AMHA Hardship Closing

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Maple Hollow Farm

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It really bugs me that the AMHA is closing hardshipping, I feel like this is closing a source of income for the association and also is excluding quality horses that may be eligible. I have been thinking about this a lot as I hardshipped all my eligible horses this year but do have an AMHR B mare that produces A sized foals that in the future I would want to be able to hardship.

I guess my question is, what does it take to make a rule change? When does it have to be done? And how many people would stand behind it?

I personally feel they should keep the regular hardship fees the same but to add an AMHR to AMHA hardship fee at 1/2 price. If AMHR allows AMHA to hardship in I feel AMHA should do the same for R especially since all horses must be inspected. Even if they kept it open to just AMHR horses at the regular prices I feel it is better than closing it completely.

I just know that nothing is going to change if someone doesnt change it so I want to know if it is worth the effort and others will support it. I also have absolutely no idea how to do it or how to word it so looking for your thoughts and input.

Thanks for reading and look forward to all opinions!
 

Minimor

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I believe that there was already such a proposal (to still allow AMHR horses to be hardshipped even after regular hard shipping closes)--it was voted on and defeated.
 

mdegner

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Melinda, I am unsure what the reasoning was for closing hardshipping in 2013. We hardshipped our last mare this past spring, so now everyone is double-registered. I would be interested in the reasoning behind this, anyone know?
 

ohmt

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Last year's proposal was defeated mainly because of the way it was written, from what I heard from others. We had a long thread here about how others were going to submit something much better this year and I have heard nothing has been submitted so it will be closing. Had really hoped that a proposal to keep it open to AMHR registered horses would be submitted. I wish I had the time and means to write one up myself.
 

JMS Miniatures

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The organization and the members who voted to close it wants AMHA miniatures to become a recognized breed. I honestly don't think they want to see AMHR miniatures keep coming into AMHA anymore, that's how I personally see it. I have mixed feelings on it but I do think they are limiting themselves financially.

If they offered a sale like AMHR is doing for their last year to accept hardshipping of outside horses I would probably hardship in my 2 geldings just in case, but I can't afford at the prices they are asking so once it closes it closes my door to AMHA as well. I've stopped becoming a member to AMHA several years ago due to I financially can't keep being a member to both registries and I'm more involved with AMHR. I had seriously considered going back to AMHA in the past because I wasn't happy with how things were going with AMHR but with it closing it really limits my choices so I am staying with AMHR.
 

mel

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I am probably going to unintentionally step on toes or hurt feelings, however, this is my feelings on the issue. I fully understand wanting to be a recognized breed, but not at the expense of outcross genetics. Many breeds past and present use other "accepted" outcrosses to keep new DNA/Genetics flowing into the gene pool. Allow hardshipping on inspection, if it passes inspection allow the horse in. Don't just overlook the opportunity to bring in a quality animal just because it doesn't have AMHA papers.

I had been a member for many years of AMHA, had a few AMHA horses, I am also a member of AMHR/ASPC. (Now for the part that will probably offend a few people but again this is my feelings) I was working to aquire some under 34" reg. AMHR/ASPC horses including their offspring whom I had fully intended on going through the process of hardshipping to AMHA . When AMHA announced that they were closing the hardshipping process, I did make phone calls and did write letters. I waited hoping that the ideas of approved outcrossing would go through (and no I didn't write the proposal), but it was defeated. The bottom line is this.. AMHA lost a member that year, a member who did register, buy, and intended to breed AMHA horses and had intended to go back into the AMHA ring, a member who will continue to give her money to AMHR and ASPC to register, hardship, and promote her breeding in the show ring, a past member who will probably never rejoin AMHA because the door has been closed to a program that I spent much time and money on.

Again this is only my feelings, as a LB member who usually does not post very often, and usually just reads what others have written, I felt very strongly that I needed to post in this thread so that others would understand my views on this subject, not just those that I called, spoke with in person, or whom read the letters I wrote.

So flame suit is on
 

2minis4us

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I think the AMHA is shooting themselves in the foot closing hardshipping. What is the resoning behind it ?

It also irks me to have to pay so much every year to be a member, I am only doing it this year to register my foal and after that - no more.
 

Dontworrybeappy

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Closing the registry may be the best thing in the world for people with AMHA registered horses. If the registry is closed, than members can SUE to keep papers on any horses out of 2 AMHA parents that go over 34".

