Measuring... heard talk of a new proposal...

[~Lisa~]

So I have heard there is a propsal in set to be discussed in Nov.. (AMHR) for measuring at the withers instead of the last mane hairs.

My understanding is that it would start in 2011- leaving all previous measurements as they stand with the last mane hairs and moving forward having them done at the withers.

Any thoughts? I know this passed and was reversed in AMHA but I have always thought horses should be measured like any other equine at the withers. Yes some horses would then be to large and I am not sure what that would mean for them or if they would simply measure out?

But why we measure them somewhere no other breed does just so they appear smaller has never made much sense to me or seemed the right thing to do.

Thoughts-opinions?

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I hadn't heard of it, but I would like it.

Especially since I've been known to sneeze while clipping and making my horse grow taller!

 

[lildrummer]

Love your answer Field of Dreams. LOL

lildrummer

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

I think it they want to be considered horses, they should be measured as other breeds. At the wither. Have always felt this. And add an inch or two. It is a realistic way to measure. I hope it is true Lisa!

 

[txminipinto]

I like the proposal but I think that the height limits would have to be raised to adjust for the new measurements. Instead of 34 and under and 38 and under, raise it to 35 and under and 39 and under. BUT, just because we have them measure on the withers doesn't mean we'll solve the measurement problems. We measure shetlands on the withers and there is still 1-2" difference on measurements between stewards at times. The problem will never be solved but by measuring on the withers we'll be in line with every other horse association.

 

[Miniv]

I agree with both Crabby Chicken and Txminipinto.........

Do the withers' height but adjust the legal height accordingly.

 

[Sandee]

I think the biggest problem with measuring at the withers for many people - is finding them. Some of these little guys do not have that promonent bone. I know that my stallion has nearly flat but long withers --at least that's what I'm told by the chiropractors.

Just as some of the stewards have problems finding the "last mane hair" finding those withers will not be any easier.

 

[Belinda]

 

Lisa is right there is a proposal in for this..

I have always been for measuring at the Wither like we do all the other breeds. So I hope we can have a positive chat here about the pro's and con's !! As it is a fact ALL HORSES BIG OR SMALL HAVE WITHERS !

 

I however do NOT agree with raising the heights. That is why I agree with just going forward , let all horses that are already Reg. continue being measured at the last hair of the mane, and go forward in 2011 with measuring at the wither, Show horses usually only are shown 3 or 4 years and then retire to breeding .. With the exception of Performance horses and geldings, and for a few years I guess we would have two different ways of measuring , but really that is the only way I can see this working , as you should always go Forward , NEVER backward , so with that said we can not measure horses already reg. by a different means...

 

I will have to disagree with Cairn on the fact that there is a problem with height being that much different when measured at the withers. My ponies measured at the wither have never been more than a 1/4" off from one steward to the next.. And that my friends could be the surface where they are measuring even up to a 1/2" . But the last hair of the mane I have had some from one show to the next be as different as over a 1" !!!

So I truly believe we have to do something .. JMHO...

 

[wildoak]

Show horses usually only are shown 3 or 4 years and then retire to breeding .. With the exception of Performance horses and geldings,

That's a pretty big exception - and is my only objection to changing to a withers based measurement. We have so many good performance horses now, and have worked to promote geldings & performance to stimulate interest in the breed, that I'd hate to suddenly see many of them disqualified. Driving horses may be shown into their teens, what happens to the taller ones in that instance? I don't think they are any less "miniatures" if we suddenly change the standards.

Jan

 

[Belinda]

That's a pretty big exception - and is my only objection to changing to a withers based measurement. We have so many good performance horses now, and have worked to promote geldings & performance to stimulate interest in the breed, that I'd hate to suddenly see many of them disqualified. Driving horses may be shown into their teens, what happens to the taller ones in that instance? I don't think they are any less "miniatures" if we suddenly change the standards.

