Hopefully an interesting and informative post,

[MiLo Minis]

[SIZE=12pt]Hi Lori, glad you've replied. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain.

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That's one reason that I've avoided fixed side reins, is that their fixed and really even with elastic they don't move. But my Mom has used them with her horses, I think she likes them.

And I don't rule them out completely, I just haven't used them yet. When you lunge with sliding side reins do you keep them the same length? or switch them with the inside one a little tighter?

The whole point of sliding side reins is that they slide

I use a piece of nylon rope as it slips nicely through the rings. I tie it to one ring on the side of the surcingle (I usually start fairly low to begin with and work my way up as the horse improves) then through the bit on one side, down between his front legs to a ring on the girth, up to the bit on the other side and tie it to the other side of the surcingle. This allows the whole thing to slide through no matter where the horse has his head. I start by making sure they are even but as he works himself on a circle he will gradually shorten the inside rein as he bends around the circle. When he changes direction the rein will slide through and again shorten on the inside on its own basically. They need to be adjusted loose enough that they can slide but firm enough to start that they will do the job of showing him what you want. Once he gets the hang of it you can loosen them further.

[SIZE=12pt]Could you explain more about what you see in Banner's conformation. I've always felt that he isn't built to work correctly, but I honestly can't pinpoint it. So if you have the time I'd love for you to explain more.

[/SIZE]

He does drop his head and work very nicely sometimes, but I have yet to get a picture of it. (of course

)

And thank you for all your other suggestions, these are all points that I am working on and keep in my head while driving. He actually moves quite straight when driving, and he seems to work best when we are actually doing something driving, like weaving through a dozen trees we have on the property and doing transitions through them. Stuff that makes him think there is actually a reason for all my madness.

But I do try to kind of vary it up to give both of us a break.

First let me tell you that my favorite driving horse has some of the same conformational flaws that Banner exhibits so I in no way saying I don't like your boy

And he certainly has some very good qualities that will make him a wonderful driving horse, the most important one is that he is naturally straighter by far then Mingus and shows a natural tendency to bend correctly. I think he is going to be an athlete. He loses that when you put him in the shafts but it is there and so you know you can bring it out with the right work.

Anyway here goes: His head is a bit on the large size which is quite typical of many Minis. He has quite a ewed neck (and this is his biggest fault that he has to overcome for driving) which ties in a bit low. His throatlatch is a bit on the thick side, his neck is not a great deal slimmer at the throatlatch than it is at his shoulder. All of this makes it a bit more difficult for him to get his head down where we want it to start and he will never be able to use it as well as a horse with better construction could. He has a dip both in front of the withers and behind which will make it a bit more difficult for him to use his back. He has a steep shoulder but the good thing is that he also has a steep croup to match which will help prevent stress injuries that would occur if the angles weren't matching. That steep croup will allow him to get his back end under himself a little easier but combined with his somewhat weak stifle and hock construction you are going to need to be careful not to overstress his joints. All that being said I do see good potential in this horse, he is just going to need more careful conditioning than some.

That has been what I have seen with the use of fixed side reins. Horses get stiff through the jaw and neck with excessive use of them. Yes his head might be in the right position but you don't get that free flow of energy and rounding through the back because there is tenseness there. If I am having trouble with a horse figuring out the sliding reins I will put them on, as I said, a bit overtight and more so on the inside to basically overflex his neck and turn him loose in the round pen for a short period of time - first on one side, then the other. I find then that when I go back to work with the sliding side reins they give to the soft massaging feel a lot quicker. I use them strictly as a teaching tool when needed. I do use a full cheek with them on to prevent the bit pulling through.[SIZE=12pt]I'm thinking maybe this would help my boy... I'm sure doing this would create quite a reaction.

[/SIZE]

NEVER put any auxilliary piece of equipment on a horse without allowing him to check it out on his own loose in the round pen first. This includes blinders, breeching and any sort of extra rein. Some back haphazardly, some rear, buck or kick, some run madly. Turn him loose and let him get the kinks worked out with you out of the way. Once he is comfortable with it then you can go in and work with him and then take them to the cart with you. I really don't think your boy needs a fixed side rein, he bends too nicely on his own.

I do think he would benefit from sliding side reins as I can see from your loose contact in all your photos that you really are afraid of taking contact with this horse. He NEEDS that support from your hands which, until you are more educated with your hands, the sliding side reins will help provide but you do need to take up your contact even when using them. The reins should come straight from his mouth to your hands - not taut so that you could strum a tune on them but slightly elasticy and giving, they should kind of just wave up and down slightly over the length of them with his movement. You will need to be careful to follow his head down when he offers to do so keeping the same contact all the way through.

I'm not a big contraption user, although I have never used sliding side reins. We used to use side reins, but I have found that the Three H's tend to work better for me, Hills & Half Halts. Hill work really gets them to use their butt and drop their head. Just as I have said before, they figure out that it is easier to use their rear ends to push the cart. The other nice thing about hill work, is that you don't have to have any special training to do it, and it is pretty hard to screw up if you are a novice at training horses (unless you try to drive along a side hill and roll your vehicle

).
I just don't feel it is fair to take a horse that doesn't know how to pull properly up and down a lot of hills. They won't have built up the muscles necessary to push that cart up or hold it back when going down. Not only do you risk a stress injury to a green horse by working him on hills but you also risk frightening him causing an accident. That's just my opinion and if it works for you more power to you but it isn't something I personally would consider until my horse had learned the basics of self carriage.

Another technique that will get them to use their haunches and accept bit contact better is bending and turning in obstacle work. Set up some cones or filled milk jugs or whatever about 6-8 ft. apart, and start driving through them. Again, it is pretty hard to screw up, just make your bends wide at first. Don't ask for tight turns. It also helps to "stay on the same rein", meaning when you make turns, don't go right and then left and then right. Make all your turns one direction, first. Eventually, make your turns smaller when your horse seems to "get it".

Again this is not something that I would consider doing until my horse had learned the basics of self carriage. Cones 6 to 8 feet apart are going to require a far tighter turn than I want to use when teaching a horse to relax and drop his head. Turns this tight are going to frighten and tense up a green horse which will cause him to lift his head and hollow his back. I would save these kinds of exercises for when my horse was confidant in his balance and I wanted to start working on really rocking him back on his haunches. I always start - without cones or anything that might make him leery appearing in and out of his blinders - doing serpentines and spirals, lots of gait changes, gradually tighter circles and deeper corners.

