Just got The Journal in the mail

[Margo_C-T]

Cavallini Farms is right, Sandy...you do not stand alone in your opinions.

May I ask...what, about letting a horse's hoof grow to lengths that resemble a piece of stovepipe, elevating the frog to so far above the ground surface that there is no way it can (properly) contact that same ground surface to act as a 'pump' for good blood circulation, as it is evolved to do, is considered a 'good idea', and demonstrably not harmful to, the horse? I'd truly like to hear, from those who have this done to their horses or ponies.

Years ago, my then(and well-regarded locally)shoer told me of being asked by an area Morgan owner/exhibitor...to all appearances a fine, upstanding younger couple(the wife's dad was a big McDonalds franchise owner in this area, and the family had 'been into' Morgans for years)...to weld some 'blobs' of metal onto the HOOF side of shoes, so that the horse would feel PAIN on the sole/white line area at EVERY step...this to 'enhance'its action. He refused to do this. One would NEVER suspect this upstanding member of the community(it was the wife)of countenancing such an inhumane act, and yet...that is EXACTLY what she was doing. This, and multiple other instances of finding out about the e--l things horses have been subjected to, by people who give EVERY appearance of being lovely folks, has made me more than a little skeptical about choruses of denial in whatever aspect of the horse industry is under discussion...Just sayin'.

Certainly, there ARE those who don't participate in these kinds of, shall I tip-toe and call'less-than-kind', activities(and in response to an earlier poster's question...a case in point...I am one, and know (sadly, only a few)others, who would NEVER, EVER, trim a horse's feet to bloodiness/no heel, in order to attempt to 'measure in'. at ANY time, ANY where....period!!!!!, because YES, I do consider THAT a cruel practice.)

When did our society's level of 'political correctness'(or as I often consider it, squeamishness about/reluctance to suggesting that ANYONE should be held responsible for ANYTHING)begin to dictate that one 'is not allowed' to express one's sense of distress, and yes, perhaps, outrage, over what one's own eyes and conscience tell one is unkind at best; and inhumane, even cruel, at worst??

Off the soapbox for now,

Margo

 

[tagalong]

Thank you Cavallini Farm. I appreciate the support and know MANY others back me but are afraid to speak up or they may get bloated too.

Bloated? Gas colic? Mmmkay.

It is not WHAT you necessarily said (I already said I do not care for the Moderns that much) but the way you have gone about it that got some people annoyed - and they responded in kind. I may not agree with that but I can also see why they responded that way. And when you said you did not even know it was a Shetland (look under the pic - and yes, we are looking at the same one - it says MODERN division) and did not bother to notice or investigate further beforehand, well - that is not how you go about it. Look at some of the Congress pics - and you can plainly see they are not minis. Far too big. Ditto for the one on the cover. Snapping at anyone who does not agree 100% with how you went about it also does not help.

So only your opinion is valid and anyone with a different opinion or even just expressing a concern as I did is just "grasping at straws" or pulling "facts" and "statements" out of thin air, as you suggested so dismissively - and not just sharing their thoughts.

Alrighty then. Carry on...

 

[Cavallini Farms]

Why is this becoming a flame-fest? Sandy is concerned and upset about a legitimate problem. She (and I, and a lot of others) has every right be upset about this practice of overgrowing hooves without it becoming a fight.

I think if you want to flame her for being against it, find something factual in support of ridiculously long hooves, sore legs and backs as a result, and flame away. Ah but that won't ever happen, so lets go flame Sandy for calling attention to it. Well, people, its not a secret that their hooves are too long. Its right there in the ring, right there in the magazine. And yes its wrong in every aspect. Its painful, its cruel, and its all to make a fancy stepping pony. Ridiculous reason to torture a beautiful pony. YOU try walking and running with your own feet twice as long as nature intended. Ouch.

Every breed has problems in the show ring, this particular thread is about Shetlands. I see someone wants to flame reiners, and is it a coincidence that Sandy reins?

I say again, either a horse has it, or they don't. Faking it doesn't make anyone a believer.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Ok, got my flame suit on.

I generally don't look at/read the Journal anymore, but had to have a look after seeing this thread. After doing so, I must say I totally agree with the original poster. I saw 3 horses in particular that I found so sad. And yes, to me, the length of hoof + shoe did look darn close to half the length of the canon bone. I can NOT imagine that the frog can perform its job on a hoof like those. I just don't believe it's possible. However, I also noticed none of the horses was shown by big-time trainers. Maybe that says something too.

So Sandy, I concur. Flame away folks; I can take it.

 

[Shaladar]

Well, I agree with you too, Sandy.

