect sense that they would cull dwarfism from their herds, and there is no reason why they would not be successful in eliminating dwarfism from the breed. The majority of Mini breeders do not seem interested in eliminating dwarfism, they simply cover it up by breeding their dwarf producers to different horses in hopes that the gene won't make an appearance again. Start line breeding with some dwarf carriers and the gene will most certainly reappear--with increasing frequency.

I will stop there, though there is more I would like to say. maybe another time.

I agree with this 100%

I can't wait for a dwarf gene test o become available

 

[stormy]

Just a few thoughts not in any particular order

Don't see a problem with closing AMHA, there are more AMHA registered horses then there are Shetlands in ASPC or several other horse breeds, just need to be responsible in our breeding to eliminate dwarfism without a test.

Will make me sad that some of my horses will not be able to be hardshipped AMHA but on the other hand we really don't need a third shetland registry either. Somewhere the miniature horse type should be able to grow and thrive and, like many others, I do prefer the AMHA type mini to the pony type.

Sure do wish AMHA would make a place for oversize offspring of two registered parents though. Have a few of those oversize AMHA bred minis and their foals have all stayed under but have to be hardshipped back in...what a loss to throw them away for an inch or less.

 

[LaVern]

Very well put as usual Minimor.

I have been following this as I am anxious to see which way they go. Not to say that it couldn't change next year. My guess, is that it will close and that at some time in the future, AMHA will start to realize what they are loosing by casting out their own taller horses.

But, you also made be think, perhaps the closing of the AMHA would be a good thing for ASPC horses. I don't know if it is a good thing that so many want to breed the Shetlands down that little again, in order to get them into AMHA. Getting them down 36" 38" inches is one thing, but when you start shooting for that triple registered thing. I don't know.

I would guess that is what happened before, only they threw away the Shetland papers so there was no record.

If it closes up it would lesson the incentive to breed them smaller and smaller.

Maybe it is an unwise move for the AMHA horse, but perhaps a good thing for the American Shetland Pony.

 

[kaykay]

Ditto here. I just don't like the way some of the pony-bred horses heads look like now. I like the short between the eye and nostril and wide between the eye look of the AMHA horse. Some of the ponies have such long, narrow heads...not a look I favor.

One of the biggest issues since I started is getting a nice head on a miniature horse. So many have heads that are as long as their neck. It doesn't matter if a horse is AMHA/AMHR or ASPC/AMHR there are bad heads.

I think this is a pretty Shetland head

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

One of the biggest issues since I started is getting a nice head on a miniature horse. So many have heads that are as long as their neck. It doesn't matter if a horse is AMHA/AMHR or ASPC/AMHR there are bad heads.

I think this is a pretty Shetland head

Very pretty but still a bit longer than I prefer...



My gelding, this is my type preference. Not the greatest pic, he was deciding if NoNoBadKitty was tasty.....