How much is this mare worth

[nootka]

Thank you for understanding my intentions. Nobody learns when they are mad, and from some points of view, it seems to get a little frustrating to see people making the same mistakes over and over again.

I would LOVE to see everyone have horses nicer than mine, winning National and World titles as they learn and make better breeding choices.

I would LOVE to see dwarfs eradicated from our breed (they give our breed a real black eye w/many other breeds, as well as the suffering of the dwarfs themselves), and every pet being as beautiful as the current year's World Supreme Champion, but that is not a reality if people set the bar only so high, and say "it's ok because it's only going to be a pet".

Noone should be breeding FOR pets, not any of us. Occasionally, our best-laid plans go awry, and our finest made horses will have a "fluke" as in the baby is horrid, and we need to consider culling them (giving them a pet only home, where they will not be bred).

Breeding is taking the best results from the best pairing, and going from there, not taking the poor ones and breeding them because they got the color, the bloodlines, the small size, etc. etc.

Sound conformation is the beginning basis, and proportion after that. Miniatures always have a proportion issue, but get as far away from glaringly off proportion. In your mare's case, it is her leg length to her body length ratio that is the most concerning, when coupled with her bone size/height. It tells me that she MAY have been destined to be a taller mare, and the foal she has could end up being too large for her. It may well have large bones and I would be very vigilant around her due dates.

I wish you the best, and applaud your efforts to learn. Would that we could all be so open-minded!!!

Liz M.

Wasnt being rude, just wasnt going to say what I was thinking but you wouldnt beleive it so just waited for somebody else to say it. Glad she did. I also think she is one of the few that will speak up and tell the truth when people ask on horses, not the most popular thing to do but its what needs to be done.
It doesnt pay to be honest, when it falls on deaf ears most of the time

I try to be diplomatic about it, because I try to remember how some people helped me see my own poor judgment and help educate me through my inexperience, also how I would want to hear it if someone could have cut me off at the pass so to speak, before I made the choices I did that I feel went badly.

Luckily for me, my "hobby" of having a few nice foals per year and selling maybe one or two, does not preclude me being able to perhaps alienate a few that are closed-minded. This is a small industry and one does have to be diplomatic to a degree.

Not all will agree, there are opinions but I stand by my statement that good conformation is not subjective, it is a hard and fast guide for all of us to understand and use for making breeding choices as well as who will be show horses and who will not, why they might be suited for performance careers, or why not.

The color thing, the height and bloodlines, all of these mean nothing to me if the conformation and proportion are not at least close to what they should be for a full sized horse. A miniature is, after all, a "horse in miniature". Or supposed to be.

Thank you again for keeping an open mind. I am not an expert, nor am I a judge, etc., only a hobby breeder of Miniatures though I like showing as well, and training my minis. I've had them now for 12 years and if you could see my "herd" of 12 years ago, you would understand that my experience has come from true experience, not based on observation of someone else. I wish you only the best.

Liz M.

 

[heart k ranch]

Thank you for understanding my intentions. Nobody learns when they are mad, and from some points of view, it seems to get a little frustrating to see people making the same mistakes over and over again.

I would LOVE to see everyone have horses nicer than mine, winning National and World titles as they learn and make better breeding choices.

I would LOVE to see dwarfs eradicated from our breed (they give our breed a real black eye w/many other breeds, as well as the suffering of the dwarfs themselves), and every pet being as beautiful as the current year's World Supreme Champion, but that is not a reality if people set the bar only so high, and say "it's ok because it's only going to be a pet".

Noone should be breeding FOR pets, not any of us. Occasionally, our best-laid plans go awry, and our finest made horses will have a "fluke" as in the baby is horrid, and we need to consider culling them (giving them a pet only home, where they will not be bred).

Breeding is taking the best results from the best pairing, and going from there, not taking the poor ones and breeding them because they got the color, the bloodlines, the small size, etc. etc.

