Hopefully an interesting and informative post,

[BannerBrat]

I'm not a great fan of fixed side reins as I feel they lack the sensitivity and give of a rider's hands but I do feel it's important to show the horse what we want in small steps before asking them for it in the cart. I frequently lunge my horses without any equipment to let them blow off steam and will sometimes use a lunge cavesson by itself to encourage the horse to tip his nose to the inside instead of getting resistant through his jaw, but I don't expect the horse will magically learn to stretch that way. Something has to show him the way to the ground and without long-lines of some sort attached that must be an auxillary rein such as a side rein or sliding side rein. Kody spent a lot of time with his nose to the ground naturally as he lunged but his weight was still on his forehand and he wasn't moving correctly despite the flexure of his neck. The addition of sliding side reins helped him learn to work through his back and find his balance a bit higher up. I have some photos of that show it well but unfortunately can't find them online at the moment. This is the closest I've got at the moment:

Both Mingus and Banner show good natural engagement and a talent for stepping up under themselves but neither horse (as pictured on this thread, not judging their current progress which of course we can't see

) is getting off his forehand or using his neck. Jegrays' horses are doing so beautifully although as she comments they are a little tense through the neck and jaw as to be expected of 2 and 3 year olds just being introduced to such work. I would personally prefer to use sliding side reins at that stage so the horse can move his head around and find out for himself where his most comfortable posture is and how to balance but side reins definitely have their place. I would not hesitate to use one side rein at a time on the inside of the circle to help a young horse understand (in combination with a strong driving aid from the handler) how to give to the bit and begin bending. After that however I prefer the sliding side reins in combination with a lunging cavesson to show the horse how to use his whole body. That lovely vertical head position should come naturally as a result of the horse moving from back to front...to force them into that posture without the correct foundation often leads to foreshortening of the neck and lots of tension from jaw to lower back which defeats the purpose.

Mingus is quite capable of lovely correct round movement, I've seen him do it and I think he was just excited at the beach. All he needed was a firm work session with frequent soft transitions and a lot of bending and I think he would have come right back down and focused. Banner sounds a lot like both Mingus and Kody as far as his temperment and that type of horse does take a delicate hand and lots of creativity and patience to bring to full flower. It's worth it though! I agree that he could benefit from limited use of sliding side reins just long enough to show him how to use his topline. He's a thinking horse just like our other boys...he'll take it as a puzzle and soon figure it out without ever getting annoyed at his driver as he can see clearly that you're standing there in the middle of the circle not doing a thing.

He's come a long way in his driving and is developing a powerful (and handsome!) musculature but he has not yet figured out how to truly work through his topline.

[SIZE=12pt]He doesn't seem to get annoyed with me with the sliding side reins. He accepts them, begrudgingly. He honestly seems to hate that they follow his mouth. I know that sounds dumb, but he does use his body very nicely with the sliding side reins, using his body well through his topline, unlike the pictures I posted. I don't think he drops his rear end yet though. But anyway, every once and a while he seems to get fed up with it & resists quite strongly. To the point where he starts to rear, not out of fear of being restrained just a whole lot of

at having those side reins on. Maybe I ought to really push him to work through it... can't hurt to try I suppose. He certainly is a special horse, I found him this morning acting like a bronc in his 12'x12' stall because he was bored and I was a 1/2 hour late. I'm sure you would love him Leia! He's got plenty of antics... I ought to write a book about him.

[/SIZE]

I promise I'll post some photos of my horse for critique in a separate thread and pick him absolutely to pieces for you guys.

It'll also be fun over the next two years to see if I can "walk the walk" as my almost-two year old naturally trails his hindquarters at a trot and tends to lock into an upheaded position and stay there. I'm looking forward to working with him and posting pictures as he hopefully learns to seek the bit and engage through the topline. We'll see!

Leia

[SIZE=12pt] I'd love to see that Leia, I can't wait to watch you progress with your new boy. [/SIZE]

Sorry, was typing over time and missed the newest replies! Ashley, do you have any photos or video of exactly how Banner reacts when you use sliding side reins? Now I'm curious.