Precedents are already in place in TX, as the AQHA has lost several lawsuits causing them to allow horses previously thrown out, as in horses with "excess" white, cremellos, multiple embryo transfers from the same mare, etc. I believe they were fought as "restraint of trade".

So - for everyone who thinks a registered AMHA foal shouldn't lose it's papers for being 1/2" too tall, and that AMHA shouldn't lose the revenue.... now there will be a way to have taller horses retain their papers. Perhaps as breeding stock only, but still.

If that happens, perhaps more foals will be registered with AMHA, - as people won't feel like they are gambling the registration fees on the height of the horse, and that they've thrown it all away (fees, photos, DNA) if one foal is 1/2" taller than its full sibling... and all that jazz.

If the AQHA with its millions of members and lots of cash lost these lawsuits, what shot does AMHA have?
 

SilverRose Farms

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Every breed out there has a half breed or acceptable out crosses. Sometimes you have to earn the full papers by showing or competing enough in order to qualify for complete papers.

There is a huge number of people I know who are upset by this coming into effect.

I have 2 Stunning foals who will be under 34" They will not be 3 this year. Sadly they wont be able to be registered.

I have hardshipped a stallion before and its not JUST the 1200 AMHA gets but the inspection fees and all the this fee and that fee and this charge and that charge in order to get him registered. Do I regret it no.

The limited bloodlines and genetic pool is what worries me about having the book closed. So many breeds even with the ability to out cross end up with all kinds of genetic issues. The miniature horses already face major issues with the Dwarfs the stifle and leg issues the bite issues. If we limit our ability to bring in outside bloodlines then its only going to get harder and harder to find unrelated clean lines to cross onto.

The over height horses no I dont believe they should loose their papers. Or even not be allowed to show. Most breeds that have height restrictions have a "Breeding Stock" Class. Which are for horses that fall outside the "IDEAL" height or color. Like a paint or pinto that has a solid foal that foal is still registerable but as a Breeding stock. There are Breeding stock classes for POA's who don't have color or are too tall. They don't loose their papers because of it. They are simply moved into a Breeding Stock Class.

This is sometimes a huge way to get people into showing. As often Breeding stock are sold for less than the people would have to pay for a colored animal of the same quality. Sometimes Ive run into the fact that the BREEDING Stock classes have much better say Conformation or Movement than the colored horses because often times people are "Color" Blind. They see TONS of color pretty markings but dont look at the horse underneath that. The conformation or movement or anything they see simply pretty color. (I sadly know quite a few people like this)
 

mistyrose

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AMHA closed hardship to become a recognized breed. I don't think you can hardship into the Shetland book so think as it in similar terms. The closing of the books was done over several years to let any members that had horses they wanted to hardship when the rule changed still have time to do for those horses. Papers that list unknown, unknown are not very useful for making breeding decisions. All breeds close their books at some point. If the books aren't closed its just a record of horses. All my horses are registered with AMHA and AMHR. So if a baby goes over it loses its AMHA papers and continues only on the AMHR-B papers. The AMHA came into existence years ago over the desire of AMHR to expand to B animals. (According to what I have been told by those there at the time).

As I mentioned earlier the American Shetland Pony Club closed their books at sometime. They did later create the Modern Shetland but I believe those are specific papers. I don't believe they opened their original book back up. AMHA isn't closing their books to be against anyone but to grow into a breed from a registry.
 

mshasta88

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Closing the registry may be the best thing in the world for people with AMHA registered horses. If the registry is closed, than members can SUE to keep papers on any horses out of 2 AMHA parents that go over 34".

Precedents are already in place in TX, as the AQHA has lost several lawsuits causing them to allow horses previously thrown out, as in horses with "excess" white, cremellos, multiple embryo transfers from the same mare, etc. I believe they were fought as "restraint of trade".

So - for everyone who thinks a registered AMHA foal shouldn't lose it's papers for being 1/2" too tall, and that AMHA shouldn't lose the revenue.... now there will be a way to have taller horses retain their papers. Perhaps as breeding stock only, but still.

If that happens, perhaps more foals will be registered with AMHA, - as people won't feel like they are gambling the registration fees on the height of the horse, and that they've thrown it all away (fees, photos, DNA) if one foal is 1/2" taller than its full sibling... and all that jazz.

If the AQHA with its millions of members and lots of cash lost these lawsuits, what shot does AMHA have?
I was just getting ready to post something simaler to this, here it is

In a lot of ways I feel you are right. We shouldn’t close the registry right away and so sudden.

