Hopefully an interesting and informative post,

[RhineStone]

Thank you, Myrna!
Your observations are quite accurate. At the time this video was shot. Mingus was raring to go, excited by his equine rivals and excited about having room to open up. I was most definitely guilty of getting caught off balance (esp. where I'm using the wooden seat training cart), even though I was the one giving the commands. He would move, I'd fall back... Not making excuses, as I don't feel that that excuse me.

I'm also terrible about wanting to lean forward at fast trot or canter...

Looking at various photos and videos, I am horribly inconsistent in my hand and arm position -- I could definitely use someone to rag on me while we work to keep me in line.

Mingus has a very soft mouth, and in ground-driving we had a fantastic communication between my hands and his mouth -- to the point where I could pretty much think about where I wanted him to go and he would go there. I feel that I've regained a lot of this while in the cart, but I still need to work and become consistent, and I really need to work on hand and arm position. I love your baby bird analogy -- and the keyboard position.

I so appreciate your observations, and I feel like I've just completed a lesson. I don't want to be the one holding Mingus back, and the comments I've received are an enormous help.

Since I typed the last post and even before Susanne's post, I rewatched the video, but I had to go outside to do chores before it got too dark and cold. (My hands still froze up...

)

I can see where at times you have very little contact on Mingus' mouth (I have to ask, how did he get that name?). Then at other times, especially later on the beach, he asks for more rein, but doesn't get it. I think you just missed the signal. I'm not at all saying that at every point that a horse pulls on the rein, he should get more, but in this case, he is going to need more rein to be able to stretch down, which is where he needs to be. He needs to be encouraged to stretch down, and this can be accomplished through half halts. Think of massaging your horse's mouth, kind of like a cat "padding" a soft spot before laying down, but with a squeeze instead of a push. This will encourage him to stretch down, and when he does, let the rein out with him, quit massaging and let him be. Then repeat, then repeat, then repeat....

Another technique for asking the horse to put it's head down comes from John Lyons. He says to hold one rein and when the horse even thinks about lowering his head, you release the rein as the "reward". The concept is, "add pressure, when result is gained, release pressure". Pretty soon, the horse figures out that a hold on the rein means put head down. Simple behavior modification, Pavlov's bell, etc. I sometimes start that lesson standing in the barn aisle, especially with a mini that you can't ride. John says that you have to do something 100 times before they get it, but I think he says that so humans will do it 50 or even 25 times before they expect a consistant result. I think this technique works better with light-mouthed horses than with heavier ones.

However, what really got Alax to drop his head was small circles. Again, we have established that you don't do small circles with a very green horse, but like has already been said, some of these horses need to be pushed beyond baby steps now. Before we started small circle work last winter, Alax was consistantly above the bit, and he was EXTREMELY heavy on it. He would literally lean on my hands. (I doubt Mingus will do this, but he MIGHT get a little heavier before he gets lighter...) The small circles got him to rock back on his haunches and use himself properly, and the mean time, he got off my hands.

This was Alax in 2007 at his first carriage show. We acquired him in Oct. 05 as a 6-yr. old and started his driving training right away. His head also needed to come down. However, since this was his first big show, we didn't push him real hard.

(Turnout comment: I got rid of that off-white seat

to replace it with the tan below

.)

This was Alax this year running a Gambler's Choice obstacle course, so he was pretty motivated (vs. an arena class, which he gets less enthused about now

). He is really reaching down and stretching, so I have given him more rein with my elbows. Alax looks the absolute best right before he pops into a canter, and we are working this winter at trying to maintain that elevation without the canter. I noticed that is when Mingus looked good, too. Canter work will also get them to use their hinds, but Alax needs to understand that cantering is something that he only gets to do when I cue for it. Alax has one more gear now than when this photo was taken last Aug.

This was Alax when my husband was doing his dressage test at a CDE in July. Chad always wants to hold Alax up more. I like this frame, but I think it might be a little "artificial", and he didn't get very good relaxation points. I keep telling Chad to let go a little, that it will come eventually.

You can see in both photos that we have nice contact on his mouth. (Actually, I think that Chad has "pushing" hands in this photo, but I don't know how to explain that.) You aren't going to get anywhere without contact, as any horse will just shuffle around on their own accord, like the first photo. Using this heavier blue vehicle also got Alax to use his hind better.

Myrna

 

[susanne]

I have to ask, how did he get that name?

Keith and I are both jazz musicians, and our animals are all named after famous jazz musicians. Mingus is named after the late, great bass player and composer, Charles Mingus. Mingus' ego, talent, and quirky sense of humor all resemble his namesake.

Myrna, you have me dying to get out and work -- we may have to trailer to an indoor arena, as our workspace currently resembles a swimming pool. At least this gives me time to read and reread and digest your advice thoroughly. Thank you so much for taking so much time and effort with this!

Mingus is sooo polite waiting for you to let him go, Susanne. Maggie will wait but she does get impatient and will shake her head to make me hurry up.

He's so funny, because in hand he is so full of himself, but if you even show him a cart he's all business.

Kody is a sports car.. can see him begging you Leia to go faster..... zoommm...

Perfect analogy -- a TR7? Mazda Miata?

Maggie has a low neck set, as per the way her neck is tied into her shoulders. But she has some wicked tall withers, that due to conformation, makes a dip in front of her withers. Something you would more likely see in a TB.The under part of her neck is not built up at all. So this issue doesn't always mean they are ewe necked.