Sue Cushing

 

[disneyhorse]

I think the overall tone of the original post, as well as some blanket misconceptions, is what got "the pony people" all riled up.

It's hard not to get defensive when someone sees a picture of something and then starts making disparaging comments about all sorts of things. This applies whether someone sees a parent disciplining a child (perhaps they don't normally see the parent and child interaction the majority of the time) or meets a person outside of their normal culture for a brief period of time (they haven't met several people, just come across one and make a blanket decision about the culture from that encounter).

This, of course, happens all the time in many horse disciplines. Is JUMPING cruel to horses? After all, most horses naturally don't jump multiple objects with the extra weight of a rider on its back. Is REINING cruel to horses? After all, most horses naturally don't spend large amounts of time sliding on their hocks and spinning around extreme. Those who don't do those disciplines may see a video or photos of horses and jump to the conclusion that those disciplines are pretty cruel and will shorten the lifespan of the horse. After all, what is easier on a horse... dressage or reining? Trail riding or racing? Carriage driving or jumping? Obviously there are careers which will allow a horse to "hold up" easier, especially if it has weak conformation.

Personally, like you saw with the two year old colt I posted the photo of... I am NOT into the EXTREME forms of action enhancement. But everything has it's range. At what severity of bit becomes "too abusive"? Anything with a curb chain? Anything past the rough cheek? At what point does applying a whip become abusive? If you touch the horse at all? If it makes a welt?

I think the "ignorance" aspect comes in to play when someone sees something and knows nothing about it, yet makes sweeping generalizations about it. To say that "they look broke to stand the tail straight up as well as gingered" is a sweeping, disparaging statement. When, in fact, most of those tails are 100% fake. It's easy to LOOK at the fake wig buckled onto the crupper and assume that the tail bone itself is broken, and ginger is stuffed in there to make it stick up. Way back when... that's sort of what was done. But as time marches on, people become less tolerant of abuse and more interested in making their valuable horses comfortable and happy. A happy horse is sure going to perform and focus a lot better than one that is not!

Rather than complain, do something constructive. Look into the process for rule changes for the ASPC/AMHR. Look into how and why things are done the way they are done.

What is "excessive" weight of shoe? 6 ounces? 12 ounces? Does the size of the pony come into play with that? What is "excessive" length of foot? A one-inch heel? A three-inch heel? What if the heel is very short but the toe is grown out long? If you want to see "better rules" from the Registry, we need to know what the limits should be. But we can't arbitrarily decide on that. If you start to get familiar with the rules and history of the ASPC, you can see that even recently there has been a lot of talk about the Modern Pleasure shoeing rules which recently changed. It takes a LOT of research before you can magically change something as vague as "abuse"... We can't, as a Registry, just say "well we know it when we see it."

Good luck to you. All of us with horses, have them because we love them. No one gets into the hobby of having horses because they specifically want to harm and abuse them.

Andrea

 

[valshingle]

Perhaps this topic would be more appropriate in the Pony Forum or Back Porch, as it seems to be directed towards Moderns, ASPCs etc.

That was my impression from the OP's first post. Since this is a miniature forum and under both AMHA and AMHR rules, miniatures can not be shown with shoes on, it is quite obvious to me that this topic belongs elsewhere. I do wish that the OP had realized this before posting in this forum.

The above is just my opinion.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, pain and discomfort is something that Vets are trained to measure.

I do believe that I have seen shoes and angles lead to pain. The situation has different causes, but the same result, lack of support. I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider.

The key is always support.

Dr Taylor

 

[disneyhorse]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, pain and discomfort is something that Vets are trained to measure.

I do believe that I have seen shoes and angles lead to pain. The situation has different causes, but the same result, lack of support. I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider.

The key is always support.

Dr Taylor

This is something to note, I suppose, thank you for the thoughtful answer.

I have seen minis with bad farriers trimming poorly and causing a whole lot more pain to the horse than an educated farrier shoeing a weighted pony foot.

Andrea

 

[Cavallini Farms]

Support, yes, but they also need proper break over and the frog isn't able to do its job at that length.

 

[Sandy B]

I agree Dr. Taylor. Many of horses have been crippled due to improper farrier work. Balance and proper angles are of most importance.

However, your statement- I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider." can be interpreted several ways. Are you saying that a pony or horse that have been manipulated to grow their hoof to a long un-natural length and then shod with heavy shoes and pads suffer no consequences in the short term or long term as long as they are supported? When you say "supported" what are you referring to?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, pain and discomfort is something that Vets are trained to measure.

I do believe that I have seen shoes and angles lead to pain. The situation has different causes, but the same result, lack of support. I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider.

The key is always support.