Here is another question that I wish would people considering finding a way to confront the AMHA about. I know that nearly everyone has had a problem with a horse that out grows their papers, Instead of revoking those papers, I would like to see the AMHA issue those horses breeding stock papers like APHA does for non colored paints.

How does everyone feel about this breeding stock suggestion for AMHA horse over there papers?
 
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Maple Hollow Farm

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I guess I dont necessarily see how having a closed registry is going to make the Miniature horse breed any more of a breed than it is now but I had heard that as being the reason for it closing. The post below is what I agree with if it is to stay closed, breed registries generally do have "breeding stock" divisions for horses that dont fit the standard of perfection for that breed. There are several oversized horses that have lost their papers simply to being a throwback to some taller ancestor and never produced an oversized foal after that so I really do agree that there should be a breeding stock division. From the feedback I have received so far I dont believe there are enough people willing to support reopening the books to waste my time creating a proposal. I still will stick with AMHA as I do prefer the type of horse that it promotes and have always gotten great service when I have needed to call the office, but also will keep showing in R as that is what we have a majority of shows for in our area.

Every breed out there has a half breed or acceptable out crosses. Sometimes you have to earn the full papers by showing or competing enough in order to qualify for complete papers.

There is a huge number of people I know who are upset by this coming into effect.

I have 2 Stunning foals who will be under 34" They will not be 3 this year. Sadly they wont be able to be registered.

I have hardshipped a stallion before and its not JUST the 1200 AMHA gets but the inspection fees and all the this fee and that fee and this charge and that charge in order to get him registered. Do I regret it no.

The limited bloodlines and genetic pool is what worries me about having the book closed. So many breeds even with the ability to out cross end up with all kinds of genetic issues. The miniature horses already face major issues with the Dwarfs the stifle and leg issues the bite issues. If we limit our ability to bring in outside bloodlines then its only going to get harder and harder to find unrelated clean lines to cross onto.

The over height horses no I dont believe they should loose their papers. Or even not be allowed to show. Most breeds that have height restrictions have a "Breeding Stock" Class. Which are for horses that fall outside the "IDEAL" height or color. Like a paint or pinto that has a solid foal that foal is still registerable but as a Breeding stock. There are Breeding stock classes for POA's who don't have color or are too tall. They don't loose their papers because of it. They are simply moved into a Breeding Stock Class.

This is sometimes a huge way to get people into showing. As often Breeding stock are sold for less than the people would have to pay for a colored animal of the same quality. Sometimes Ive run into the fact that the BREEDING Stock classes have much better say Conformation or Movement than the colored horses because often times people are "Color" Blind. They see TONS of color pretty markings but dont look at the horse underneath that. The conformation or movement or anything they see simply pretty color. (I sadly know quite a few people like this)
 

Lewella

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AMHA closed hardship to become a recognized breed. I don't think you can hardship into the Shetland book so think as it in similar terms. The closing of the books was done over several years to let any members that had horses they wanted to hardship when the rule changed still have time to do for those horses. Papers that list unknown, unknown are not very useful for making breeding decisions. All breeds close their books at some point. If the books aren't closed its just a record of horses. All my horses are registered with AMHA and AMHR. So if a baby goes over it loses its AMHA papers and continues only on the AMHR-B papers. The AMHA came into existence years ago over the desire of AMHR to expand to B animals. (According to what I have been told by those there at the time).
AMHA existed several years before AMHR opend the B division.

They did later create the Modern Shetland but I believe those are specific papers. I don't believe they opened their original book back up. AMHA isn't closing their books to be against anyone but to grow into a breed from a registry.

As I mentioned earlier the American Shetland Pony Club closed their books at sometime.
Back in the 1920's and reopened them for 20 years from the mid 70's to the mid 90's. Cross breds were given a B after their registration number and once they reached 12.5% or less outcross they became A papered. The A and B were dropped from the papers several 5 or so years ago.
 

CS Classic Acres

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Closing the registry may be the best thing in the world for people with AMHA registered horses. If the registry is closed, than members can SUE to keep papers on any horses out of 2 AMHA parents that go over 34".

Precedents are already in place in TX, as the AQHA has lost several lawsuits causing them to allow horses previously thrown out, as in horses with "excess" white, cremellos, multiple embryo transfers from the same mare, etc. I believe they were fought as "restraint of trade".

So - for everyone who thinks a registered AMHA foal shouldn't lose it's papers for being 1/2" too tall, and that AMHA shouldn't lose the revenue.... now there will be a way to have taller horses retain their papers. Perhaps as breeding stock only, but still.