Sound conformation is the beginning basis, and proportion after that. Miniatures always have a proportion issue, but get as far away from glaringly off proportion. In your mare's case, it is her leg length to her body length ratio that is the most concerning, when coupled with her bone size/height. It tells me that she MAY have been destined to be a taller mare, and the foal she has could end up being too large for her. It may well have large bones and I would be very vigilant around her due dates.

I wish you the best, and applaud your efforts to learn. Would that we could all be so open-minded!!!

Liz M.

I think your right, and i'm happy someone has said something. I have seen pictures of the last foal and had a good show record ( very very good looking). i'm talking to the old owner though email. she said the foal turned out to be around 34 inches, and did good at nationals ( top ten in nationals in halter). She never did say his name but she (the mare) went though a bunch of traders before getting to me.

So I guess I'm thinking if I crossed with the right stud maybe the foal might be as good

 

[SunQuest]

Your mare looks like a really loving sweet gal.

Nootka is right about her conformation. The traits that she has, specifically the heavy bone structure and week rear end are VERY hard to get out of this breed. Miniatures with really strong rear ends are not common, and to find one that is the oposite of your mare would be challenging to say the least. There are breeders that have dedicated their lives to trying to improve on the rear end issue, and today's foals are evidence of that lifetime of trying to change it.

As you stated, if crossed to the right stallion, the foal "may" be as good. But, you also have the same chance or more of the foal not being as good. Now with that in mind, I have to remember what the ultimate goal of breeding should be.

One has to remember that the ultimate goal when breeding horses is to have the foal be much nicer than both sire and dam. This requires genetic consistancy from generation to generation as traits can skip generations (both bad and good). And the only way to get a top quality foal is to start with the best and pray for the best to happen.

When breeding any two animals together, it is the luck of the draw. So to increase the chances of having a nice foal, one must start with nice parents. If you breed this mare to the best stallion on the planet, the foal will always have at least a 50 percent chance of inheriting any given conformational flaw from the dam. And with the number of flaws that Nootka listed, I would say that you would have a much higher chance of having a foal that would be not as nice as the sire, so this mating would not be necessarily a good cross.

So, knowing this, I would not breed this mare. I am sure though that this mare would have other callings in life that would make her a treasure to have. She could be a great nanny to other foals at weaning time or she may be the perfect child's horse. She may be a horse that you could trust in a community service enviroment (like nursing home visitations). She may be a super wonderful horse for costume classes or inhand trail classes.

Enjoy her, and try to find the perfect niche for her and she will be worth more than the low end pet prices.

 

[Rachel]

First off, I want to applaud you for trying to expand your horizons in the breeding business. As a younger person here, I am doing much the same myself. While this mare is undeniably a cute mare, I would be concerned breeding her. The first thing that jumps out at me is her shortness of leg. However you did mention that she has produced at least one very nice foal in the past and this certainly could happen again. As my mini mentor always says (and some people will definitely disagree) breeding is a crap shoot most times. You can have a mare that gives you mediocre babies for years and then POOF! nicest foal of the year. I have witnessed this happen more than once with my mentor. I do wish you the best of luck with her upcoming foal and please do let us know when he/she arrives!

:

 

[Katiean]

I saw the new picture. I think she is fat. I know you said she is pregnant but, she is fat. If she were in better condition she would look a lot better. You have to remember that the halter horses are not just pulled out of the pasture and shown. They are worked. Most halter horses have not been pregnant. She is a broodmare quality mare. If she is sound she may be a good cart horse. Training to drive would increase her value. Any training on a horse helps it's price.

 

[lyn_j]

I have been really trying to sit on my hands about this one but.... here goes and i know there will be flames after. The ONLY reason Im saying this is because this mare was touted to be a show quality and quality producing mare.

The new pics confirmed what the first pic made me think. Dont shoot me but I believe this mare is a minimal dwarf and this is why,

Her length of leg compared to length of body, her low shprt neck and large for her body sized head.

This mare is not in my opinion, and I say this with the backround that I have bred and shown NAtional Top ten horses for several years..... this mare would be hard pressed to pin in any class with more than 6 entries.