With obstacle work, horses also seem to appreciate the opportunity to "see something different" other than going round and round on a longe line. You are asking for bending in the process, but it also gives YOU a "target". The process of bending will get them to place their inside hind foot underneath themselves (or they fall over), and when they feel secure in their balance, their heads naturally come down. Most horses don't WANT to go around with their heads in the air, they just haven't figured out how to put it down and not fall over! IMO, heads have to come down in the training process before they can come back up and in for the "show frame". In my experience, using a contraption to accomplish this is a "force" that the horse has to learn to deal with instead of figuring out on his own how to balance himself. This process may take a little longer, but then you don't have deal with the compounded problem of adding tension in the training process that has to be gotten rid of.

I don't take the tension into the training process by allowing the horse to play on his own in the round pen till he is comfortable with the equipment.

I have found that some horses, that have been travelling around all their life with their nose in the air, naturally crooked (as most, if not all, are) and moving comfortably on their forehand and are quite happy moving that way, need that extra encouragement to be able to "get" that there are other ways to move when we add the weight of the cart and throw their natural balance out the window.

I find that when I ask a horse to do tight turns and actual corners before he has found his balance in the cart that adds a great deal more stress and tension than any "contraption" I choose to use. Again, this is my personal experience and opinion.

Here's a thought, for those that use sliding sidereins. The ones I have made are extremely lightweight. I like the look of the ones Leia has shown because they are still in effect even if they were looser then needed. With the ones I have they have to be quite snug or he can't feel it. Just wondering if 1. this makes any sense; and 2. if anyone thinks that could be one of the things not clicking right now.[/color][/size][/font]

Even when adjusted fairly loose the sliding side reins will still gently massage the horse's mouth and have some effect (think of the western pleasure horse and how loose their reins are) but you do need to start with them more tightly adjusted. Once your horse is working well they will just be hanging there and not really having any affect. Mine are made of 1/4" nylon rope which is VERY light and they work just fine.

 

[susanne]

Thanks, Lori -- I have worked Mingus in sliding side reins (I mentioned this earlier, but I think it's gotten lost in all of the posts and cross posts). He does very well in them, dropping his head willingly and finding a better balance. However, I've done him a disservice by not doing this enough, as he loses all of this once hitched, so a major immediate goal is to do exactly as you've suggested, frequently enough that he remembers and puts it to use when hitched.

I have been working on driving with soft, flexible contact...I had virtually no contact in the photos posted; at first Mingus acted insulted by the contact, but he's adjusting nicely.

I should probably mention that I've practically memorized Heike Bean and everything else I can get my hands on -- but it's one thing to know intellectually what I should do, and a whole 'nothing thing to put it in practice. This is the disconnect in which Mingus and I work...

 

[MiLo Minis]

Thanks, Lori -- I have worked Mingus in sliding side reins (I mentioned this earlier, but I think it's gotten lost in all of the posts and cross posts). He does very well in them, dropping his head willingly and finding a better balance. However, I've done him a disservice by not doing this enough, as he loses all of this once hitched, so a major immediate goal is to do exactly as you've suggested, frequently enough that he remembers and puts it to use when hitched.
I have been working on driving with soft, flexible contact...I had virtually no contact in the photos posted; at first Mingus acted insulted by the contact, but he's adjusting nicely.

I should probably mention that I've practically memorized Heike Bean and everything else I can get my hands on -- but it's one thing to know intellectually what I should do, and a whole 'nothing thing to put it in practice. This is the disconnect in which Mingus and I work...

The thing to remember is that when you are working in a small area or ring where you are constantly turning, rather than say out on the road or trail where you go straight for miles, your hands are virtually NEVER still. You have to be constantly GENTLY working on his mouth asking him to bend and give and turn. Coming into every change of direction or corner you are giving a half halt to let him know something is coming up, asking for bend with a pulse from your inside hand and supporting him with your outside hand holding the amount of turn, on the straightaways your hands can be quite a bit quieter but you are still asking him to drop his nose, round his back and get his back end under himself with gentle alternating pulses and small half halts to get him back on his haunches. It is hard to do this at first because you are also thinking of your own position, holding up a whip and watching where you are going. That is why it is always easier for a green driver to learn on a well experienced horse. The experienced horse will do exactly what you are telling him to do - right OR wrong!

You can quickly and easily KNOW whether you are using the right technique. A green horse who doesn't really understand what you are asking for is difficult because you never know for sure if you are asking correctly because you may not be getting exactly what you are asking for anyway. It is also easier to learn when you have someone in the middle of the ring constantly harping on you to keep that contact, give those half halts, ask for that nose to tip.......

If you are on your own where you live then you need to do the harping to yourself. From the sound of it you have educated yourself to know what you need to do. Don't get frustrated if at first you aren't getting the response you want - it takes time! Just keep working at it and it will come. Constant use of the sliding side rein at this point will give you quicker results.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Susanne, you are NOT being fair to Mingus with that photo!

Here are some I took in 2006, not that much later than your photos and long before he was driving.

Bascule, sort of:

Mingus excited in-hand (see what he does with his neck?)

At the ocean in 2008:

Mingus has a NICE butt!

Head down grazing:

One of the primary reasons I disagree that Mingus is ewe-necked is the lack of the tell-tale dip in front of the withers. The Horse Conformation Handbook by Heather Smith Thomas says, "The ewe-necked horse has an 'upside down' neck; the topline is concave rather than arched, and the head usually forms a right angle to the neck at the throat instead of a curved arch. There is a downward dip in the neck, ahead of the withers, and the muscles at the bottom surface of the neck are thicker. ... If the lower curve of the [vertebral] S is too deep and wide (no matter what the size and shape of the upper curve), the horse has a ewe neck, with a hollow ahead of the withers. Many horses with this neck configuration also have an upright shoulder; the upright shoulder and the long lower curve of the neck tend to go together." Dr. Deb Bennett's Principles of Conformation Analysis, Volume II, gets a little more specific and says, "Ewe-necked horses are usually defined as those possessing a 'sunken' or 'upside-down' crest, but the ewe-necked condition goes deeper than that, back to the bones. When the lower curve is deep and wide -- no matter what the size and shape of the upper curve may be -- the horse has the bone structure for ewe neck. ... Like Horse #1, both Horse #2 and this subject show a prolonged 'dip' in front of the withers, a telltale sign of a wide and deep lower S curve. ... In a ewe-necked individual, the upper curve of the S-shaped chain of neck vertebrae is short, while the lower curve is broad and deep. ... In an arched neck, the lower curve of the S is relatively shallow." She goes on to say that it is easier for a horse with an arched neck to contract the scalenus muscles and raise the root of the neck in a telescoping gesture than it is for a ewe-necked horse who must raise a much deeper curve.