Dr Taylor

 

[Sandy B]

I have to say, I went through all the posts and it is amazing how people can read a posts and put the tone to it that they want to hear. I am told that I was sneering and insulting and that I can't take others opinions. From the very beginning, I voiced my concern and my opinion about what I saw in The Journal on a few photos. I did not read the detailed info as I could not get past the photos. These photos were in The Journal, which to my knowledge is the publication of AMHR. I think AMHR, I think "over" miniatures, not Shetland ponies specifically. So I voiced my opinion and at first there were a few pleasant exchanges until the first post on page 2. Then it became an attack on my opinion and my words were twisted. I admit, I got defensive on the personal attack against me, but I still did not make it a personal attack against others. I defended myself backing it up with the knowledge that I have. Yet, know one would acknowledge what I knew about the subject, it was what I didn't know or supposedly didn't know. Then the reining horse industry got thrown in the fire just because I have been successful with reining horses. Now you tell me, is this a personal attack against me or what, just because I am extremely saddened by the photos I saw in The Journal? It goes to show that people do not like being called out on something that just may be not in the best interest of a horse (or pony or mini).

I stand by my original post. Enhancing a horse's (or pony or mini) natural God given ability within moderation or humane practices is one thing, but growing the hoof out to twice its normal length and then shoeing with a weighted shoe and pad to support that hoof and enhance action is not moderation, it is extreme.

I am glad others are showing their support and opinions as well. I have no interest in changing rules or such in the Shetland Pony association. I have no interest or time as I am already heavily in several other organizations. I give huge kudos to those Shetland Pony exhibitors, owners and breeders who show a more "natural" pony that has been bred to have movement and charisma and then exhibited in the appropriate divisions rather than artificially enhanced, over-shod pony.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I agree Dr. Taylor. Many of horses have been crippled due to improper farrier work. Balance and proper angles are of most importance.

However, your statement- I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider." can be interpreted several ways. Are you saying that a pony or horse that have been manipulated to grow their hoof to a long un-natural length and then shod with heavy shoes and pads suffer no consequences in the short term or long term as long as they are supported? When you say "supported" what are you referring to?

I was neither taught in school nor have I seen in any text a reference about a particular weight of shoe leading to short or long term problems. In fact, one of the heaviest shoes ever put on a horse is a medicine plate used to treat the underside of the hoof. Medicine plates are usually attached to just one foot and would be a prime area to see if 'excessive' weight damaged the patient. I have neither seen this myself nor have I seen any reports of this occurring.

Support refers to creating a stable area for the horse to contact the ground. As each horse has different conformational qualities then it should be understood that this is not necessarily the exact same qualities for every horse. But in general, support needs to include front to back and side to side, and as anyone who has stacked hay knows, the base needs to be at least as wide as the top and greater stability occurs when the base is slightly larger than the top.

Dr Taylor

 

[kaykay]

These photos were in The Journal, which to my knowledge is the publication of AMHR. I think AMHR, I think "over" miniatures, not Shetland ponies specifically.

This is confusing to a lot of people. The clubs name is officially "American Shetland Pony Club" or ASPC. The American Miniature Horse Registry (AMHR) is a division of ASPC.

This particular issues is known as the "Congress" issue which shows the results of the American Shetland Congress. The next issue will be the "Nationals" issue that will showcase the results of AMHR Nationals.

I am probably in the middle somewhere in this debate. I showed a Modern Pleasure pony for years but would never shoe her, band her etc. Because this is what I prefer and how I do it. Most of you know I am not for extreme anything and more of a natural woman. I love the way our MP pony moves so I could never see why I should shoe her up, band her etc.

The flip side of that is I do not take people to task that do shoe up their horses as long as its done responsibly. I have been to many farms that own Moderns and Modern Pleasures and they look quite happy and healthy running around the pasture.

I do think that all sides in this issue could post a little more like adults and not sling mud at each other.

This is a great opportunity to learn about why things are done, but if everyone is busy attacking each other the message is lost.

Like all divisions you will have people that push it too far. That goes whether its miniatures, moderns, classics or foundations. Someone will always push the envelope

 

[BeeBopMini]

Beware of doing these awful things to the breed just to win a show ... Remember what happened in the Tennessee Walker breed and how the humane society shut down many of their shows. If it looks unnatural, in many cases it is crewelty to the horse!

 

[txminipinto]

I highly recommend anyone who is really interested in the shetlands, and particularly the moderns, to visit an ASPC show and WATCH. In my years of showing ASPC, I have never seen a painful pony. Dr. Taylor is the SON of THE Dr. Taylor of the famed Michigan ponies. They are definately something to behold in and out of the ring. ahrobertspony is Amy Roberts Clark of THE Roberts Family Ponies. Another high quality farm with the winningest mare in Congress history (and she's no spring chicken either!). Both of these individuals have been around these animals LONGER than ANYONE on this forum. If anyone is expert on the tradition of shoeing a modern pony, its these two individuals.