She is cute yes, lots of horses asre cute but it doesnst make them show and broodmare quality. There are old time breeders that dont show anymore that remember the horses of 10-20 years ago and they would have shown a mare like this because there wasnt anything better. Times have changed. Not just type has changed but the practice of using dwarves, publicly advertising them at stud, IE Bond Tiny Tim, Bond Bulldog, several other bond horse, I have the old magazines with them on the covers 17" and proud of it! No neck crooked legs who knows what kind of bites...... in those days lots of dwarves were used as stallions to reduce size. Smaller is NOT always better!

You asked what this mare was worth. I say 500 or so as a PET only. IF you want a show horse she isnt it....... if you want a broodmare that shows dwarf traits and run the risk of producing a dwarf I believe thats what you have. Im not trying to be mean, hyper critical or anything like that. I am offering my experienced opinion which I believe is what you asked for.

Hope this came across in the spirit it was intended, not to offend but to teach.

Lyn

 

[heart k ranch]

I'm not going to show her too old, ( the trainer said so), yes she is preggo and a little fat.

I don't think she is dwarfy but that doesn't mean she won't throw it, just like no one knows if there minis are going to have dwarfs.

She is overweight and fat, but doesn't mean she isn't broodmare quality and I'm going to breed her.

Sorry but this mare has had a sound very good foal, (doesn't mean she'll throw another one) but I will breed her. She is one of my favorites and I think if she has a pretty foal it will go a long way too.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I think posts like this can only end up with hurt feelings.

It is your mare your decision but for me.. broodmare quality - show quality shouldnt be such a huge leap. Granted not all horses want to be or should be halter horses but the quality should still be there even if the capicity to handle the show ring isnt it.

Of course give a bit for mares that have had a few foals we all understand the ummm slight sagging that happens to most of us with each progessive child but again that doesnt change conformation neither does being to fat

 

[lyn_j]

Alrighty then.... wishing you the very best of luck with her and her foal.

Lyn

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree with Liz wholeheartedly and, reluctantly, with Lyn as well.

I say reluctantly as most of what Liz said and all of what Lyn said was what I would have said a lot less diplomatically had you asked for a critique.

Basically, you asked how much we thought the mare was worth and we have told you, and we have given you the reasons behind our valuation.

You DID ask, after all.

If your mare had been really nice we would have said so- I have seen a few really nice animals shown, and I have heard complimentary comments on them, too.

If you had wanted people to just compliment your cute mare, that is what you should have asked for- people are very willing to do it, believe me.

I would not be breeding this mare for a number of reasons and I would not buy her as a broodmare, either.

The fact that she has had one live foal does not mean she will have another and, I am afraid, had it been that good she would not have been left empty.

Two more things, and I hope you will take them in the manner in which they are intended- had I been told a mare needed certain supplements to sustain a pregnancy you can be darned sure I would be giving them to her, not risking losing the mare and foal by withholding them- people do not say these things for no reason, you know.

The second is another you will not want to hear- I really do not consider the appy stallion to be anything near refined- I think surfing a few more sites, getting a real "eye" for these things and then maybe starting again would not be a bad idea.

This mare pleases YOUR eye- there is nothing wrong with that and the last thing we want to do is put you off, but if you are intending to breed neither she nor the appy colt are a good place to start.

Please do not be put off or offended- we genuinely are trying to help you.

Some are a little less "to the point" than others, that is all.

If you would like to know the name and show record of this mares foal you can PM me her name (which I shall keep confidential as you have not published it) and I can look her up for you.

 

[Jill]

I think your mare is adorable and there are a lot of people who would love to have her, but conformationally, she is not show or breeding quality. She'd still make a great pet and maybe be fun to do some in hand performance. I've seen lots worse that people use as breeding animals, but she really isn't one who is made to be bred and shown.