Now I do think that both Kody and Mingus have a deeper lower curve than is desirable and it does affect how they carry themselves when driving, but Mingus lacks the dip in front of his withers and is easily able to telescope (or at least arch) his neck in these photos, something a truly ewe-necked horse could not do. He does have a definite over-development of the underline muscles which gives that unattractive bulge any time except when he's actively flexing and it's going to take a LOT of correct work to make that go away. This is Kody when I first got him (and lord I hate posting unattractive photos of him

):

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/45360/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45973/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

But despite that very bottom-heavy look, this is him the same day making the telescoping gesture.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/45011/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

And reaching without telescoping. No dip in front of the withers, bone structure is capable of arching nicely and he's got a nice long open throatlatch area that can "hook."

http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/28414/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

You can see that he's got a triangular wedge of strongly-developed muscle at the bottom of his neck around the windpipe and point of the shoulder however. A few years later, that layer of muscle had virtually vanished.

Unfortunately the really good photos I have of that are not online right now.

I'm going off on the ewe-necked thing here because I see that term tossed around a lot for horses who really aren't and I find it frustrating. So much of what we see with the minis is postural, and poor habitual muscling that makes the lower neck bulge and look thick! That isn't pure bone structure though and a horse with that problem (while never as attractive or easy to train as one built correctly to start with) can certainly learn to collect and be capable of the neck-telescoping gesture far more easily than a truly ewe-necked animal. There is no mistaking a ewe-necked, hammer-headed horse. They look like a vulture with that low-slung neck and big divot in front of the withers in all but the most correct work.

(Lori, please don't think this or any of my rants are personal. I've seen the term come up on the forum quite a bit recently and it finally seemed worth the time to discuss it.

)

Let's see, other points that have come up in the last few posts. I'm not sure I agree about tightening the sliding sidereins quite a bit to start with and then loosening them as that's not the usage I've seen recommended but am willing to be overruled as Lori has worked far, far more horses than I. I do agree with Myrna for the most part that horses will get the idea easier when actually DOING something they can see and understand but I can also see where trying to write about this might cause some confusion and MiLo is carefully clarifying some points that do need considering. Always work within the horse's comfort zone and if they aren't relaxed and enthusiastic about the activity, go back a few steps until they get it. I feel there should not BE any tension about new equipment if introduced properly- uncertainty, sure, but not tension that must be worked out. The process of trying out new tack should be a collaboration between trainer and equine, a game that they play together and is positive for the horse. That's why I prefer to start with the sidereins loose until the horse begins to realize they are leading him downwards then tighten them incrementally as he builds muscle and understanding of how to carry himself.

Jessica, three days of Locita having her rump driven off around the Horse Park by yours truly might have had something to do with her "relaxation" that day as well!

I had so much fun putting that tandem together it was ridiculous. Observers may notice that Suzy (the leader) has sliding side reins on in those photos- she was being a complete and total BRAT that morning and resisting every hint of contact so we put the sidereins on to remind her of how to round up. They were a bit too loose but kept her from flipping totally upside down and it seemed easier to leave them on for our drive as I had my hands full just directing the girls, nevermind fighting to keep my leader from inverting and over-reacting.

Suzy has made huge strides since I first met her and Jessica at the National Drive 2007. I'm so proud of those photos of her reaching forward at the walk!

Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way.

Buck and Wish both appear to be lovely, safe, happy, well-started horses who have benefitted from a solid foundation and a driver who takes her time. I think the biggest thing they both need (and Banner too) is for their driver to ask more of them!

I spent years at that level with Kody, thinking we were doing great, and then I got some lessons with a good dressage trainer who insisted (cheerfully and reasonably, with respect for the horse's comfort and ability) that I start asking for more. I was amazed how fast we progressed and how much he was capable of! We learned more in a year with her than we had in the previous three of clinicians telling us we were doing fine and to continue as we had been. Kody enjoyed the challenge. He loved it. His musculature developed rapidly and he was excited by the additional amount of power he was able to produce and was always eager to be hitched. Once a solid foundation has been laid for the actual cart work and the grown horse understands all the basics and is comfortable with his job, the time to "let them adjust" and to treat them like they're fragile babies is OVER!

Your particular horses are ready. Yes, it takes years to develop a finished dressage horse. But each year there should be visible muscular changes and improvement in the horse's carriage and honestly, yours appear to remain the same from photo to photo. The green horses clearly develop better strength and confidence in the cart (which is great!) but their posture remains the same over time just like Banner's has. Now obviously for first-year horses like Wish and Buck that's all you can reasonably expect, but next year they ought to start progressing into a more established training level frame and learning to use themselves. You guys are such good careful drivers!

I just want to see you take more contact and a more forward role in guiding your horses' progress. It would not matter if you were only interested in trail driving them but if you want to work on dressage then they need to learn to go more on their hindquarters and through their toplines. If you can't get lessons with a professional carriage driver in your area then just approach it with an attitude of play and softly experiment with the reins. See what your horses do! As long as you keep your own body relaxed and centered the horses will follow in kind; the worst they'll be is temporarily confused if you miscommunicate. Where you run into problems is when people try to grab the horse's mouth and force him into a shorter frame without any cooperation from the horse...it's the completely uncaring and aggressive attitude that causes reactive tension and unhappiness in the horse. As long as you are respectfully experimenting together in a safe way you can do little lasting harm to his training.

Leia

 

[jleonard]

Jessica, three days of Locita having her rump driven off around the Horse Park by yours truly might have had something to do with her "relaxation" that day as well!

Leia, this was actually something that I had in my first post that got deleted, but I was tired and frusterated writing the second one and forgot to add it. I was shocked when I saw her after three days and she was a different horse. Who knew that just three days with someone who actually knows how to make them work properly could have such a huge effect!

BTW, the more I see of Mingus, the more I like him

I have a picture of a truely ewe necked horse that I can scan in if anyone would like to see it.

 

[MiLo Minis]

(Lori, please don't think this or any of my rants are personal. I've seen the term come up on the forum quite a bit recently and it finally seemed worth the time to discuss it.