[SIZE=12pt]No, I don't as of yet. But I'll see if I can get some. I tried to describe it in your above post...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] Do you adjust the side reins for the different bend of the circle? And change them for when you reverse? I'm guessing you use two side reins, is that how you start them out? Or just with one? Banner is in really good condition, and I'm thinking now we can really start making progress with retraining the right muscles. [/SIZE]

Patty Cloke's videos have the horse started out with one loose siderein on the inside, then adding a second rein on the outside and slowly tightening them over time. Yes, the inside rein is always at least one hole tighter than the outside to keep the horse bending. You do have to switch or adjust the reins when you switch directions.

[SIZE=12pt]Thank you![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] Just a wondering, do you have any problems with the bit being pulled through his mouth lunging like that? I haven't lunged that way because I worry that if whoever I was working was to spook they would pull the bit through their mouth and worsen the problem. [/SIZE]

That's what the little "spoons" on a half-cheek bit are for.

A full-cheek bit is also a good choice for such work as it not only can't be pulled through the mouth but applies gentle pressure to the outside that helps the horse understand what you're asking for.

Leia

[SIZE=12pt] I know that half cheeks are still pretty easy to pull through if you get a certain angle on them, a full cheek though would probably solve that. What are the advantages to lunging from the bit?[/SIZE]

You would want to adjust them based on the goal you are trying to achieve with the side reigns. If the horse is stiff to one side and he tends to face out then lengthen the outside side reign and shorten A LITTLE the inside..
In ace's case the side reigns are elastic and give him the give he needs..they are not there to HOLD the head down..just to be clear...I agree that they do not give as much as the reigns but will still argue that in the beginning a steady contact is helpful as long as they are not too short.

In the moment of the pic he is leaning on the bit and yes it is pulled through his mouth most of the time it sits right.

the half halt is a moment of POSITIVE tension the tells the horse yes go forward but up ward...I hold a fist and release...timing is everything in a half halt if you hold to long it will tighten the horse in mouth and neck..if it is not long enough the horse will consider it meaningless pulling on his bit. the other important point would be to be sure to keep the horse going forward through the half halt so they do not get short behind. That's how I was taught and so far it has worked.

not sure its the pic of my grey mare that I think showed up not sure...sorry for confusion on images...that shows how I transition them from just side reigns to steady reign contact...when she is solid in the contact of the reigns the side reins go away and she is steady and through pretty much all the time during her work...

[SIZE=12pt]Thank you jegray21, I get what you're saying. I may try that with my boy now that I know a bit more about it. [/SIZE]

 

[BannerBrat]

[SIZE=12pt] Here's an interesting article on sliding side reins... http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/la...enna_reins.html[/SIZE]

Not saying its right, but I do find it interesting.

There are a few things I don't agree with throughout her site though.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I don't care a great deal for standing side reins even if they are elastic (I don't know about you but I can't even stretch that elastic without using a good deal of strength) mostly because they are a pain in the butt as I can't just change the rein without stopping to readjust them, but I do use them occasionally for short periods of time to help a horse learn what I am asking for if he is having difficulty with learning the sliding side reins. I use them with the inside rein shortened and the horse loose in the round pen. I am not a big fan of lunging for any reason except to start in the long lines and then I usually switch over to a following rein rather quickly. I feel we throw the horses balance off when lunging and teach him what we don't really want to teach.

Bannerbrat's horse shows a good natural bend but loses it somewhat in these pictures of him driving. His conformation makes it difficult for him to use his neck and back properly and I really feel he could benefit greatly from use of the sliding side reins to teach him what will make his life easier. I would start with them on fairly tight and very low and him loose in the round pen - let him work it out without any danger to you. Once he is travelling well loose and has figured out that we are asking him to drop his nose (this horse might even benefit from use of a chambon to start) and round his back then I would progress to work with the sliding side reins while hitched. It may also help you to learn what you need to do with your hands to ask for it. I would like to see you taking more contact than you are here and asking him to move up into the bit more. It would also help him if you were to focus your eyes on where you want him to move to along with a bit more contact and more drive eg. on a circle look to your next quarter and it will improve his bend, on the straightaway looking forward between his ears will help him keep straight. I do feel that at the point in time these photos were taken I would not have been working on bend but rather on getting the horse straight first, after which bend would follow.