 

[MBhorses]

heart k ranch

she is a cute mare. i too am learning the breeding and showing stuff as well. I posted on here last year about two minis i had. I ask everyone if they look like dwarf. I was amazed of how many folks said they look dwarf. We decide to let them go to someone else. We are learning right along with you. So please don't take everyone comments neg. I know alot of them are good helpful comments. I don't think anyone is trying to hurt your feeling. When I read post like these I try to learn more from them. I am sure I still have some minis that are not up to breeding and showing, but we are trying to better our herd.I wish you the best of luck with your mare and her foal.Everyone please remember she is trying to learn as well. Keep us posted.

 

[nootka]

You have to remember that the halter horses are not just pulled out of the pasture and shown. They are worked.

I know this is not 100% relevant here, as the mare is older, but no matter how much you work her, or how much weight you take off of her, the skeletal structure is the same.

You cannot sweat off nor condition away bad conformation because it is skeletal, and that is why those conformation diagrams show the skeleton within the horse, to give you an idea of why the conformation is off when it is.

My halter horses are pulled right out of the pasture. I do work with my performance gelding to keep him fit for jumping and driving, but the others just come in to get clipped and bathed, then right back out with the herd until it's time to leave for the show.

Here is a little example of my "pulled straight out of the pasture" halter horses:

3-year old gelding. He is heavy boned and that will never change, not with any amount of work, but this is an example of a horse that lives in the pasture and is only stalled at night. The main thing is that he gets good feed all the time and free exercise in a large pasture.

5-month weanling gelding. I NEVER work weanlings and this is how he looks straight out of the pasture, clipped and groomed.

Pulled straight out of the pasture and shown. She was Supreme Champion mare, Under, at a fairly good sized AMHR show. She is a long yearling, here, which is very hard to keep in good shape w/out good feed and some work them, but I don't. NO sweating, no working, nothing but good conformation (NOT perfect, but good and sound) and good health and free exercise.

For reference, this is a five-year-old mare who is five months in foal, here, and had a five month old filly on her side. Unclipped, she is 31.50" tall, and a bit fat. She was pulled right out of the pasture and while not quite halter fit (look at that belly!) you can see that her angles are still nice, she's not perfect (would love more leg and neck length) but she's approaching it, and her conformation is decently sound. Most of all, her proportions are good. She WAS a halter horse in her younger days, and did fairly well even with my bumbling. The filly above is her first foal.

I just think it's a good idea to dispel a myth that it takes a lot of hard work and then any horse could be a halter horse. Maybe once upon a time you could take any thing in the ring with a little work on it, but good conformation is nothing to overlook, and with that in place, along with good feed, your work is really only in keeping a good weight and building some muscle through conscientious work on a mature horse (I never work young, growing horses, personally, but that's just my .02)

Basic sound conformation and good health are the only ways you get to have a good halter horse. Without it, you may as well not waste your efforts working them to try and make them a winning halter horse. A performance horse is just fine, though basic sound conformation is still ESSENTIAL.

Not all Halter horses are just pulled from the pasture, in order to be competitive at a World or National level, I truly believe you do have to work them as well as have the building blocks in place such as good conformation, good feed, health care in order to be the top of the top. My hat's off to those that do. I do not have the time nor the facilities to be there, but I like to think a few of my horses are good enough for someone to take on that might have those things and do better than I could with them, simply because at this time I am a stay-at-home mom.

Please don't think anyone's picking on you, you are always able to take what the rest of us say and do with it what you will. I sure know I have a lot to learn even still, and I'm even learning from people who are "new" themselves, as well as those who already know more than me, others I will never know as much as.

I hope this helps you somehow, and you feel confident in making better breeding choices, buying breeding stock, or just evaluating what you have.

I know this is way off topic, but still, it is relevant in a manner of fact.

Liz M.

 

[lyn_j]

Liz thanks for the lovely examples for whatever reason Mouses pic didnt show up for me but everyone elses did. Sometimes there are others reading besides the ones who ask the questions and , some one some where will learn something.

Thanks for helping out.

Lyn

 

[nootka]

Thanks, Lyn, I know they are "pro" pics (I did fix Mouse's), but I was there when they were taken, there is no voodoo or magic done w/the photo editing, they are "as is" and that is how they look, just hanging around the pasture (maybe not set up and ears up, but you get the idea).