)
Let's see, other points that have come up in the last few posts. I'm not sure I agree about tightening the sliding sidereins quite a bit to start with and then loosening them as that's not the usage I've seen recommended but am willing to be overruled as Lori has worked far, far more horses than I. I do agree with Myrna for the most part that horses will get the idea easier when actually DOING something they can see and understand but I can also see where trying to write about this might cause some confusion and MiLo is carefully clarifying some points that do need considering. Always work within the horse's comfort zone and if they aren't relaxed and enthusiastic about the activity, go back a few steps until they get it. I feel there should not BE any tension about new equipment if introduced properly- uncertainty, sure, but not tension that must be worked out. The process of trying out new tack should be a collaboration between trainer and equine, a game that they play together and is positive for the horse. That's why I prefer to start with the sidereins loose until the horse begins to realize they are leading him downwards then tighten them incrementally as he builds muscle and understanding of how to carry himself. Leia

Don't worry Leia - I don't take it personal as I myself said that I didn't feel Mingus was truly ewe necked as I didn't see the dip in front of his withers or top of his neck on the better conformation shot that Suzanne posted, and felt that the bulge on the underside of his neck was likely caused by incorrect driving over a period of time.

After your very good indepth discussion on ewe necks it should be mentioned that with some horses that have very cresty necks it can be hard to physically see that they are ewe necked - it is not always obvious that the actual bone structure is upside down as the dip is hidden by the crestiness.

I know exactly what a ewe neck truly is and all the technical terms associated but I speak in plainer language so that other's reading won't have to take 10 minutes to work out what I said. eg. YOU - Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way. ME - he has a thick throatlatch, slightly ewed neck and is somewhat hammerheaded (head attaches to neck at a 90 degree angle instead of being more open) which makes it hard for him to tuck and use his neck. He is going to need correct work to get him dropping his head.

We agree - It's just a difference in ways of speaking.

You and I work with horses from different perspectives. As a trainer I don't have the luxury of years to invest and I also can't afford to HAVE to work through physical or mental issues caused by introducing anything such as cones or hills before their time. There are lots of horses out there of all sizes that will be quite accepting of just about anything but there are also those that will not be and you don't ALWAYS know ahead of time what is going to upset a horse. I work on a trust basis - I promise them I won't get them into anything that might get them unnecessarily upset or hurt and I always give them the opportunity to learn on their own which is ALWAYS more successful than me trying to force something on them even if I were to do it gradually. That being said I also do attempt at some point to find their breaking point because I need to know before I send them home to their owners how they are going to react as it is not possible for me to introduce them to EVERYTHING that might freak them out and they and their owners need to know how to deal with it.

To clarify adjusting your sliding side reins: When I say tight this is how I adjust them - so that he is required, when standing still with his head held naturally, to give with his nose or jaw so that when he begins to move he will feel them working on his mouth. IF you start him working and find that he is still going around with his nose in the air you can even pull him behind the vertical, turn him loose and let him learn that all he has to do is give and he will find comfort. This is not in the least bit cruel as any horse can touch his nose to his chest if he wants to and it is only going to be for however long it takes him to figure it out. Then you loosen them back off to a point where he just has to give slightly when standing still.

 

[jegray21]

we need to start analyzing short video clips! Then we can watch the movement..

 

[RhineStone]

My comments in blue below.

I'm not a big contraption user, although I have never used sliding side reins. We used to use side reins, but I have found that the Three H's tend to work better for me, Hills & Half Halts. Hill work really gets them to use their butt and drop their head. Just as I have said before, they figure out that it is easier to use their rear ends to push the cart. The other nice thing about hill work, is that you don't have to have any special training to do it, and it is pretty hard to screw up if you are a novice at training horses (unless you try to drive along a side hill and roll your vehicle

).

I just don't feel it is fair to take a horse that doesn't know how to pull properly up and down a lot of hills. They won't have built up the muscles necessary to push that cart up or hold it back when going down. Not only do you risk a stress injury to a green horse by working him on hills but you also risk frightening him causing an accident. That's just my opinion and if it works for you more power to you but it isn't something I personally would consider until my horse had learned the basics of self carriage.

Totally agree. I didn't mean a 25 degree hill, but maybe just a bit of a slope. We have a gradual hill in our pasture, and we can use as much or as little of it as we need. A 5 degree is fine and will accomplish the pulling and pushing the horse needs to learn. We don't use the hill with our very green horses, but ones that have been driving a while and still aren't using their rear ends.

Another technique that will get them to use their haunches and accept bit contact better is bending and turning in obstacle work. Set up some cones or filled milk jugs or whatever about 6-8 ft. apart, and start driving through them. Again, it is pretty hard to screw up, just make your bends wide at first. Don't ask for tight turns. It also helps to "stay on the same rein", meaning when you make turns, don't go right and then left and then right. Make all your turns one direction, first. Eventually, make your turns smaller when your horse seems to "get it".

Again this is not something that I would consider doing until my horse had learned the basics of self carriage. Cones 6 to 8 feet apart are going to require a far tighter turn than I want to use when teaching a horse to relax and drop his head. Turns this tight are going to frighten and tense up a green horse which will cause him to lift his head and hollow his back. I would save these kinds of exercises for when my horse was confidant in his balance and I wanted to start working on really rocking him back on his haunches. I always start - without cones or anything that might make him leery appearing in and out of his blinders - doing serpentines and spirals, lots of gait changes, gradually tighter circles and deeper corners.

Agreed. When I said 6-8' apart, I meant between a pair of cones so their is plenty of room to drive through them. The next set of cones might be 30-40 feet away, maybe with a little bit of a deviation, so that you have to steer a little. We start our green horses very slow and wide through the cones, and speed and tighten it up as they get more used to them. This might take a couple of years before we really take cones "at speed". We don't want to "blow the horse's mind" taking them too tight or fast. We will place cones on the "rail" of the arena, so that the horse is going through them, but is still on the "track". That way, he seems more interested than just going round and round.

We start our horses with cones even when line driving in an open bridle. That way, they are used to them right from the start. (I have known horses that will spook at cones at a show, and I don't want THAT to happen again!) We have little soccer field cones for beginning horses/drivers, and big official cones for more experienced horses/drivers. We also put PVC poles on the ground for the whole cart to drive through. We also do circles and sepentines, etc. with the cones, as it gives the horse and driver a "target" to go through. Once the horse figures out that they need to go between the cones, they will actually "aim" for them! I have seen our big horse "tip-toe" around a cone not to hit it. He knows he is not supposed to hit that cone! I guess it is from him feeling a bump with the cart along with a "agh" from us that he has figured that out.

We haven't "corrected" him for hitting a cone....