Jan

Jan , no one is going to get Disqualified !! That is why it said starting with horses reg.in 2011 , anything reg. before will be still measured at the last hair of the mane for as long as they are shown even if is 20 years. LOL !!

 

[Reble]

I just have one thing to ask?

Will that not make the over ones at the last hair, not as desirable to buy?

My horses are all under 32.00" for breeding.

I will be fine.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I'm all for measuring at the withers and also think the "going forward" thing is fine, but I do believe you would have to raise the height limits for those measured at the withers as otherwise a horse the exact same height as one currently legal would now be "too big." We measured some 30+ minis of all sizes at the Happ's CDE in 2008 and most of them came up at least an inch taller in the withers than their regular breed show measurements. My 33.5" gelding for instance was 35" or thereabouts if I recall correctly. He didn't suddenly get any larger, but he's got prominent withers and he's going to measure taller at the wither than the last mane hair. And so would any horse his size who happened to be born after 2011 and is being measured to the new standard. Do we really want to downsize our breed by whole inches accidentally?

Leia

 

[Songcatcher]

I like the idea, as my goal is to breed the "smallest correctly proportioned horse possible". I realize that is not the goal of many people, and therefore many will not like it. I think it is a step in the right direction to portray our horses accurately. I also realize that there will be many things that will come up and will need to be discussed and there will be both pros and cons.

I hope everyone will be respectful of each others ideas and look at it open minded.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I would be 1000% in favor of changing measurement to the HIGHEST POINT/TOP OF the withers, as it is done w/ virtually ALL the rest of the equine world. The withers are a BONY PROMINENCE(yes, some are more prominent than others, but still, locating their highest point must always be easier and more definate than locating the 'last hair' of the main...run your hand closely and firmly over the withers, note that whether they have a prominent wither or a 'mutton' wither, they definitely HAVE a wither that can be easily felt, because there is really only a skin covering over the TOP of that portion of the vertebral column.

I have no problem with raising the height standard(to ultimately ensure that future horses are not IN ACTUALITY, taller horses---if this ISN'T done, then at some time in future, the 'officially registered' miniature horse WILL be a slightly taller animal. This doesn't really bother me; I have come to believe it simply shouldn't be an issue--it is just not that significant a difference, IMO.The height limits were subjectively chosen to begin with. I do STRONGLY believe that 'grandfathering in' ALL measured under the now-existing specifications for as long as every such horse shall live...as described by Belinda...would be the only fair way. What would NOT be fair would be to change the measurement site so as to immediately DISQUALIFY many currently-legal-height horses---and I don't believe there would be ANY support for doing it that way!

Of COURSE,for this to actually make things better all around, the PRIMARY requirement would be close adherence to the rules and requirements of honest and proper measurement.

(And,for those who may not be familiar with what happened... I have to add that the AMHA did NOT 'do this', then reject it! What was done was a cockamamy(MY description, and I'm stickin' to it!)notion to measure at the 'bottom' of the withers...a completely UNDEFINABLE, arbitrary 'location' on the horse. IMHO, when the many potential problems were made clear, actual logic prevailed, and the action was rescinded.Measurement at the TOP/HIGHEST point of the withers was not part of what occurred.)

Margo

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'm not at all oposed by measuring at the withers. My question would be is 2011 a little too soon to start a change like this, I think 2012 would give people a better heads up, especially mares are bred right what if they foaled out kids too tall for this new measuring system. Alot of those horses will be the shetlands, yes I'm actually speaking up for the mini shetlands lol. Another thing I agree with some is I don't think we should raise the height limits.

This will defintelly be a interesting proposal, and hopefully will be going to Convention this year.

The thing that AMHA was trying to do and was passed was measure at the BASE behind the withers, to find this magical notch. It didn't go over so well.

 

[Minimor]

I have no problem with the measurement point being moved to the top of the wither. IMO that's where it should have been right from the start.