I absolutely love the look of your Mingus! He appears to be quite the powerhouse and once you harness that energy and get him working off his haunches he is going to be pure joy to drive! Again I think he would benefit from the use of sliding side reins to teach him what your hands should be asking him for. He doesn't have the natural bend that Bannerbrat's horse does, at least not in these photos, but he sure shows potential. Again his conformation makes it a bit more difficult for him to use his neck properly but less so than Banner.

It is important that when you do start to use contact you remember to make it a following contact and not just set your hands and force your horse into the bit which would make him stiff and not accepting of the contact. He will at first get heavy in your hands but as his strength builds he will be more able to carry himself. Stick to nice soft curves and no deep corners until he has the strength and balance to carry himself through them without falling to the inside - give him lots of support with that outside rein and pulse gently on the inside to ask him to bend, or at least get straight to start, around the curves.

Both nice looking driving horses.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

[SIZE=12pt] I know that half cheeks are still pretty easy to pull through if you get a certain angle on them, a full cheek though would probably solve that. What are the advantages to lunging from the bit?[/SIZE]

I know some people do it but I can't think of one. The closest I would come is running the lunge line from the outside of the bit up over the headstall and through the bit on the other side if I didn't have a lunge cavesson and my horse was tipping his head strongly to the outside. Frankly I usually lunge only to let an exuberant horse blow some steam before working or to condition the horse when there's not enough time to drive; if I really want to accomplish bending and engagement and softness I will long-line.

I do see benefit from letting the horse lunge over cavaletti though and prefer to have loose sliding side reins on for that so he neither hollows out nor yanks himself in the mouth should he stumble as he would with fixed side reins.

I found some interesting links and quotes on the subject of side reins after doing some googling. These are only posted for interest, not to argue with anyone. We all have our own ways of doing things and I know some of the classical dressage gurus go every bit as overboard as the gadget-loving folks. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle and is different for each horse.

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html

"Those old masters did not - and neither do those classical trainers who still make use auxiliary reins today - decide to use them without giving the matter a great deal of thought. They were - and are - not seen as a vade mecum and to be used on each and every horse. They were/are not given to inexperienced riders to experiment with, they were/are not used on well-schooled horses. They were/are an aid to help a horse understand how the stretch of the neck and the lift of the back are good things. They were/are a means to an end not and end in themselves."

http://dressage.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/t...he-young-horse/

"Why a Cavesson?

Many people choose to attach the lunge line directly to the bit rings. Either by clipped to the outside ring, threading over the poll and then through the inside bit ring before feeding to the hand; or by clipping to the outside ring, threading behind the chin and then through the inside bit ring.

There are a number of problems with attaching a lunge line directly to the bit. Firstly, you will create nut cracker action on the horses tongue which will be particularly painful. There is a discussion later about the action of the hands on the horses mouth and how detrimental backwards hands – which press on the tongue – can be.

The long term preservation of the delicate mouth is vital for the schooling of the young horse!

Horses can be unpredictable on the lunge; displaying playfulness. Such headshaking or bouncing around can cause the rider to jab at the horses mouth, even accidently.

Aside from the physical damage that both these problems can cause to the mouth; there is the psychological damage. For a horse to work correctly under saddle, he or she has to be able to trust the rider’s hands. If, from a young age and in the earliest education, the horse is taught that the bit causes pain; the prospect for good work under saddle isn’t good.

Some people choose to lunge from a headcollar or halter, believing that they are being kind to their horse. The problem here is that the handler has very little control at all over the horse. So, when working your horse from the ground, it is preferable to exert pressure onto the nose than to the mouth. This should ensure the handler some degree of control without the risk of damaging the oh so precious mouth."

I think this guy is a little overboard, but do agree with his point about what happens if the horse plays up.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php#siderein

"Sidereins are as inanimate a gadget as anything else, and does not improve the stretching forward-down-out but rather teaches the horse to keep the shape of the neck and jowl and drop from the withers. This is NO STRETCH! ...