With obstacle work, horses also seem to appreciate the opportunity to "see something different" other than going round and round on a longe line. You are asking for bending in the process, but it also gives YOU a "target". The process of bending will get them to place their inside hind foot underneath themselves (or they fall over), and when they feel secure in their balance, their heads naturally come down. Most horses don't WANT to go around with their heads in the air, they just haven't figured out how to put it down and not fall over! IMO, heads have to come down in the training process before they can come back up and in for the "show frame". In my experience, using a contraption to accomplish this is a "force" that the horse has to learn to deal with instead of figuring out on his own how to balance himself. This process may take a little longer, but then you don't have deal with the compounded problem of adding tension in the training process that has to be gotten rid of.

I don't take the tension into the training process by allowing the horse to play on his own in the round pen till he is comfortable with the equipment.

I have found that some horses, that have been travelling around all their life with their nose in the air, naturally crooked (as most, if not all, are) and moving comfortably on their forehand and are quite happy moving that way, need that extra encouragement to be able to "get" that there are other ways to move when we add the weight of the cart and throw their natural balance out the window.

I find that when I ask a horse to do tight turns and actual corners before he has found his balance in the cart that adds a great deal more stress and tension than any "contraption" I choose to use. Again, this is my personal experience and opinion.

Yup, again, big wide and slow turns.

Here's a thought, for those that use sliding sidereins. The ones I have made are extremely lightweight. I like the look of the ones Leia has shown because they are still in effect even if they were looser then needed. With the ones I have they have to be quite snug or he can't feel it. Just wondering if 1. this makes any sense; and 2. if anyone thinks that could be one of the things not clicking right now.[/color][/size][/font]

Even when adjusted fairly loose the sliding side reins will still gently massage the horse's mouth and have some effect (think of the western pleasure horse and how loose their reins are) but you do need to start with them more tightly adjusted. Once your horse is working well they will just be hanging there and not really having any affect. Mine are made of 1/4" nylon rope which is VERY light and they work just fine.

The nice thing about gradual hill/grade and wide and slow cone work is that most anybody can do it without screwing it up. I would hope that people would adjust "contraptions" (for lack of a better word) more loose than tight, but I can't guarantee that. Yes, if you are experienced in using them, I bet they can accomplish what you are trying to do. I would be skeptical that some of my clients wouldn't know how much adjustment is too much. It's easier and safer with them just to use techniques they can feel confident with.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Jessica- I didn't mean that having an experience driver did it, just that she was worn out by that point! *LOL*

Jegray...um, actually I have video too.

LB "Beach Drivers" video 2008 You'll recognize Mingus from the pictures and the little spindly red-head is my Kody. He was absolutely full of it that morning! I gave up and let him run in order to put the new Frontier through its paces.

I know exactly what a ewe neck truly is and all the technical terms associated but I speak in plainer language so that other's reading won't have to take 10 minutes to work out what I said. eg. YOU - Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way. ME - he has a thick throatlatch, slightly ewed neck and is somewhat hammerheaded (head attaches to neck at a 90 degree angle instead of being more open) which makes it hard for him to tuck and use his neck. He is going to need correct work to get him dropping his head.
We agree - It's just a difference in ways of speaking.

Plain English is a very good thing.

I try to make sure I do that in harness discussions but since you'd already given her the short version I figured it wouldn't do any harm to go into a bit more detail. The worst that happens is that someone asks a question and we all get to discuss and maybe learn new things.

Ashley has gotten into technical discussions with me before and I know (or believe at least) that she enjoys them so I didn't hold back with her like I might have with a different poster.

You and I work with horses from different perspectives. As a trainer I don't have the luxury of years to invest and I also can't afford to HAVE to work through physical or mental issues caused by introducing anything such as cones or hills before their time. There are lots of horses out there of all sizes that will be quite accepting of just about anything but there are also those that will not be and you don't ALWAYS know ahead of time what is going to upset a horse. I work on a trust basis - I promise them I won't get them into anything that might get them unnecessarily upset or hurt and I always give them the opportunity to learn on their own which is ALWAYS more successful than me trying to force something on them even if I were to do it gradually.

That being said I also do attempt at some point to find their breaking point because I need to know before I send them home to their owners how they are going to react as it is not possible for me to introduce them to EVERYTHING that might freak them out and they and their owners need to know how to deal with it.

You are an excellent trainer, hon, the happy and correct horses you produce proclaim that loud and clear.

You are right that it's a very different perspective and one I find valuable to have here on the forum. I did not mean to say my way was better, only to represent another method of approaching it as many of our other posters are "home-schooling" too.

To clarify adjusting your sliding side reins: When I say tight this is how I adjust them - so that he is required, when standing still with his head held naturally, to give with his nose or jaw so that when he begins to move he will feel them working on his mouth. IF you start him working and find that he is still going around with his nose in the air you can even pull him behind the vertical, turn him loose and let him learn that all he has to do is give and he will find comfort. This is not in the least bit cruel as any horse can touch his nose to his chest if he wants to and it is only going to be for however long it takes him to figure it out. Then you loosen them back off to a point where he just has to give slightly when standing still.

I wouldn't consider that "tight."

The sidereins should be adjusted so that the horse feels them working- that's what they're for. "Tight" is when the horse is forced to go behind the vertical to find relief and that's the part I wasn't comfortable with. It makes me think of Rollkur.

Most of the horses I've worked with are built to overflex and go behind the bit so to me the idea of purposely pulling them behind the vertical even for a short time is counter-productive. They don't learn to use the right muscles, they evade and put their noses to their chests and do other stupid things. Ewww....

For horses like Banner and Mingus and Hawk that prefer to stargaze stubbornly when moving it might be a whole different ballgame. I admit freely I don't have enough experience with that kind of horse to know but I'm concerned, as Myrna expressed, that novices may try their own version of "tight" without knowing what they are doing and make things worse.

Thanks for the good discussions Lori, I really am enjoying this!

It's so fun to get in-depth on this stuff with fellow enthusiasts. Anyone else want to chime in on the subject?

Leia

 

[susanne]

I have to say this is one of the all-time great discussions on LB.

Thanks, Leia -- nothing like starting my day with that warm, fuzzy feeling (I know, I got up late...).

I do know, of course, that the image I posted is hardly the ideal photo of Mingus. Having limited photos of him, I generally select those that show specific attributes (and attitude, lol...). I really should dig out my old 35mm and get my own photos, going for the old, reliable approach of quantity equalling quality.

In regards to jargon vs plainspeak: as a writer, editor and inveterate word maven, I vote for in-depth yet clear language, simply stated yet never "dumbed-down." In other words, simplify structure but never the ideas. Any subject matter is accessible to any level of student so long as it is clearly written. Never think that the "newbie" cannot absorb more advanced ideas -- they may not be applicable just yet, but will be stored away and recalled when relevant and understandable.