In winter coat

Need to take some photos that show her withers better.

I love how, even in winter, Maggie is so pleasing to study -- she is a abeautiful girl!

 

[BannerBrat]

I think we should all take an oath promising not to get offended at honest, well-intended criticism. Too often I've seen great feedback met with resentment and those who wish to share their knowledge become cautious about speaking up. With that, we lose the value of such a forum.
Meaningless compliments are just that -- meaningless. Give me that honest response anyday. Even if it makes me gulp for a moment, better that I open my eyes than go on in a bubble of ignorance.

So, here's my vow:

I, susanne, hereby promise never to take offense at honest criticism and never to suggest that I expect unwarranted praise or compliments. I love all of my horses without reserve, even as I accept their need for improvement. I seek constant improvement from myself as well and realize that this cannot happen without the honesty of others.

And, as one with an oftimes ascerbic tongue, please know that I never intend to hurt anyone, and that my jibes are more often aimed at myself than at others.

Just as a warning, however, I cannot promise the same from Keith. In his eyes, his wife and his horses (not necessarily in that order) are infallible.

[SIZE=12pt]Good Idea. [/SIZE]

I, Ashley, vow to be open minded and honest about my horses and with my training in order to help my horses and I reach our fullest potential.

Lori, Myrna, jegray21, and Shari, thank you for your insightful advice and opinions. Some of these things I've had idea's on on but honestly haven't put them into action for multiple reasons. Myrna, Alax is such a handsome fella!

And Shari, Maggie looks like such a sweetheart!

 

[maggiemae]

Thank you all sooo much for the time you've taken in sharing your experience and knowledge. I don't drive yet but I have been avidly reading and re-reading all of this in order to prepare for driving Maggie after her training this spring. This is an excellent thread. I feel encouraged to build a rein-board - and begin on it. I think it would help me see what my hands and elbows are doing and when and what the right position feels like.

 

[jegray21]

This was Alax when my husband was doing his dressage test at a CDE in July. Chad always wants to hold Alax up more. I like this frame, but I think it might be a little "artificial", and he didn't get very good relaxation points. I keep telling Chad to let go a little, that it will come eventually.

You can see in both photos that we have nice contact on his mouth. (Actually, I think that Chad has "pushing" hands in this photo, but I don't know how to explain that.) You aren't going to get anywhere without contact, as any horse will just shuffle around on their own accord, like the first photo. Using this heavier blue vehicle also got Alax to use his hind better.

Myrna

This looks good...I can see a little bit of what you are saying about artificial but his back is lifted and the stride is long so not so much artificial that the judge might say something. Good to see some working pictures at a show to know what to work for !

 

[RhineStone]

It probably doesn't look too artificial, but I know that Alax is being forced into it. Chad doesn't have hard hands, he just likes to take up more contact than I do. I hope to get Alax to maintain this frame "on his own" this year, instead of being so long and low. But I am still glad that he doesn't look like he did in '07!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Myrna, you've used some LOVELY analogies in your replies that I will be memorizing for my own use and use with my unofficial students. Thank you! There's been so much wonderful text on this thread I can't reply to everything but I picked out a couple points below that particularly stuck out at me.

This is what I saw in the video. Susanne, I'm going to "pick on you", because you were the only one I saw "in motion" other than Leia.

Hey, don't I get picked on?

We all vowed to be open to constructive criticism and that includes me.

When you first ask Mingus to "walk on", your hands remain static in the location that you left them before you asked for the cue. When I ask my horses to walk on, I always "give" the reins just a little with my elbow, so that when the horse starts that vehicle, they can get their head down a bit to "break it loose". What Mingus gets instead is resistance in the mouth, and therefore he has learned to pull that cart without dropping his head. ... When you finally do ask him to walk on, let your elbow out a little with the rein so that he can reach down with his neck and pull that cart out. As soon as he has broke that cart loose, take up the rein again.

Now I find this interesting. Releasing or softening the reins slightly as you ask them to start forward was how I always did it and is appropriate for a green horse, but when I started moving up to Preliminary my dressage trainer got after me and told me not to soften at the collected halt or in asking the horse to go forward again. She said it was important for him to learn to stay balanced at the halt and to arch his back and neck up forward into the bit to push (not pull) the cart forward from the halt. I still soften a tiny fraction but I noticed the more collected he got, the less I had to soften as the more "on his toes" he was and the less he needed that space to move forward into. He began elevating himself instead of lengthening his frame, if you will. What has your experience been with that? Does the appropriate response or give change as the horse becomes more advanced? Obviously the heavier the vehicle or less ideal the footing the more rein you have to give them, but in a packed dressage arena does the response change?

A little about hand and arm position: in the "neutral position" your elbow should be just slightly in front of your waistband. I like to tell my students that I want to put a rubber band around their elbow and attach it to their waistband. Your elbow should be well bent. Susanne, I see your arms being a little straight. Your hands should be about the same width as they are on your keyboard (on a regular keyboard, not a little, bitty laptop) if holding one rein in each hand. Your hands should be slightly above your elbow (this is not the case for riding). The backs of your hands should be at the same angle as the horse's withers. I tell my students to look at the harness saddle, and try to match that.

I usually try to square my hands above the points of my hip bones on each side. I also try to KEEP them there- no sneaking my hands across my midline (my personal bad habit) or winging them out to the side in a leading posture like I'm doing back exercises with a fitness bungee. Take up rein by drawing your body more upright, squaring your shoulders and pulling your elbows back. If the backrest of your cart won't let you do that, remodel the cart!