To make a horse go "on the bit" in sidereins, you need to be expert in driving it forward just so on the lunge, you have to release him often to save him from cramps that cause resistances, and have the horse quite well schooled. So what's then the point, if you have a well-schooled horse and know how to drive correctly? If you can do that, you can longrein successfully, too! Or why not ride? ...

There's also the problem of the horse stumbling, losing balance, being frisky on the lunge line. And what happens? The fixed leather siderein will snatch the horse in the mouth as hard as he moves his head. This RUINS the mouth of the horse, and makes him utterly insensitive. The possible benefits you can have from sidereins are overshadowed by the fact that they harden the mouth in many intricate ways."

Ah, aren't discussions of horse training fascinating??

Leia

 

[susanne]

Leia and Lori, thanks for you comments!

Mingus is a bit butt-high, and I worry about my ability to help him overcome that and use his hindquarters properly. As you mentioned, Leia, he is certainly capable of rounding up nicely, but he seems to think he looks cool with his back hollowed out and his head in the air...

I'll be starting back in on longeing with the sliding side reins and then driving in larger areas than our corral cum arena (way too small), hoping it gets him to open up and really move.

As for longeing with a bit, I've gone with what I was told early on, and that's use both halter and bridle, with sliding side reins attached to the bit (snaffle position on the Butterfly bit) and longe line attached to the ring of the halter. A bit clunky, but it prevents pulling sideways on his mouth (I'd use the noseband, but our current bridle has a wide noseband.)

I really need a dressage trainer -- even more than Mingus does.

 

[MiLo Minis]

That has been what I have seen with the use of fixed side reins. Horses get stiff through the jaw and neck with excessive use of them. Yes his head might be in the right position but you don't get that free flow of energy and rounding through the back because there is tenseness there. If I am having trouble with a horse figuring out the sliding reins I will put them on, as I said, a bit overtight and more so on the inside to basically overflex his neck and turn him loose in the round pen for a short period of time - first on one side, then the other. I find then that when I go back to work with the sliding side reins they give to the soft massaging feel a lot quicker. I use them strictly as a teaching tool when needed. I do use a full cheek with them on to prevent the bit pulling through.

With Mingus I would work on gettting him to relax with plenty of large ovals and circles - NO CORNERS. Use the sliding side reins which will take the place of your hands doing what they should be doing. Even though I know how to tell a horse to bend and flex I still use the sliding side reins in training because it gets tiring with a horse that doesn't know what he needs to do. It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it. Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again. Don't ask for anything but his regular working trot. Watch for rhythmic movement. That will get him started on the right road.

 

[RhineStone]

I'm not a big contraption user, although I have never used sliding side reins. We used to use side reins, but I have found that the Three H's tend to work better for me, Hills & Half Halts. Hill work really gets them to use their butt and drop their head. Just as I have said before, they figure out that it is easier to use their rear ends to push the cart. The other nice thing about hill work, is that you don't have to have any special training to do it, and it is pretty hard to screw up if you are a novice at training horses (unless you try to drive along a side hill and roll your vehicle

).

Another technique that will get them to use their haunches and accept bit contact better is bending and turning in obstacle work. Set up some cones or filled milk jugs or whatever about 6-8 ft. apart, and start driving through them. Again, it is pretty hard to screw up, just make your bends wide at first. Don't ask for tight turns. It also helps to "stay on the same rein", meaning when you make turns, don't go right and then left and then right. Make all your turns one direction, first. Eventually, make your turns smaller when your horse seems to "get it".

With obstacle work, horses also seem to appreciate the opportunity to "see something different" other than going round and round on a longe line. You are asking for bending in the process, but it also gives YOU a "target". The process of bending will get them to place their inside hind foot underneath themselves (or they fall over), and when they feel secure in their balance, their heads naturally come down. Most horses don't WANT to go around with their heads in the air, they just haven't figured out how to put it down and not fall over! IMO, heads have to come down in the training process before they can come back up and in for the "show frame". In my experience, using a contraption to accomplish this is a "force" that the horse has to learn to deal with instead of figuring out on his own how to balance himself. This process may take a little longer, but then you don't have deal with the compounded problem of adding tension in the training process that has to be gotten rid of.