(As a gardening junkie, I always laugh at articles and books aimed at beginning gardeners. The "seasoned veterans" approach the subject matter as if it were rocket science, as if they dare not tackle substantive issues and risk putting dangerous ideas in the minds of the innocent.)

 

[MiLo Minis]

I have to say this is one of the all-time great discussions on LB.
I agree. I have to say it is really nice to be able to state your ideas and opinions without anyone taking unmeant offense or going off like a rocket!

As a gardening junkie, I always laugh at articles and books aimed at beginning gardeners. The "seasoned veterans" approach the subject matter as if it were rocket science, as if they dare not tackle substantive issues and risk putting dangerous ideas in the minds of the innocent.)

I'm just used to talking to students and clients who, not having the benefit of the written word - just my voice - need short clear explanations, so that is the way I talk. Certainly don't intend to "dumb" anything down, just be clear. No rocket science here.

 

[BannerBrat]

[SIZE=12pt]Jessica, I love both your mares! They both look like really great driving horses. Locita sure can move out, wow! No real suggestions, just wanted to say I think they look really nice. [/SIZE]

The whole point of sliding side reins is that they slide I use a piece of nylon rope as it slips nicely through the rings. I tie it to one ring on the side of the surcingle (I usually start fairly low to begin with and work my way up as the horse improves) then through the bit on one side, down between his front legs to a ring on the girth, up to the bit on the other side and tie it to the other side of the surcingle. This allows the whole thing to slide through no matter where the horse has his head. I start by making sure they are even but as he works himself on a circle he will gradually shorten the inside rein as he bends around the circle. When he changes direction the rein will slide through and again shorten on the inside on its own basically. They need to be adjusted loose enough that they can slide but firm enough to start that they will do the job of showing him what you want. Once he gets the hang of it you can loosen them further.

[SIZE=12pt]Thank you Lori, I knew there was a key part missing in my set up. That ring on the girth will help things a lot! And thank you for the other advice on getting started with them. [/SIZE]

First let me tell you that my favorite driving horse has some of the same conformational flaws that Banner exhibits so I in no way saying I don't like your boy And he certainly has some very good qualities that will make him a wonderful driving horse, the most important one is that he is naturally straighter by far then Mingus and shows a natural tendency to bend correctly. I think he is going to be an athlete. He loses that when you put him in the shafts but it is there and so you know you can bring it out with the right work.
Anyway here goes: His head is a bit on the large size which is quite typical of many Minis. He has quite a ewed neck (and this is his biggest fault that he has to overcome for driving) which ties in a bit low. His throatlatch is a bit on the thick side, his neck is not a great deal slimmer at the throatlatch than it is at his shoulder. All of this makes it a bit more difficult for him to get his head down where we want it to start and he will never be able to use it as well as a horse with better construction could. He has a dip both in front of the withers and behind which will make it a bit more difficult for him to use his back. He has a steep shoulder but the good thing is that he also has a steep croup to match which will help prevent stress injuries that would occur if the angles weren't matching. That steep croup will allow him to get his back end under himself a little easier but combined with his somewhat weak stifle and hock construction you are going to need to be careful not to overstress his joints. All that being said I do see good potential in this horse, he is just going to need more careful conditioning than some.

[SIZE=12pt]Please don’t worry about offending me by being honest about Banner. He means a lot to me, but I know you aren’t attacking him. [/SIZE]

I know to overcome his conformation I need to know about it, what you typed up is great. I really see what you mean. Looking at the first picture driving to the more current ones, it looks like whatever I’ve been doing has been making these flaws worse; bleh.

As far as his backend is there anything I should avoid with him? I figure as he uses his body better that will help him. I am careful when I condition, and he’s been in good condition now for a few months., of course he’s been carrying himself poorly so we’ve got a lot of careful rebuilding to do.

NEVER put any auxilliary piece of equipment on a horse without allowing him to check it out on his own loose in the round pen first. This includes blinders, breeching and any sort of extra rein. Some back haphazardly, some rear, buck or kick, some run madly. Turn him loose and let him get the kinks worked out with you out of the way. Once he is comfortable with it then you can go in and work with him and then take them to the cart with you. I really don't think your boy needs a fixed side rein, he bends too nicely on his own.
I do think he would benefit from sliding side reins as I can see from your loose contact in all your photos that you really are afraid of taking contact with this horse. He NEEDS that support from your hands which, until you are more educated with your hands, the sliding side reins will help provide but you do need to take up your contact even when using them. The reins should come straight from his mouth to your hands - not taut so that you could strum a tune on them but slightly elasticy and giving, they should kind of just wave up and down slightly over the length of them with his movement. You will need to be careful to follow his head down when he offers to do so keeping the same contact all the way through.

[SIZE=12pt]Thank you Lori, I didn’t mean to imply I was just going to throw any piece of new equipment on him and go, I do know better than that. Sorry about that. I will work on better and more educated contact as well.[/SIZE]

Even when adjusted fairly loose the sliding side reins will still gently massage the horse's mouth and have some effect (think of the western pleasure horse and how loose their reins are) but you do need to start with them more tightly adjusted. Once your horse is working well they will just be hanging there and not really having any affect. Mine are made of 1/4" nylon rope which is VERY light and they work just fine.

[SIZE=12pt]That’s what I was thinking, is that I probably need to snug them up. But I was just wondering if the weight of the weight effects anything.[/SIZE]

Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way.

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks Leia, that really helps. I can feel these things when I’m working with him. I just can’t pin-point it like you can. I do understand that both he and I have a lot of work to do. [/SIZE]

Lori in your post, #46, I just wanted to let you know I really appreciate both of your replies and it really helps to see it discussed different ways.

Also the same with Myrna’s post, # 48.

I sure am happy about how nice this post is going!

 

[susanne]

I think we should all take an oath promising not to get offended at honest, well-intended criticism. Too often I've seen great feedback met with resentment and those who wish to share their knowledge become cautious about speaking up. With that, we lose the value of such a forum.

Meaningless compliments are just that -- meaningless. Give me that honest response anyday. Even if it makes me gulp for a moment, better that I open my eyes than go on in a bubble of ignorance.

So, here's my vow:

I, susanne, hereby promise never to take offense at honest criticism and never to suggest that I expect unwarranted praise or compliments. I love all of my horses without reserve, even as I accept their need for improvement. I seek constant improvement from myself as well and realize that this cannot happen without the honesty of others.

And, as one with an oftimes ascerbic tongue, please know that I never intend to hurt anyone, and that my jibes are more often aimed at myself than at others.

Just as a warning, however, I cannot promise the same from Keith. In his eyes, his wife and his horses (not necessarily in that order) are infallible.