Looking at various photos and videos, I am horribly inconsistent in my hand and arm position -- I could definitely use someone to rag on me while we work to keep me in line.
I've tried. *LOL* I do wish we lived closer so I could do it more than once a year!

Mingus has a very soft mouth, and in ground-driving we had a fantastic communication between my hands and his mouth -- to the point where I could pretty much think about where I wanted him to go and he would go there.

The only problem was he was responding to your intentions and body language, not your hands. Remember our discussion about "spagetti reins" and the follies of trying to push your horse forward with the reins when ground-driving? When you get somewhere new like our clinic that day, he gets distracted and you have no means of communication left because he was never properly in your hands to begin with.

It's very hard to understand what a "light horse" feels like until you've experienced it. It doesn't mean that you touch their mouth and they respond instantaneously and you don't have to touch them again until the next cue. It means they are so solidly in contact with you that the least little feathering or change in your contact is immediately understood and acted upon. Kody was light in the way that Mingus can be light and I always thought that was good but it's very frustrating when trying to head straight for a set of cones and each little touch causes the horse to wobble violently from left to right and back again. You try to throw the rein away to get them to stop wobbling and then they dump their energy into the ground and go on the forehand and end up sort of oozing through the cones, whereupon you pick them up and go forward and start the cycle over again. It isn't pretty! I spent years that way before my trainer got me straightened out and introduced me to real contact. Now I know that the right thing to do is pick the horse UP with those reins, hold his energy in your hands and get him coming through his topline so he's truly "on the bit." All of a sudden there's this live-wire feel to the reins when the horse is really through and it's the most amazing feeling. It's like suddenly all the physical distance between the horse and you disappears and you might as well be riding them. Your merest thought controls their every move and the two of you think as one. It's such a WOW feeling!

I personally found this easiest to achieve when running cones or hazards because I stopped overthinking and just focused on the goal but more and more I began to be able to bring it into our dressage work and boy it showed. It's a very zen thing and self-rewarding as it's an amazing high. The hard part is getting it the first time!

The horse will only carry himself up and to the bit if he is conditioned to do that. Focus on the correct response to the driving aid meaning when I ask my horse to walk on or trot on he responds by stretching into the bit and lifting the back and pushing forward and the correct response to the half halt meaning the horse sits behind and does not just give in the pole. Too many horses just compress the neck when half halted making the back hallow. When watching the horse in the long lines there should be a clear stomach mussel line and the under mussel in the neck loose. Then you know if your horse is working "Over the back" The picture of Kody in the sliding side reins shows a nice loose trot and good stretch over the back.
Hmm, good point. I'm afraid Kody and I tend to compress that neck and hollow out when trying to collect which drives me crazy.

We were getting pretty good at the working and lengthened paces, but when I tried to introduce collection I went about it the wrong way and produced that poor result. I was just starting to do it correctly and get on the right track when Kody hurt himself; it's so frustrating! I really want to keep practicing.

From there the half halts in combination with correct amount of contact and driving aid you can shift the weight to the hide end. The horse naturally will want to brace with the new added work load. It takes a long time to develop these mussels. My only argument about side reins or contraptions with a beginner is that it might help steady the connection to the horses mouth until they learn to keep their hands still Not while driving just long lines...I do not imagine side reins and hooked to a cart are a great idea.

Ya know, I think you just pinpointed my gut-level objection to static sidereins. They're static! They teach the horse to keep his head still just like a check does and I absolutely hate that. It isn't about the head, it's about the rest of the body and a still quiet head should come as a result of the rest of the body working correctly. I REALLY don't like any device that focuses on the front end without regard to the rear or topline of the horse and I guess I've always felt that fixed side reins do that unless used very precisely. (And if you already know how to work the horse correctly from the rear, why do you need devices to get their head still?) How odd! It's nice to finally be able to articulate my feelings though.

This looks good...I can see a little bit of what you are saying about artificial but his back is lifted and the stride is long so not so much artificial that the judge might say something.

I agree with Myrna about this photo- Alax was not ready for that high of a frame and you can see the tension in him as a result. He has impulsion and is swinging his hind legs pretty far forward but he's not tracking up because he's got tension in his back in front of the hips and the energy is getting locked down at that point. He's trying to hold himself up properly and use his underline but doesn't quite have the strength and as a result he's not raising the root of his neck that extra little bit that would put his head on the vertical and allow him to work through his back and get his hind end well under him. Given a little more time he'll be able to do it, but at this point he'd be better off working lower as Myrna discussed. Great reference photo Myrna!

I'm so glad new drivers are enjoying this thread. Thank you for posting and letting us know we're on the right track!

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

My comments in red below.

Myrna, you've used some LOVELY analogies in your replies that I will be memorizing for my own use and use with my unofficial students. Thank you! There's been so much wonderful text on this thread I can't reply to everything but I picked out a couple points below that particularly stuck out at me.
I use those analogies all the time with my students. Sometimes I really have to think about it hard to come up with a new one if a student doesn't understand. It's my job to get across my idea to the student, not their problem trying to figure out what I am saying.

This is what I saw in the video. Susanne, I'm going to "pick on you", because you were the only one I saw "in motion" other than Leia.

Hey, don't I get picked on?

We all vowed to be open to constructive criticism and that includes me.