The other day, I had a lesson with a client and we were working on teaching him how to get the slow trot on the rail (the horse knows it, the driver doesn't). I think it is the hardest gait to do well. The challenge of pushing the horse into the bridle while "pulling them back" (not exactly the right word, but that isn't my point) is hard for the novice driver to understand. My gelding was kind of shlepping around the arena, somewhat hollow during the rail work. My client was getting moments of brilliance, but not consistency. Eventually, we started some cone work. Our arena isn't huge, 60' x 80', and our horse is 16HH with a four-wheel marathon vehicle. Needless to say, the cones aren't set very wide and the course can't go very fast right now (until the snow melts and we can work outside). The process of doing cone work set that gelding on his hind, while the driver was more concerned with just getting through the cones without annihilating one. The slow trot materialized with brilliance, and it was "easy" for the driver!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

With Mingus...It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it.

Mingus is actually built quite well to come on the bit, I think with him it's more a mental thing. He starts overthinking and focusing on everything around him and you can almost see the invisible overcheck snap in place as he stiffens and completely forgets about his body. His topline is nicely round and he gives lovely neck-telescoping gestures when asked in-hand; the biggest thing he needs is to be mentally brought back into his body and reminded gently how to use it...over and over and over.

He's a fun drive! Susanne has been kind enough to let me have him a few times now.

Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again.

After reading the end of this paragraph I think I know what you're talking about but as you've pointed out a lot of newer folk read these threads and if I'm confused I bet they are!

When you say "staying straight between the shafts," what do you mean? To me that paints a picture of a horse keeping his body completely straight and only bending from the neck or shoulder forward and that is not at all what we want. One reason it's so important to have plenty of room between the shafts is so that the horse can move his or her hip over in the process of bending the entire body from nose to tail going through a turn. As you state later, we want him to stretch the outside and travel with his whole body on the arch of the circle. We don't want him leaning like a motorcycle; the inside hind leg must step up under the horse to keep him balanced. A balanced horse is an agile horse, capable of quickly stopping, starting and changing directions without physical injury. Who wouldn't want that?

Leia

Edited to add: Nice post, Myrna! I agree with you 100% about the head having to come down before it can come back up.

 

[MiLo Minis]

With Mingus...It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it.

Mingus is actually built quite well to come on the bit, I think with him it's more a mental thing. He starts overthinking and focusing on everything around him and you can almost see the invisible overcheck snap in place as he stiffens and completely forgets about his body. His topline is nicely round and he gives lovely neck-telescoping gestures when asked in-hand; the biggest thing he needs is to be mentally brought back into his body and reminded gently how to use it...over and over and over.

He's a fun drive! Susanne has been kind enough to let me have him a few times now.

Well if you know him personally then you are a step ahead but I am going by the photos here and you can see it best in the third and 4th pictures - he has a slightly ewed neck, carries himself naturally heavy on his forehand and is slightly butt high. I would say that is NOT a horse that is "built quite well" to come on the bit - I have certainly met many that were quite a bit more naturally inclined and some that are far worse off than him. I also don't think that he appears tense but rather very excited and seems to enjoy what he is doing, has a bit of a competitive streak and likes to motor. I do think though that he has a tremendous amount of power and energy and can fairly easily be trained to carry himself much better than he is in these photos which will more effectively put his power and energy to good use. Of course I am going by the photos shown here as that is all I have to go on.

Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again.

After reading the end of this paragraph I think I know what you're talking about but as you've pointed out a lot of newer folk read these threads and if I'm confused I bet they are!

When you say "staying straight between the shafts," what do you mean? To me that paints a picture of a horse keeping his body completely straight and only bending from the neck or shoulder forward and that is not at all what we want. One reason it's so important to have plenty of room between the shafts is so that the horse can move his or her hip over in the process of bending the entire body from nose to tail going through a turn. As you state later, we want him to stretch the outside and travel with his whole body on the arch of the circle. We don't want him leaning like a motorcycle; the inside hind leg must step up under the horse to keep him balanced. A balanced horse is an agile horse, capable of quickly stopping, starting and changing directions without physical injury. Who wouldn't want that?