 

[RhineStone]

You all have said so much here, that I am REALLY far behind on reading it all. I just have responded where I happen to see my name! Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to catch all the good things you have said!

Myrna

 

[MiLo Minis]

[SIZE=12pt]Please don’t worry about offending me by being honest about Banner. He means a lot to me, but I know you aren’t attacking him. [/SIZE]
I know to overcome his conformation I need to know about it, what you typed up is great. I really see what you mean. Looking at the first picture driving to the more current ones, it looks like whatever I’ve been doing has been making these flaws worse; bleh.

As far as his backend is there anything I should avoid with him? I figure as he uses his body better that will help him. I am careful when I condition, and he’s been in good condition now for a few months., of course he’s been carrying himself poorly so we’ve got a lot of careful rebuilding to do.

]
Actually, yes

what you have been doing has been detrimental to him but that is water over the bridge. Starting now you can begin to rebuild and you have the advantage of working now with a horse that is no longer green, just needs correct work to get him moving better.

That is great that you work him slowly into condition because that is going to help him. He is not the kind of horse you can schlep around and then throw into a show. He needs careful, consistant training gradually building up in length of time and amount of work. If he is already in good condition this is where Rhinestone's hillwork will come in VERY handy. Begin on nice short low slopes and build up to actual hills - both up and down. This will not only help to muscle up his hind end which will give him the strength back there in his motor to help him carry himself but will also get him dropping his head and pushing, again using your hands to ask him to drop his nose along with the sliding side reins to give you some assistance. There is really nothing you should avoid with him just do everything slowly and gradually so you don't overstress anything. I would then work on lots of transitions in the arena both up and down to get him using his newly developed back end starting with easy ones like walk to trot and trot to walk, then halt to trot and trot to halt, finally back up 4 steps and walk or back up 4 steps and trot. Don't move to the next set of transitions till he can do the first set comfortably and well, keeping his jaw relaxed and his head down - could take weeks at each step. Don't do so many transitions in one workout that he starts to get frustrated and tense - always keep him relaxed.

[SIZE=12pt]Thank you Lori, I didn’t mean to imply I was just going to throw any piece of new equipment on him and go, I do know better than that. Sorry about that. I will work on better and more educated contact as well.[/SIZE]

When I answer I am half talking to you and half talking to everyone so when I said that it was not really for you but for anyone reading in that might thing they should just go ahead and try auxilliary reins on their hitched horse who has never seen them before which could be disastrous.

Even when adjusted fairly loose the sliding side reins will still gently massage the horse's mouth and have some effect (think of the western pleasure horse and how loose their reins are) but you do need to start with them more tightly adjusted. Once your horse is working well they will just be hanging there and not really having any affect. Mine are made of 1/4" nylon rope which is VERY light and they work just fine.

[SIZE=12pt]That’s what I was thinking, is that I probably need to snug them up. But I was just wondering if the weight of the weight effects anything.[/SIZE]

Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way.

Thanks Leia, that really helps. I can feel these things when I’m working with him. I just can’t pin-point it like you can. I do understand that both he and I have a lot of work to do.

You do have your work cut out for you because right at the moment the muscling on his upper neck is virtually non-existent partly because of his build and partly because of lack of use of them. Again, careful, consistant work to build him up gradually will prevent him from becoming sore and resentful. The hills will help with this as well as Leia's suggestion.

 

[angelspeeper]

WOW!!!! What an insightful discussion!!!

I'm new to driving. My horse has been with a trainer since November, but unfortunately finances dictate that he must come home.

If I could I would leave him with the trainer, but that's not the case. Now I feel more confident about continuing on at home...knowing there is such a great group ready to help me work out the inevitable kinks!

Thanks for such an interesting post. Even though I'm a "green" driver I learned a lot for use in the future. Keep these kinds of posts coming!!! What's even better was there wasn't a forest fire started by people flaming each other!

 

[RhineStone]

Leia, that video was VERY insightful. I think I figured out what is really going on here with a number of you all's horses. It's something I take for granted, because I seemed to have developed a good set all the way along. I don't know how. For years, both riding and driving judges have complemented me on my hands.

This is what I saw in the video. Susanne, I'm going to "pick on you", because you were the only one I saw "in motion" other than Leia

. The rest are photos. When you first ask Mingus to "walk on", your hands remain static in the location that you left them before you asked for the cue. When I ask my horses to walk on, I always "give" the reins just a little with my elbow, so that when the horse starts that vehicle, they can get their head down a bit to "break it loose". What Mingus gets instead is resistance in the mouth, and therefore he has learned to pull that cart without dropping his head. My guess is that he is a very forward horse, that you always feel that you have to hold him back. So, he has learned to go forward, but without relaxation, protecting his bars of his mouth from hard pressure.

A little about hand and arm position: in the "neutral position" your elbow should be just slightly in front of your waistband. I like to tell my students that I want to put a rubber band around their elbow and attach it to their waistband. Your elbow should be well bent. Susanne, I see your arms being a little straight. Your hands should be about the same width as they are on your keyboard (on a regular keyboard, not a little, bitty laptop) if holding one rein in each hand. Your hands should be slightly above your elbow (this is not the case for riding). The backs of your hands should be at the same angle as the horse's withers. I tell my students to look at the harness saddle, and try to match that. Your whip should be "within the frame of the vehicle". If you drew a rectangle all the way around the vehicle, the lash of the whip should not be outside that. I like to hold mine at a 45 in two ways, both horizontally and vertically. (Does that make sense?) Then the hand w/o the whip (usually left) should "mirror" the right. Now, that all being said, remember that is the neutral position. You may have to move your hands back and forth depending upon the action that you are asking your horse to do. God gave you elbows so you could drive horses!

(God gave you hips and knees so you could ride them!) Use the elbows God gave you like "shock absorbers" for your horse's mouth.

Here is another observation. At the end of the video, Mingus has relaxed and dropped his head. So has Susanne. Mingus is probably tired, and therefore Susanne doesn't feel like she has to "hold" him. This is a GREAT frame! There is no resistance from Susanne's hands, and Mingus is finally feeling calm, "Thank you. You let go of my face!!!"

Ok, so how do you deal with that? Since I have seemed to have an "innate" sense of how much rein since I was a 4-Her, I will explain the technique that Jeff Morse demonstrated at the Midwest Horse Fair last year. He has three rules for this exercise (if I am remembering correctly): the horse must go forward, he must look to the inside of the circle, and he can have as much rein as he wants. Jeff started out two basically recreational driving horses, one Standardbred and one Morab, on a 20 meter circle. The Morab seemed tense and stiff in the neck before the exercise, much like some of your horses. At the end, they were putting their heads down, bending properly, and ready to move into a trot calmly. They went round and round, but maintaining the above rules. (It was actually a little boring for me, but I can see where it would help a novice driver learn how much rein is necessary, and teach the horse to hold themselves up.)