If that happens, perhaps more foals will be registered with AMHA, - as people won't feel like they are gambling the registration fees on the height of the horse, and that they've thrown it all away (fees, photos, DNA) if one foal is 1/2" taller than its full sibling... and all that jazz.

If the AQHA with its millions of members and lots of cash lost these lawsuits, what shot does AMHA have?
I would have to agree with this comment. The AMHA is like the Pinto association right now, its basis is on "hieght " like Pinto is on "color", not a breed of horse. When the registery closes, it opens the oppertunity to argue for "breeding stock" papers for the the AMHA minis that go oversized.

If the over sized are not allowed that will add additional restrictions to the gene pool that will now been frozen to the current registered AMHA horses.

Or on the other side, this could allow for stricter adherance to more than a generic horse type and the "breed " could then tighten the standard and refuse

papers(or have spay/geld required) to those that have glaring conformation errors, or heriditary defects (like the HYPP in the QH breed), thus removing inferior breeding animals from the gene pool.(probably be hard to inforce from a practical standpoint)

Just some comments to provoke some further thoughts, not intended to upset or offend anyone
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Riverrose28

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This is just my opinion, and I'll probably hear alot about it, but money talks! The old breeders hold the reins. They have been breeding for decades and don't like the new look of the miniature horses, they want to keep breeding what they have been breeding for years. Many years ago some of the old AMHA breeders sold out at breeding dispersal sales their AMHA/AMHR stock and got into AMHR/ASPC then scaled down to hardship into AMHA so now they have AMHA/AMHR/ASPC, some of the other old breeders don't like it! It would be great if the over AMHA horses could be used for breeding, as that is what the judges seem to want in the show ring, the taller the better, and some of the young stock go over, heaven knows I've bought my share!
 

jaymie124

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I have an AMHR mare I planned to hardship next year! I hadn't heard this yet. This makes me a little worried I just see it that my mare fits perfectly with my AMHA mare and there is no reason to not allow my R mare in. Im pretty sure losts of people feel the same. Also in Kansas there are no R shows and you have to be A to show in our state fair something I was really looking forward too doing when I had hardshipped her. I think in Kansas this will be a bad thing not nearly as many people will be able to show around here and I think AMHA will lose money from hard shipping fees and new member fees to register their horses. I just do not think this is a good idea at all. Im all for somehow preventing this change! And I am sure there a plenty of people behind me.
 

Lewella

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Also in Kansas there are no R shows and you have to be A to show in our state fair something I was really looking forward too doing when I had hardshipped her.
The Area VI Shetland Pony & Miniature Horse Breeders' Association, an ASPC/AMHR recognized club, has hosted and AMHR show (ASPC as well) in Lyons, Kansas the past two years and I believe plans are in the works to host a show in Lyons, KS again in 2013.
 

mshasta88

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I know this is just stirring the pot some more, but if the registry was concerned about losing the hardship revenue, would they be considering closing the books? Someone within the origination must have found it financially stable enough to decide to close the registry. Like others have mentioned, it is becoming a defined breed and I’m starting to feel more and more that it is a great idea. Think of the value and benefits it would bring to the breed.

Someone mentioned in another posting that the market is variable because people are interested in breeding and points. These AMHA horses would have the opportunity to earn points while unregistered ones wouldn’t and eventually we could see the market for our precious minis come back.

I do agree though that it will open an argument for people to fight for breeding stock papers on over horses. I think this is something that may come it time but no one will know until that risk is made.

I wonder if the AMHA would also consider an agreement with the AMHR like the APHA has with the AQHA and Jockey Club, where at least one parent must be AMHA to qualify for papers and the other could be AMHR? Any thoughts on this?
 
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sfmini

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I disagree with the statement that the old breeders hold the reins. They are not the ones attending the meetings and voting on things like this.

As for a rule change, the process is very clearly spelled out in the rule book. You must make sure all t's are crossed and i's dotted or it will be rejected. For instance if you have a proposal that will impact the bylaws as well as rules and regs, and maybe show you must submit the correct proposal for each of those sections or your change cannot go through.

One rule in the book though does state that a rule that has been changed has to be in effect for (I believe) a year before it can be changed again.

If and when you submit a rule change and you cannot be at the meetings when it is being reviewed make sure to include a phone number where you can be reached and make sure the committee knows you are open to being contacted to discuss your proposal because your wording might be such that it needs changed for clarity and the committees cannot make those changes if the intent of the rule change isn't clear. In other words they can't second guess you and possibly change the intent of your proposal.
 

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