No I REALLY don't mean that we only want his head and neck bending.

What I mean is that I want to see him carrying himself with his weight evenly distributed over his 4 limbs as I said and not shoving one shoulder out to support himself as he pushes the shaft around a curve. But you have to get a horse straight before you can expect him to be able to bend and I was speaking specifically about Mingus as he appears in these photos. If you look you will see that he has his head crooked slightly to the right in all of these photos but the third one. I think he carries himself naturally crooked as do most horses and at the stage these photos were taken no one has been asking him to straighten his body from nose to tail. I would much prefer to see him bend and arc his entire body from nose to tail around the curves with his hind feet travelling the same path as his front feet rather than him throwing that leg out to support himself through the curves and moving crooked between the shafts with his shoulder against one shaft and his butt against the other as he would do now.]

 

[RhineStone]

One reason it's so important to have plenty of room between the shafts is so that the horse can move his or her hip over in the process of bending the entire body from nose to tail going through a turn. As you state later, we want him to stretch the outside and travel with his whole body on the arch of the circle. We don't want him leaning like a motorcycle; the inside hind leg must step up under the horse to keep him balanced. A balanced horse is an agile horse, capable of quickly stopping, starting and changing directions without physical injury. Who wouldn't want that?
Leia

This is HUGE! I have seen perfectly good driving horses go from "agitated" in shafts that are too narrow, to absolutely pleasant in shafts that are wide enough. So many people just measure the length of the shafts and don't realize that you need to measure the width, too. It's definitely not a good thing if you have to pull the shafts apart to put your horse in between them...

 

[RhineStone]

Susanne, I think we need better photos of Mingus

, everybody is seeing something different! Just Kidding!

I have to say that my husband happened to walk by the computer when I had your photos up, and he didn't think that Mingus was a mini! He was impressed!

I would say that he seems a little light in the hind, not conformationally balanced with his front, but that could be the photo, too. I might just be seeing the "extra flesh" from the chest and near leg moving forward. My assumption is that with more work, his back end would develop more.

He seems like he could be a really powerful mover! My gelding moved much like that early in his driving career (I have to take time to reformat photos and upload them so you can see). He is a different gelding now. It will be fun to see Mingus develop.

jegray21, your gray horse looks a lot like my mom's gray gelding at that age.

 

[Kendra]

I just spent an embarrassing amount of time tracking down a before picture of Hawk.

Here he is after about a dozen drives:

And the last time I drove him before surgery and winter got in the way, this past September:

Hawk has always wanted to go with his head up, nose out, and neck upside down and sucked in, and we're still working on truly carrying himself correctly. But I'm liking the progress I see in these photos! I would love to hear everyones thoughts!

 

[susanne]

Kendra, I love Hawk! He is elegant even in his winter woolies!

 

[susanne]

Regarding Mingus' conformation, I want to answer:

D. All of the above.

Does it make any sense to say that all of your observations are true, even those that may seem contradictory? Myrna is absolutely correct that we need better photos (and video) to best show the many contradictions that are Mingus.

Here's a older, less-muscled halter shot of him. He's ridiculously overstretched and his head looks clunky, but conformationally this looks most like the boy I know.

He starts overthinking and focusing on everything around him and you can almost see the invisible overcheck snap in place as he stiffens and completely forgets about his body.

This is spot on -- Mingus in a nutshell. Even free-longeing with our other horses, he is out there trotting like a Standardbred, wearing that invisible overcheck. (He's never worn ANY check to date)

he has a slightly ewed neck, carries himself naturally heavy on his forehand and is slightly butt high.stiffens and completely forgets about his body.

His neck is definitely not naturally hooky, and right on the verge of ewe-shaped. The underside of his neck is way overdeveloped (partly my fault from early years of encouraging a too high headset). He's a bit of a chameleon in this area -- I've seen him look both ewed and hooky (not at the same time...). He's definitely flexible and willing to give neck.