Ok, but I don't know if I'll get at it tonight. Actually, it might be a couple days with the weekend coming up. (I have to work around my husband being home!)

When you first ask Mingus to "walk on", your hands remain static in the location that you left them before you asked for the cue. When I ask my horses to walk on, I always "give" the reins just a little with my elbow, so that when the horse starts that vehicle, they can get their head down a bit to "break it loose". What Mingus gets instead is resistance in the mouth, and therefore he has learned to pull that cart without dropping his head. ... When you finally do ask him to walk on, let your elbow out a little with the rein so that he can reach down with his neck and pull that cart out. As soon as he has broke that cart loose, take up the rein again.

Now I find this interesting. Releasing or softening the reins slightly as you ask them to start forward was how I always did it and is appropriate for a green horse, but when I started moving up to Preliminary my dressage trainer got after me and told me not to soften at the collected halt or in asking the horse to go forward again. She said it was important for him to learn to stay balanced at the halt and to arch his back and neck up forward into the bit to push (not pull) the cart forward from the halt. I still soften a tiny fraction but I noticed the more collected he got, the less I had to soften as the more "on his toes" he was and the less he needed that space to move forward into. He began elevating himself instead of lengthening his frame, if you will. What has your experience been with that? Does the appropriate response or give change as the horse becomes more advanced? Obviously the heavier the vehicle or less ideal the footing the more rein you have to give them, but in a packed dressage arena does the response change?

I would agree, the release doesn't have to be as much depending upon the level of the horse. But, I think you nailed it on the head. You are asking that of a much more "finished" horse than most posted here. Most of these need to learn "long and low" first, and then collection. Getting their heads out of the air would be the first step and lessoning the resistance will help. Also, if you are starting from a dead stop without the horse collected, then I would give them their head. If they need to put their head down to break that cart loose, why impede that motion with my hands? Frankly, we have had so few opportunities to work in a packed dressage arena, that I'm pretty sure Alax would need to flex down still at this point, as Alax's carts tend to be heavier than your average mini cart (Alax feels "scary" in a cart that is too light, does that make sense?). Also, I would let that horse "warm up" before I would make him step forward in a collected frame without the give, i.e. I wouldn't put my horse to, grab him up in a collected frame and then ask him to step into it. I try to warm up on a fairly loose (albeit still with contact) rein, and then ask for collection later. Yes, when stopped at X in a nice square halt ready to move off, I wouldn't "throw my horse away" by giving too much rein that he slops all over the place. (I think that riding Saddle Seat is a great benefit for learning how to properly collect a driving horse, and probably Dressage, but I rode Saddle Seat more when I was younger, because I thought that Dressage was boring.)

A little about hand and arm position: in the "neutral position" your elbow should be just slightly in front of your waistband. I like to tell my students that I want to put a rubber band around their elbow and attach it to their waistband. Your elbow should be well bent. Susanne, I see your arms being a little straight. Your hands should be about the same width as they are on your keyboard (on a regular keyboard, not a little, bitty laptop) if holding one rein in each hand. Your hands should be slightly above your elbow (this is not the case for riding). The backs of your hands should be at the same angle as the horse's withers. I tell my students to look at the harness saddle, and try to match that.

I usually try to square my hands above the points of my hip bones on each side. That would be good PENDING YOU HAD LITTLE HIPS!!!

Mine are bigger in the winter! Less work, more computer, more eating to keep me warm!

I also try to KEEP them there- no sneaking my hands across my midline (my personal bad habit) or winging them out to the side in a leading posture like I'm doing back exercises with a fitness bungee. Take up rein by drawing your body more upright, squaring your shoulders and pulling your elbows back. If the backrest of your cart won't let you do that, remodel the cart!

I can relate to the midline crossover, I used to do that riding Hunt Seat. One visualization for hand position is "flying", when your elbows leave your sides and you look like you are ready for takeoff! That also tends to happen when hands are too far apart. The other visualization that I just figured out from my chiropractor is to raise the posture not by tipping the head back, but by doing a "chin tuck". Sally Swift has this great drawing of a rider being pulled up by a spring in the sky, but I have to remember to attach the spring to the top BACK of my head and not the middle. This "flattens" my back better, and I don't look like I have a hump on my back then.

The biggest thing that I think I figured out this year is that good hands are where they HAVE to be. They aren't "stuck" in one spot, banging the horse's mouth, they move with the horse's mouth (back, neck, etc.), but really this takes YEARS to develop. That is why experienced drivers clean up against novice drivers. It should LOOK like your hands are remaining still, but really the communication is so subtle that judges and anyone else don't see your pinky fingers et al move. (I knew it before, I just learned it better this year.)

Looking at various photos and videos, I am horribly inconsistent in my hand and arm position -- I could definitely use someone to rag on me while we work to keep me in line.
I've tried. *LOL* I do wish we lived closer so I could do it more than once a year!

Mingus has a very soft mouth, and in ground-driving we had a fantastic communication between my hands and his mouth -- to the point where I could pretty much think about where I wanted him to go and he would go there.

The only problem was he was responding to your intentions and body language, not your hands. Remember our discussion about "spagetti reins" and the follies of trying to push your horse forward with the reins when ground-driving? When you get somewhere new like our clinic that day, he gets distracted and you have no means of communication left because he was never properly in your hands to begin with.