Does this sound like anyone here?: "My horse wiggles when I harness him. He might wait a little while we put him to, but when I get in the cart, he is all go, and doesn't want to stand still. I constantly feel like I have to hold him back, even though he is not running away. Eventually, he gets tired, and then he is more fun to drive, or he is fun when we have a big open space and don't have to go slow."

Changing this behavior all starts with you being a "parent". Start when harnessing. He shouldn't be allowed to move a foot. If he does, you put him back. If he does it again, you put him back. Eventually, he WILL get tired of you pulling on him to put him back and he will decide that standing still causes him less pressure on his face than wiggling. When you put to, take your time. Absolutely no rush. Actually, drag it out. Maybe take him out to the cart, and not even put to! Take some of the anticipation out of the process. When you put to, stand there a while, 2-5 minutes. No rush. No wiggling. If he does, put him back. If he won't stand, go back to the last step.

When you finally do ask him to walk on, let your elbow out a little with the rein so that he can reach down with his neck and pull that cart out. As soon as he has broke that cart loose, take up the rein again. There are a number of visualizations that work for holding the reins. Sally Swift in Centered Riding said to hold the reins like baby birds. You don't want to loose your baby birds, but you don't want to squeeze them to death, and you don't want to knock their heads together. Another one for any of you actual parents is to hold the rein like holding a child's hand crossing the street. From the photos, I see some with "wet noodle" hands and fingers, barely holding the reins, and some with very resistant hands. I see the most head up behavior from those horses whose drivers seem to have resistant, unforgiving hands. (Granted, I am making this assumption from a PHOTO. I'd have to see you in person to tell if this is really the case.)

Has anyone milked a cow? This type of squeeze is also very useful for learning half-halts. Using a half halt to slow your horse instead of pulling resistance will soften your horse, too. Hardy Zantke talks about the mistake of holding the reins like holding a cat's tail, "I'm not pulling, the cat is!" Is your horse pulling like the cat? The horse can't pull on you if you half-halt instead of steady pull.

When you hold those reins, think of reaching out with your very long arms to grasp the corners of that horse's mouth. How would you want your mouth grasped? Just a little, like Grandma softly pinching your cheeks, or like the Hulk (dating myself

) ripping your cheek off?

In rereading all of this, it really only scratches the surface. If there is something that you don't understand, it's probably because I need to explain myself better, so please do ask questions. Again, if I am totally off base in my assumptions, please consider that, again, I can't see you in person.

My suggestion for most of you "do it yourselfers", is really work on your hands. Learn all you can about a half halt. Think, "I want to stop, but not really. I want to half stop." The contraptions that are being suggested here are really just taking the place of good hands. It's teaching the horse what to do by using a little bit of pressure, just like good hands.

Myrna

 

[Shari]

Mingus is sooo polite waiting for you to let him go, Susanne. Maggie will wait but she does get impatient and will shake her head to make me hurry up.

Kody is a sports car.. can see him begging you Leia to go faster..... zoommm...

Maggie has a low neck set, as per the way her neck is tied into her shoulders. But she has some wicked tall withers, that due to conformation, makes a dip in front of her withers. Something you would more likely see in a TB.

The under part of her neck is not built up at all. So this issue doesn't always mean they are ewe necked.

In winter coat

Need to take some photos that show her withers better.

 

[susanne]

Thank you, Myrna!

Your observations are quite accurate. At the time this video was shot. Mingus was raring to go, excited by his equine rivals and excited about having room to open up. I was most definitely guilty of getting caught off balance (esp. where I'm using the wooden seat training cart), even though I was the one giving the commands. He would move, I'd fall back... Not making excuses, as I don't feel that that excuse me.

I'm also terrible about wanting to lean forward at fast trot or canter...

Looking at various photos and videos, I am horribly inconsistent in my hand and arm position -- I could definitely use someone to rag on me while we work to keep me in line.

Mingus has a very soft mouth, and in ground-driving we had a fantastic communication between my hands and his mouth -- to the point where I could pretty much think about where I wanted him to go and he would go there. I feel that I've regained a lot of this while in the cart, but I still need to work and become consistent, and I really need to work on hand and arm position. I love your baby bird analogy -- and the keyboard position.

I so appreciate your observations, and I feel like I've just completed a lesson. I don't want to be the one holding Mingus back, and the comments I've received are an enormous help.

 

[jegray21]

Still trying to absorb all the info...The video was great! I am so jealous that you guys can drive on a beach!

This has been a great discussion.

From watching the video and reading the discussion about Mingus's neck....I just wanted to mention and I am sure most know so sorry if I am stating the obvious here..The wonderful think about the horses neck is that it is all mussel meaning with work and correct contact and thoroughness the horse's neck can completely change it's look.

I would say that Mingus looks like he has a strong under mussel and a week top-line. The dip in front of the whither will fill in when he has lifted his back and built up the the mussel there. A horse who is almost connected but not 100% will have a hallow spot in-front of the whither and a strong under mussel. You can not change the over all conformation of the horse or the location of the neck out of the chest but thick through the throat latch and hallow in front of the whither can definitely be worked on and completely corrected. I am just going to scream back to the basics with the strength of the top-line if you think your horse looks hallow or EWE necked( this is not counting the EXTREME condition of a ewe neck horse).

The horse will only carry himself up and to the bit if he is conditioned to do that. Focus on the correct response to the driving aid meaning when I ask my horse to walk on or trot on he responds by stretching into the bit and lifting the back and pushing forward and the correct response to the half halt meaning the horse sits behind and does not just give in the pole. Too many horses just compress the neck when half halted making the back hallow. When watching the horse in the long lines there should be a clear stomach mussel line and the under mussel in the neck loose. Then you know if your horse is working "Over the back" The picture of Kody in the sliding side reins shows a nice loose trot and good stretch over the back.

From there the half halts in combination with correct amount of contact and driving aid you can shift the weight to the hide end. The horse naturally will want to brace with the new added work load. It takes a long time to develop these mussels. My only argument about side reins or contraptions with a beginner is that it might help steady the connection to the horses mouth until they learn to keep their hands still Not while driving just long lines...I do not imagine side reins and hooked to a cart are a great idea.

Ok thats my two cents for tonight