He does indeed carry himself heavy on the forehand and he is butt-high, but as Leia noted, he can get those hindquarters well underneath him, so my uneducated assumption is that, with the proper guidance, he can power from the back -- and therein lies the rub!

Mingus can trot like the Energizer bunny as he is, so I think he has less inclination to carry himself properly.

I also don't think that he appears tense but rather very excited and seems to enjoy what he is doing, has a bit of a competitive streak and likes to motor.

I'd say both: he's tense BECAUSE he is so excited and competitive and love to motor...He is a huge show-off, and he and Kody have an innate drive to show one another up.

I do think though that he has a tremendous amount of power and energy and can fairly easily be trained to carry himself much better than he is in these photos which will more effectively put his power and energy to good use.

I SO agree with this -- and one of my biggest concerns is that my horse is better than my ability to train him. I feel that I've trained a safe, sane and happy driving horse, but from there forward will be a challenge.

I would say that he seems a little light in the hind, not conformationally balanced with his front

Definitely -- in part because he is very deep through the heart and his hindquarters look even lighter in comparison. Nonetheless, we definitely need to work more on building that butt! We certainly have the hills (just wish I could fence in the road up to our ridge so they could do their hill work while I sit inside, lol. Hmm...and get Keith to work with Mingus on jumping...do I sound lazy or what?

I can't thank you all enough for your comments and suggestions! Leia has already been an incredible "coach from afar," and now I feel blessed to have a "stable" of knowledgeable people willing to lend their time, observations and advice. You've given me such great ideas on what to work on -- our work is cut out for us!

 

[susanne]

Our arena isn't huge, 60' x 80'

Now I feel a bit better about our workspace...it's 80x80 feet, although one corner is chopped off by a tree. I keep nagging Keith to clear more underbrush and trees so that we can extend back to nearly twice that length, but who knows when that will happen.

Lori, is 80x80 feet enough for the big, sweeping circles/ovals you have prescribed? I have to admit that I jumped the gun on sharp turns, as Mingus loves turning in place and making tight corners. Good for trail driving emergencies, not so great for proper carriage...now we need to go back and get it right.

 

[BannerBrat]

I don't care a great deal for standing side reins even if they are elastic (I don't know about you but I can't even stretch that elastic without using a good deal of strength) mostly because they are a pain in the butt as I can't just change the rein without stopping to readjust them, but I do use them occasionally for short periods of time to help a horse learn what I am asking for if he is having difficulty with learning the sliding side reins. I use them with the inside rein shortened and the horse loose in the round pen. I am not a big fan of lunging for any reason except to start in the long lines and then I usually switch over to a following rein rather quickly. I feel we throw the horses balance off when lunging and teach him what we don't really want to teach.[SIZE=12pt]Hi Lori, glad you've replied. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain.

[/SIZE]

That's one reason that I've avoided fixed side reins, is that their fixed and really even with elastic they don't move. But my Mom has used them with her horses, I think she likes them.

And I don't rule them out completely, I just haven't used them yet. When you lunge with sliding side reins do you keep them the same length? or switch them with the inside one a little tighter?

Bannerbrat's horse shows a good natural bend but loses it somewhat in these pictures of him driving. His conformation makes it difficult for him to use his neck and back properly and I really feel he could benefit greatly from use of the sliding side reins to teach him what will make his life easier. I would start with them on fairly tight and very low and him loose in the round pen - let him work it out without any danger to you. Once he is travelling well loose and has figured out that we are asking him to drop his nose (this horse might even benefit from use of a chambon to start) and round his back then I would progress to work with the sliding side reins while hitched. It may also help you to learn what you need to do with your hands to ask for it. I would like to see you taking more contact than you are here and asking him to move up into the bit more. It would also help him if you were to focus your eyes on where you want him to move to along with a bit more contact and more drive eg. on a circle look to your next quarter and it will improve his bend, on the straightaway looking forward between his ears will help him keep straight. I do feel that at the point in time these photos were taken I would not have been working on bend but rather on getting the horse straight first, after which bend would follow.

[SIZE=12pt]Could you explain more about what you see in Banner's conformation. I've always felt that he isn't built to work correctly, but I honestly can't pinpoint it. So if you have the time I'd love for you to explain more.