It's very hard to understand what a "light horse" feels like until you've experienced it. It doesn't mean that you touch their mouth and they respond instantaneously and you don't have to touch them again until the next cue. It means they are so solidly in contact with you that the least little feathering or change in your contact is immediately understood and acted upon. Kody was light in the way that Mingus can be light and I always thought that was good but it's very frustrating when trying to head straight for a set of cones and each little touch causes the horse to wobble violently from left to right and back again. You try to throw the rein away to get them to stop wobbling and then they dump their energy into the ground and go on the forehand and end up sort of oozing through the cones, whereupon you pick them up and go forward and start the cycle over again. It isn't pretty! I spent years that way before my trainer got me straightened out and introduced me to real contact. Now I know that the right thing to do is pick the horse UP with those reins, hold his energy in your hands and get him coming through his topline so he's truly "on the bit." All of a sudden there's this live-wire feel to the reins when the horse is really through and it's the most amazing feeling. It's like suddenly all the physical distance between the horse and you disappears and you might as well be riding them. Your merest thought controls their every move and the two of you think as one. It's such a WOW feeling!

I personally found this easiest to achieve when running cones or hazards because I stopped overthinking and just focused on the goal but more and more I began to be able to bring it into our dressage work and boy it showed. It's a very zen thing and self-rewarding as it's an amazing high. The hard part is getting it the first time!

It is VERY helpful for a novice driver to drive a "finished" horse and see how it is SUPPOSED to feel. Our big gelding is good in the fact that if you don't drive him properly, he isn't going to "cover" for you. He is very patient with new drivers, but he will do exactly what the driver/rider tells him, correct or not, "Oh, you didn't want to turn into that wall?"

You have to DRIVE him. This teaches drivers to really learn proper cues well.

The horse will only carry himself up and to the bit if he is conditioned to do that. Focus on the correct response to the driving aid meaning when I ask my horse to walk on or trot on he responds by stretching into the bit and lifting the back and pushing forward and the correct response to the half halt meaning the horse sits behind and does not just give in the pole. Too many horses just compress the neck when half halted making the back hallow. When watching the horse in the long lines there should be a clear stomach mussel line and the under mussel in the neck loose. Then you know if your horse is working "Over the back" The picture of Kody in the sliding side reins shows a nice loose trot and good stretch over the back.
Hmm, good point. I'm afraid Kody and I tend to compress that neck and hollow out when trying to collect which drives me crazy.

We were getting pretty good at the working and lengthened paces, but when I tried to introduce collection I went about it the wrong way and produced that poor result. I was just starting to do it correctly and get on the right track when Kody hurt himself; it's so frustrating! I really want to keep practicing.

From there the half halts in combination with correct amount of contact and driving aid you can shift the weight to the hide end. The horse naturally will want to brace with the new added work load. It takes a long time to develop these mussels. My only argument about side reins or contraptions with a beginner is that it might help steady the connection to the horses mouth until they learn to keep their hands still Not while driving just long lines...I do not imagine side reins and hooked to a cart are a great idea.

Ya know, I think you just pinpointed my gut-level objection to static sidereins. They're static! They teach the horse to keep his head still just like a check does and I absolutely hate that. It isn't about the head, it's about the rest of the body and a still quiet head should come as a result of the rest of the body working correctly. I REALLY don't like any device that focuses on the front end without regard to the rear or topline of the horse and I guess I've always felt that fixed side reins do that unless used very precisely. (And if you already know how to work the horse correctly from the rear, why do you need devices to get their head still?) How odd! It's nice to finally be able to articulate my feelings though.

And again, just because hands LOOK still, technically they are not. They are adjusting, giving, taking. Yes, they are not moving all over the place. It's kind of like driving a car. The car remains straight on the road, but you have to make subtle "corrections" in the steering wheel to keep it there. If you keep the wheel static, the car will eventually go off the road, even on a "straight" road.

I'm so glad new drivers are enjoying this thread. Thank you for posting and letting us know we're on the right track!

If there is anything that is said that doesn't make sense to you all, make sure you let us know. Again, it is the instructor's job to make sure the student understands, not the other way around. (That makes it sound like I know it all, but that is not my intention.

I just figure that there are lots of new drivers learning from this discussion, and those of us that have been driving for a while LOVE to get new drivers going on the right track!)

Leia

Myrna

 

[jegray21]

Ok I can not seem to get the hang of the quote part of the forum...and honestly in my 20 years of dressage training have never looked so in depth into the side rein thing but I do understand both sides of the argument and am going to tell you that with some horses like my Friesian side reins did absolutely not work at all and were hardly used. They are not something that should be worked in forever. I use sliding side reins and German martingales which are irrelevant in driving.

In general things that hold the head in place are called draw reins. The proper use of the side reins the horses really can move the head above the bit below the bit behind the bit just within a smaller range of motion. Though this argument seems pointless at this point..lol not everyone likes them and the certainly are not the only way to teach a horse to be through. If you do not drive the horse forward and use your half halts on the lounge line and you count on the fixed side reins to do all the work then the horse will set his head. More so in the use of draw reins. All my point was and the use of them for me is starting a green horse to help simplify the concept to him of where he should strive to go. Once the back lifts the horse finds it comfortable and does not use them at all and they go loose. After that I do not use them at all. IF you just stick the side reins on and shorten them until the head is down and let the horse go in a circle there is not learning or training in that. if your sliding side reins offer to many answers to the solution here is where I want you to work then the horse goes in a circle looking for something they have no idea what it is and my never find. Some do some will go in circles for days or weeks.