 

[ahrobertspony]

Thank you, Dr. Matt, for your helpful and informative posts. Thank you, Carin, for the compliment. Thank you, Kay, for pointing out the actual chain of command. The rules pertaining to Modern Shetlands in the rulebook of the American Shetland Pony Club are the OLDEST continual mandates. THIS section of the association's rulebook is the one that goes back to the origins of the registry.

My original post was targeted toward the individual who posted about the TREND. What you see is NO trend. See the history I shared. In fact, the TREND is actually just exactly the opposite. There are many, many fewer overshod ponies today than in years past because the animals have simply been bred to be more talented. Although, I am not sure that anything that happens over the course of the 40 years we've been involved can be termed a TREND.

My post also answered the poster who commented about the tails. Again, the TREND is away from nicking, tailsets, etc.

Finally, someone posted about the long-term viability of these ponies. Pull show results and compare divisions from Miniature to Modern. You will find MODERNS are the division with the largest percentage of older animals competing, especially among the performance animals. Obviously this fact flies in the face of the assumption that someone posted that

My family has done this nearly 45 years. I can't even begin to imagine how many total ponies have passed through our hands, barn and pasture. Do you know how many of those have been cripple or had long-term feet problems? EXACTLY ZERO.

We are proud to own the winning-est mare in the history of the Congress. She took her 5th Congress grand championship just this summer and her 6th national liberty title. She is 17. We've been shoeing and professionally managing this mare's feet for 17 years. If you need any proof of that ... check out the LIBERTY titles. She's never lost a shoe doing that ... so her feet can't be too negatively impacted. Of course, she doesn't carry the kind of foot referenced in the pics as she doesnt' really need it. I hope she's around many years and believe there is certainly every possibility of that because we just lost her mother at the age of 30 .... she lived healthy and happy until about 24 hours before she passed away. The pony in the best shape in the pasture? A 22 year mare who had a long, long, long career as a very, very, very successful World and Congress grand champion mare & roadster pony. She probably has the healthiest feet on the property!

MY contention is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what some folks propose here: I think most of these ponies actually have better feet, better feet & leg management and better medical attention to leg and feet health than any other division. As anyone follows any performance type horse breed ... from show to racing ... you will know that leg health can dictate long-term viability. Otherwise, you don't have a pony MORE capable & fit to win at 16 (as a wet broodmare with a foal on her side) and at 17 than she was at 3 ... when she was still immature and not fully developed.

When you see Miniatures that trot, sometimes they have been subjected to banding ... and I mean overbanding. Improper & uneducated use of that tool is way more likely to cause long-term problems than overshoeing.

EVERYTHING hinges on education and proper care. While there will also be ignorant people who do the wrong thing on any given topic, you can't judge an entire group based on that. Just like you can't make assumptions about a division by a few photos in a book. Again, I looked back through the pics. I see only TWO that have the old-style up tails. I see only a small, small, small percentage of shoeing that gives me pause. Even in those cases ... as someone who has been managing feet for long-term viability ... my more likely comment would be the length of the hooves.

As another point of eduction, the legal matters related to Tennessee Walking Horses relates to soring. That has nothing to do do with shoeing, shoes, pads, etc.

Of course, it is possible that I don't know much about this as someone looking only at photos.

 

[Mona]

Beware of doing these awful things to the breed just to win a show ... Remember what happened in the Tennessee Walker breed and how the humane society shut down many of their shows. If it looks unnatural, in many cases it is crewelty to the horse!

The TWHs are still shown on heavy pads. I believe it was the "soring" that was "outlawed" (and rightfully so!) because it was inhumane, burning the horse.

 

[Karen S]

Sandy why don't you post what pages these ponies are on so that everyone can see what you are referring to.

 

[minih]

We do attend Congress and since we show classics and foundation have our off time during the modern pleasure, moderns and the show ponies we get to watch these beautiful horses in action. I envy the people that have them and know all the ins and outs of putting shoes on them and working them on the rail. None of them I have talked with make their decisions lightly, there are a lot of different factors on how they are treating their horses feet. I try to ask a lot of questions, who knows one day I may own one of these beauties.

And from a prior post on this thread it was mentioned that it was because a trainer was not at the lead of the horse and that could be why. I'm sorry but you have a lot of your older farms that are amateur and have been showing horses for a very long time, I do think they know quite a bit about what they are doing. I also do not think that trainers are infallible, no one is, we are all human.