NO way you can condition leg proportion, or bad angles off of them. It would be like saying you could jog yourself into a longer leg length yourself, or add some other part of your self that wasn't already there..yes, you will be more fit with a more appealing look, but you won't change your hat size by jogging....

If so, then I'd sweat that head off of Mouse. *LOL*

Liz

 

[lyn_j]

You know Liz, I think the reason I love Mouse so much is because he reminds me of Midas in build.This is a two year old pic of Midas, I have one ordered from Nationals but this will show what I mean. Our boys are built well, fed well and dont need alot of conditioning. He was at his first show here, Tracy took the picture for me. This was also straight from the field , no round pening nothing but a good diet and a good foundation of structure.

Midas also is one of the heavier bonned guys in the ring today..... he is All Star Champion 32-34, Champion Sr Champion. Every thing pretty much in the right place still not perfect. but close at least structurally. Like Mouse. Midas was very twig like as a new baby and yearling. he "boned up" as a two and three year old.

Maybe we should start a thread of how they change tomorrow.... I have some filly -mare examples also.

foals dont get any more refined as they age.... they are as refined as they will get as babies. Bone doesnt get smaller as they age only bigger.

Legs must be in balance with bodies .WEight doesnt change that proportion. Heads dont get smaller just sometimes bodies catch up... or not.

Lyn

 

[miniwhinny]

How is your mares bite? Do her front teeth, top and bottom, line up prefectly ?

 

[tagalong]

Having seen the new pictures... I can only nod in agreement with nootka and lyn. Cute? Yes.

Part of a breeding program? No.

 

[slv]

I know sometimes the truth is difficult to accept even though folks post on here asking for it. I feel we are all at different stages of this game but we should never close our eyes to people that have gained knowledge through experience and witnessing others experiences, either good or bad. I am always open to learning about these minis and take all comments into consideration and try and learn from them. I think lots of very experienced people have quit critiquing others horses because the person asking for it seems to get highly offensive about the truth. I know this post was asking what is she worth. Well along with that folks are going to tell you why she is only worth a certain amount.

I have to say that I would not breed this mare for several reasons that have already been mentioned. I also would not breed that stallion, although I may be overstepping my bounds here because I don't think comment on that was asked for. To me they both have extremely poor rear ends, are both heavy on the front end and also have other comformational faults. I cannot see anything but a pet quality foal coming from this cross and we all know that there are too many of them out there now.

I really hate that everyone has to say this, but I will repeat it as well, my opinion is not intended to insult anyone. It is only that, an opinion. I will add however that I went to the AMHA World Show two years in a row and came home and sold out over half of my herd. I loved them all but it became very apparent to me that there was much better out there. I will maintain that we all need to be educated BEFORE we decide to breed horses. We also must be able to accept the truth and move on from there.

I know people that spend their last dimes on horses. Every time they get extra money, they go and buy a horse. They know nothing about conformation, they don't care. They breed certain colors to certain colors and certain sizes to certain sizes. They breed a stallion with extreme dwarf characteristics to some very small mares. They also have ended up with several dystocias and high vet bills and loss of animals lives. Have they learned? Don't think so. Don't think they care to. To me that is a shame. However, these people call themselves BREEDERS and are proud of it. :no:

 

[heart k ranch]

THAT WAS RUDE. I LOVE MY STUD, AND HE HASN'T GONE TO SHOWS, because of his neck!!!!!! Did I ask you to say anything about my stud. I got this stud from a breeder that knows what there doing, and has a lot of nationals and WORLDS under their belt. or more than most of ya'll

I got a bad picture of him, BUT I DON'T LIKE THE "ARAB" LOOK, I like the quarter horse look. I breed for me and WHAT IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LIKE....

I'm not trying to be rude but gosh!!!!!!!!!

slv, I'm taking addvice from someone and has helped me build my herd. I know they know what their doing so, That means I have some really good horses.....

How is your mares bite? Do her front teeth, top and bottom, line up prefectly ?

yes her teeth line up perfect!!!