As a trainer it is important to evaluate the horse's personality, physical conformation, and use a theory that fits that horse. I have been blessed with the opportunity to train under top trainers of many different theory and can chose the one that matches the horse. In Germany and at Friesian breeding farm I worked at in the states the horse had to ride and drive and our training had to make sense to both disciplines.

But now we start to get into the German training system vs the Dutch vs the Spanish. And this discussion can get very interesting! To drive the horse to a steady contact or to get to horse through lack of contact to seek the bit....I have found each horse is difference and no one system works for all horses. big or small same concept

The time that I spent in Germany was spent studying the conformation of the horses and the location of the reflexes that trigger different reactions in the horse. Meaning Inside leg pushes on inside rib cage here and it blocks the horses inside hind and two inches forward it encourages it to reach farther forward. The horse truly does release chemicals in the brain that relax them when their head is down. but also they feel more vulnerable when the head is down and "round" because they can no longer "see" all around them. This is where the resistance comes from when first learning to work round the conflict in" I want to feel relaxed but I do not feel safe". This is where consistency build trust. and a trusting horse will move his little heart out for you! Nothing more brilliant than watching ultimate thoroughness

This resistance will show up in the first stage when learning to be round and what contact is. And usually appears again when adding in collection..then lateral work...and so on. If when the horse picks his head up because of the change in work load and you drop contact or soften the contact in that moment and the horse puts his head down you still do not have completely connected horse. its an obsession that we dressage people obsess about each moment of each session of each horse : ) and I have ten horses..lol

food for thought....

 

[MiLo Minis]

All my point was and the use of them for me is starting a green horse to help simplify the concept to him of where he should strive to go. Once the back lifts the horse finds it comfortable and does not use them at all and they go loose. After that I do not use them at all. IF you just stick the side reins on and shorten them until the head is down and let the horse go in a circle there is not learning or training in that. if your sliding side reins offer to many answers to the solution here is where I want you to work then the horse goes in a circle looking for something they have no idea what it is and my never find. Some do some will go in circles for days or weeks.
To drive the horse to a steady contact or to get to horse through lack of contact to seek the bit....I have found each horse is difference and no one system works for all horses. big or small same concept

I will use a chambon on those that are having difficulty grasping the downward concept - that gives them no choice really but down with some flexibility. Again that is not something I would use on any kind of regular basis or for any length of time but just long enough to get through to them. Then back to the sliding side reins and then on to hitching and driving with and without the side reins.

The horse truly does release chemicals in the brain that relax them when their head is down. but also they feel more vulnerable when the head is down and "round" because they can no longer "see" all around them. This is where the resistance comes from when first learning to work round the conflict in" I want to feel relaxed but I do not feel safe". This is where consistency build trust. and a trusting horse will move his little heart out for you! Nothing more brilliant than watching ultimate thoroughness



and that is why I work so hard to develop trust in the horses I am working with. Any horse that gives himself to me deserves no less.

This resistance will show up in the first stage when learning to be round and what contact is. And usually appears again when adding in collection..then lateral work...and so on. If when the horse picks his head up because of the change in work load and you drop contact or soften the contact in that moment and the horse puts his head down you still do not have completely connected horse.

And no matter how long you have been riding or driving you can still have those unconnected moments caused by and accidental miscommunication

food for thought.... and VERY tasty food!

 

[RhineStone]

The BIGGEST, most IMPORTANT concept that I have learned from horse training/people training, is to keep your toolbox open! There is no one way that is THE way. If that was the case, there would be only one trainer and training method that we all follow. I have an eclectic toolbox. I use a little "traditional" methods, a little John Lyons, a little Monty Roberts, a little Jeff Morse (Morgan driving trainer), Sally Swift, Heike Bean, Helen Crabtree (Saddle Seat), a little of other driving trainers I have watched and listened to, etc. (I haven't been able to get into Parelli, although their horse personality stuff is interesting. My husband and I basically feel that Parelli gives people with less experience a "system" to follow, which is fine, but we feel it's all too much about "you have to do it this way, and buy my stuff to get there"....but I digress.)

My point is that every horse and every human is different. That is why sometimes I really have to think of a different way to teach to help students understand what I am trying to say, and reframe my teaching for them. It is really satisfying when all of a sudden you seem to use just the right analogy or explanation, and the student does exactly what needs to happen!

I think that the other difference in horse training methods stems from people's timelines for the horse's development. Like Lori said somewhere, she really only has the horses for a short time in comparison. That is probably the biggest reason that I really don't like taking in outside horses for training. It's not that I couldn't do it, but I just like taking my time, and people aren't willing to pay me to take my time, with good reason. The investment they would have in the training would exceed the value of the horse! This is why I prefer to teach people instead of their horses.

Ok, I got to go rewatch that video, and "pick on" Leia. I have a little bit of time.

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

Leia (et al),

I watched the beach video again (it STILL blows my mind that you all get to drive your horses (and cars) on the beach! The environmentalists around here would have a HISSY FIT!). Regardless....