I do see problems with the height limit being left at 38" when the measuring is done at the top of the withers. Why? Because right now there are horses that measure 38" at the last mane hair. Measure those horses at the top of the wither and a good many of them (particularly the Shetlands) are going to measure 39" or taller. Some of the non-ASPC Minis may have lower withers and the height difference isn't that much. So, further down the road, it's very possible that we're going to see driving classes that have entries that are measured in to the top of the withers as well as entries that are measured in at the last mane hair. Those that are 38" at the last mane hair are likely taller....and will look taller...than those that measure 38" at the top of the wither. Those that are showing the 38" at the top of the wither ones will be complaining big time about how unfair it is that they have to compete against horses that are "too tall" because of the different measuring method. And some people that are watching the classes will be making complaints about how much taller some horses are...because many of those won't know about the two different ways of measuring.

Some will be happy for sure, because this rule change will keep a larger number of ASPC ponies out of the AMHR registry, just because so many ponies do have higher withers with mane that ends well down the wither--many that would measure in now will be too tall once they have to make 38" or less at the top of the wither.

It matters not to me--for many reasons I have moved from showing Minis to showing ponies--so I care little about what they do when it comes to measuring Minis.

 

[Yaddax3]

If the goal to to keep 34 inches as the benchmark for Unders and to keep 38 inches for Overs, Belinda may have hit on the best solution. You would have to grandfather in all minis measured under the current format.

There are a few problems, I believe.

One problem: The minis measured at the withers starting in 2011 could be at a competitive disadvantage in a driving class against a mini that measures 38 inches at the last hair of the mane but would be 40-plus inches at the withers. That competitive disadvantage also could come into play in Halter and other classes.

Another problem: Breeding programs could be destroyed. Several well-known breeders produce high-quality ASPC-AMHR double registered ponies/minis that breed to be in that 37-38 inch range. They built their programs based on the current rules. What happens to them?

Perhaps raising the height limits for Under and Over horses should be a strong option.

 

[ruffian]

I would suggest a survey of horses at Nationals to get an average of how much difference there is between the withers and last hair. A strictly voluntary measurement, where the horse's NAME would NOT be recorded, simply 2 measurements that are taken AFTER the official measurement has been completed. That way we would have a strong mathematical basis for deciding to not change the current sizes, or by how much to change them. To simply "guestimate" what to change them to is not scientific, and horses are going to have different wither definiation.

I will have some horses at Nationals, and would absolutely have them included in such a study. I think this measuring at the withers is a method who's time has come. I've measured hundreds of horses, and finding the withers is certainly easier than the last hair!

I would fully support such a program, if it is done with scientific background, and not someone's best guess.

 

[Sandee]

I have no problem with the measurement point being moved to the top of the wither. IMO that's where it should have been right from the start.

I do see problems with the height limit being left at 38" when the measuring is done at the top of the withers. Why? Because right now there are horses that measure 38" at the last mane hair. Measure those horses at the top of the wither and a good many of them (particularly the Shetlands) are going to measure 39" or taller. Some of the non-ASPC Minis may have lower withers and the height difference isn't that much. So, further down the road, it's very possible that we're going to see driving classes that have entries that are measured in to the top of the withers as well as entries that are measured in at the last mane hair. Those that are 38" at the last mane hair are likely taller....and will look taller...than those that measure 38" at the top of the wither. Those that are showing the 38" at the top of the wither ones will be complaining big time about how unfair it is that they have to compete against horses that are "too tall" because of the different measuring method. And some people that are watching the classes will be making complaints about how much taller some horses are...because many of those won't know about the two different ways of measuring.

Some will be happy for sure, because this rule change will keep a larger number of ASPC ponies out of the AMHR registry, just because so many ponies do have higher withers with mane that ends well down the wither--many that would measure in now will be too tall once they have to make 38" or less at the top of the wither.

It matters not to me--for many reasons I have moved from showing Minis to showing ponies--so I care little about what they do when it comes to measuring Minis.

YEP!!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think Ruffian's suggestion is a very good idea. What a great experiment.