I also watched some other videos of all phases of CDEs. I'm not sure that I am going to give Leia any comments that she doesn't already know. Leia's position is great. Her hands are quiet and steady, and her posture is better than mine (my vice I have to work on

). Leia seems to "talk" a lot to Kody, which is fine, just make sure that you don't talk so much that he "tunes you out". Chad hardly talks at all to Spider, and sometimes Spider needs the extra encouragement. I catch Chad "growling" at Spider, which is not at all what he needs. That horse is one who seems to need confidence from his driver, especially in "scary" circumstances. He needs an "it's Ok, you can do it" from Mom or Dad. Alax, on the other hand, is pretty good most of the time, but needs a balance between "you can do it" and "that's enough, get your butt in there!" It's a fine line.

Kody seems to get "fussy" in the bridle. I know that you have tried a multitude of bits. Have you got the right one now since the videos? His biggest problem seems that he gets behind the vertical, not to be confused with getting behind the bit, because it doesn't look like he's coming off the bit...

. This is a CHALLENGING problem, but seems to go away more with impulsion. Which leads me to my next comment. Don't be afraid to take up your reins in the left hand to use your whip in the right. I asked this question of a number of judges as to whether or not that is acceptable (it would NEVER be in the riding ring!), and they said by all means! Whatever you need to do to get the performance out of the horse. It says in the ADS rules that using a one or two-handed method is acceptable, but I wasn't sure if you could pass in between them. It is. Then you can really get after him without dropping the right rein. This would be absolutely detrimental in dressage. Also, I would get a whip with a longer lash and use it on his belly, like you would if you were riding him. Flick your wrist around to the right, and "sting" him there (that is a strong word, but for lack of another). I find that lashes that are too short are useless for me, and you end up using the shaft more instead of the lash (which is a bit of an "elementary" use of the whip, except in hazards). A longer lash has better "flick", but you also have to practice using it and not get it caught in parts of the harness, etc. We practice using the lash to knock balls off cones. You have to use a bit of an upward motion to do it, but you can actually get those balls sailing a bit!

I thought of another technique that would help beginners learn better hand position. Muffy Seaton advocates using the "bridge" between hands. Although I don't like using it, I find that it helps beginners learn to keep their hands in a steady position. They can't "pull them apart" then. Also, they learn to be more "subtle" with their cues, because they can't move the reins very far forward and back without affecting the other rein. We can have a bigger discussion on this technique if you all want. I have to go help my husband now.

Myrna

 

[jegray21]

Leia (et al),I watched the beach video again (it STILL blows my mind that you all get to drive your horses (and cars) on the beach! The environmentalists around here would have a HISSY FIT!). Regardless....

I also watched some other videos of all phases of CDEs. I'm not sure that I am going to give Leia any comments that she doesn't already know. Leia's position is great. Her hands are quiet and steady, and her posture is better than mine (my vice I have to work on

). Leia seems to "talk" a lot to Kody, which is fine, just make sure that you don't talk so much that he "tunes you out". Chad hardly talks at all to Spider, and sometimes Spider needs the extra encouragement. I catch Chad "growling" at Spider, which is not at all what he needs. That horse is one who seems to need confidence from his driver, especially in "scary" circumstances. He needs an "it's Ok, you can do it" from Mom or Dad. Alax, on the other hand, is pretty good most of the time, but needs a balance between "you can do it" and "that's enough, get your butt in there!" It's a fine line.

Kody seems to get "fussy" in the bridle. I know that you have tried a multitude of bits. Have you got the right one now since the videos? His biggest problem seems that he gets behind the vertical, not to be confused with getting behind the bit, because it doesn't look like he's coming off the bit...

. This is a CHALLENGING problem, but seems to go away more with impulsion. Which leads me to my next comment. Don't be afraid to take up your reins in the left hand to use your whip in the right. I asked this question of a number of judges as to whether or not that is acceptable (it would NEVER be in the riding ring!), and they said by all means! Whatever you need to do to get the performance out of the horse. It says in the ADS rules that using a one or two-handed method is acceptable, but I wasn't sure if you could pass in between them. It is. Then you can really get after him without dropping the right rein. This would be absolutely detrimental in dressage. Also, I would get a whip with a longer lash and use it on his belly, like you would if you were riding him. Flick your wrist around to the right, and "sting" him there (that is a strong word, but for lack of another). I find that lashes that are too short are useless for me, and you end up using the shaft more instead of the lash (which is a bit of an "elementary" use of the whip, except in hazards). A longer lash has better "flick", but you also have to practice using it and not get it caught in parts of the harness, etc. We practice using the lash to knock balls off cones. You have to use a bit of an upward motion to do it, but you can actually get those balls sailing a bit!

I thought of another technique that would help beginners learn better hand position. Muffy Seaton advocates using the "bridge" between hands. Although I don't like using it, I find that it helps beginners learn to keep their hands in a steady position. They can't "pull them apart" then. Also, they learn to be more "subtle" with their cues, because they can't move the reins very far forward and back without affecting the other rein. We can have a bigger discussion on this technique if you all want. I have to go help my husband now.

Myrna

we used to hold a pen or pencil under our thumbs...to take care of flying elbows string from belt loop to elbow ever time you would move you would feel it. not sure how to do that while driving in a cart...if the trainer was really mean ever time we slouched we would get smacked in the back with a lounge whip! We would practice our position on bouncy balls with pretend reins...not sure if that would help position while driving in a cart or not

Body awareness is a hard thing to learn! Ekart Miner ( I apologize I can not find the correct spelling of his name I will find it somewhere). Had some amazing exercises to help be aware of what your body parts were doing on a horse...like floating elbows, cocked heads, rolled shoulders...The main thing I took away from him was to practice what you wanted to look like not on the horse and watch a lot of people do what you wanted to look like and visualize it. It is amazing what visualization of a dressage test does to improve it! He was a bit out there with some of his theory..I will see if I can look up the notes many of them might help beginner drivers with the upper body position and keeping elbows in and not crossing hands over their body...

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Leia (et al),I watched the beach video again (it STILL blows my mind that you all get to drive your horses (and cars) on the beach! The environmentalists around here would have a HISSY FIT!). Regardless....

Oh, there are beaches and places on beaches you definitely cannot go around here.

For some reason they have fits about driving over oyster beds!

I also watched some other videos of all phases of CDEs. I'm not sure that I am going to give Leia any comments that she doesn't already know. Leia's position is great. Her hands are quiet and steady, and her posture is better than mine (my vice I have to work on

). Leia seems to "talk" a lot to Kody, which is fine, just make sure that you don't talk so much that he "tunes you out".

You're so correct that every horse is different. Kody is a very mentally active, confident, forward horse who doesn't require much reassurance but he's not a natural speed demon and things can change with him in an instant. I never know until I hit the ingate if he's going to be forward in his dressage test or lose all impulsion (as in that Lincoln Creek video from our first year of Prelim) or if he's going to turn way too sharp or not at all when I ask in that hazard. A lot of it depends on how he's doing chiropractically and that can change from the start of Section A to the first Hazard in E.

That means that on many of our videos I'm either urging him to go faster, to hang in there, or am startled into talking to him more than usual just trying to get him through whatever the problem is this time!

He needs to be exhorted to get into the water for instance because he well remembers that the gravel underwater used to hurt his feet before I started keeping his hooves longer. All command phrases are prefaced with his name so I know he definitely tunes into them. The rest of the time he's listening quite hard to the tone of my voice and knows very well when I'm talking to him versus on a cell phone or talking to another driver. He's a smart cookie!

It's funny because we can drive for hours in the woods without saying a word but on marathon it seems like I barely shut up.

Kody seems to get "fussy" in the bridle. I know that you have tried a multitude of bits. Have you got the right one now since the videos? His biggest problem seems that he gets behind the vertical, not to be confused with getting behind the bit, because it doesn't look like he's coming off the bit...

. This is a CHALLENGING problem, but seems to go away more with impulsion.

He's always been very reactive. My trainer recommended a flash noseband but I felt (correctly, as it turns out) that he was trying to tell me something and I didn't want to cut off his feedback until I'd fixed all the problems. He immediately got much quieter and steadier on the bit we use now and improvements in my hands solved a lot of the rest of it. I don't think I've posted a driving video of him since 2007 and most of our best progress came in late 2007 and all of 2008...guess I should fix that! In the Lincoln Creek videos for instance he was both chiropractically "out" in his lower neck and suffering from cedar allergies I hadn't yet identified which made him feel lethargic and out of it. He absolutely DIED on me after the 13th cone. As he got better impulsion and learned to be more powerful in 2008 we did develop a problem with him going behind the vertical when he objected to being held back but I'm fairly confident that with what I've learned since then I'd be able to work through it if we were able to drive again. Good halt halts, driving him forward and all of that!

Also, I would get a whip with a longer lash and use it on his belly, like you would if you were riding him. Flick your wrist around to the right, and "sting" him there (that is a strong word, but for lack of another). I find that lashes that are too short are useless for me, and you end up using the shaft more instead of the lash (which is a bit of an "elementary" use of the whip, except in hazards). A longer lash has better "flick", but you also have to practice using it and not get it caught in parts of the harness, etc. We practice using the lash to knock balls off cones. You have to use a bit of an upward motion to do it, but you can actually get those balls sailing a bit!

I was guessing when I ordered that first green Ultralite whip and would definitely make some adjustments to the measurements if I were ordering again. The biggest problem is that the shaft is too long so the lash ends up flicking him around the withers and shoulders even when I've choked up on the stock. I found another black Ultralite at the National Drive which had a slightly shorter shaft and that seems to solve the problem nicely.

I have great fun using tandem whips as I LOVE sending that long lash sailing with precision!

Hehehe.

Thanks for the feedback Myrna!

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

No problem! I wish that I had some video of me that I could post and you all could tear apart

, but alas, only still photos. I think I shot video of OTHER people driving Alax, but not me!

(Of course, we don't have a digital video camera either....still just the tape one.)

"I was guessing when I ordered that first green Ultralite whip and would definitely make some adjustments to the measurements if I were ordering again. The biggest problem is that the shaft is too long so the lash ends up flicking him around the withers and shoulders even when I've choked up on the stock. I found another black Ultralite at the National Drive which had a slightly shorter shaft and that seems to solve the problem nicely.

"

I need to order a new show whip. My practice whips are from Smucker's and are 48" with a 24" lash and I LOVE them. The problem is that the ferrules are silver and don't match my brass harness. I have painted them gold, but that isn't quite right either. So, I happened across some carbon fiber whips from Paul's Harness Shop, and really like them, but I ordered the lash too short and can't "flick" it very well. I sold one and kept one with a puny 8" lash for the kids, so they don't have to worry about getting the lash stuck in places. I wish that I could "test drive" one, because I am concerned about the shaft getting too long with the long lash. Right now, my shaft isn't too long, but would it be with a longer lash?

Where does your shaft reach on your horse that you flick him in the withers and shoulders?

Myrna