[/SIZE]

He does drop his head and work very nicely sometimes, but I have yet to get a picture of it. (of course

)

And thank you for all your other suggestions, these are all points that I am working on and keep in my head while driving. He actually moves quite straight when driving, and he seems to work best when we are actually doing something driving, like weaving through a dozen trees we have on the property and doing transitions through them. Stuff that makes him think there is actually a reason for all my madness.

But I do try to kind of vary it up to give both of us a break.

I absolutely love the look of your Mingus! He appears to be quite the powerhouse and once you harness that energy and get him working off his haunches he is going to be pure joy to drive! Again I think he would benefit from the use of sliding side reins to teach him what your hands should be asking him for. He doesn't have the natural bend that Bannerbrat's horse does, at least not in these photos, but he sure shows potential. Again his conformation makes it a bit more difficult for him to use his neck properly but less so than Banner.

It is important that when you do start to use contact you remember to make it a following contact and not just set your hands and force your horse into the bit which would make him stiff and not accepting of the contact. He will at first get heavy in your hands but as his strength builds he will be more able to carry himself. Stick to nice soft curves and no deep corners until he has the strength and balance to carry himself through them without falling to the inside - give him lots of support with that outside rein and pulse gently on the inside to ask him to bend, or at least get straight to start, around the curves.

Both nice looking driving horses.

[SIZE=12pt] I know that half cheeks are still pretty easy to pull through if you get a certain angle on them, a full cheek though would probably solve that. What are the advantages to lunging from the bit?[/SIZE]

I know some people do it but I can't think of one. The closest I would come is running the lunge line from the outside of the bit up over the headstall and through the bit on the other side if I didn't have a lunge cavesson and my horse was tipping his head strongly to the outside. Frankly I usually lunge only to let an exuberant horse blow some steam before working or to condition the horse when there's not enough time to drive; if I really want to accomplish bending and engagement and softness I will long-line.

I do see benefit from letting the horse lunge over cavaletti though and prefer to have loose sliding side reins on for that so he neither hollows out nor yanks himself in the mouth should he stumble as he would with fixed side reins.

I found some interesting links and quotes on the subject of side reins after doing some googling. These are only posted for interest, not to argue with anyone. We all have our own ways of doing things and I know some of the classical dressage gurus go every bit as overboard as the gadget-loving folks. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle and is different for each horse.

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html

"Those old masters did not - and neither do those classical trainers who still make use auxiliary reins today - decide to use them without giving the matter a great deal of thought. They were - and are - not seen as a vade mecum and to be used on each and every horse. They were/are not given to inexperienced riders to experiment with, they were/are not used on well-schooled horses. They were/are an aid to help a horse understand how the stretch of the neck and the lift of the back are good things. They were/are a means to an end not and end in themselves."

http://dressage.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/t...he-young-horse/

"Why a Cavesson?

Many people choose to attach the lunge line directly to the bit rings. Either by clipped to the outside ring, threading over the poll and then through the inside bit ring before feeding to the hand; or by clipping to the outside ring, threading behind the chin and then through the inside bit ring.

There are a number of problems with attaching a lunge line directly to the bit. Firstly, you will create nut cracker action on the horses tongue which will be particularly painful. There is a discussion later about the action of the hands on the horses mouth and how detrimental backwards hands – which press on the tongue – can be.

The long term preservation of the delicate mouth is vital for the schooling of the young horse!

Horses can be unpredictable on the lunge; displaying playfulness. Such headshaking or bouncing around can cause the rider to jab at the horses mouth, even accidently.

Aside from the physical damage that both these problems can cause to the mouth; there is the psychological damage. For a horse to work correctly under saddle, he or she has to be able to trust the rider’s hands. If, from a young age and in the earliest education, the horse is taught that the bit causes pain; the prospect for good work under saddle isn’t good.

Some people choose to lunge from a headcollar or halter, believing that they are being kind to their horse. The problem here is that the handler has very little control at all over the horse. So, when working your horse from the ground, it is preferable to exert pressure onto the nose than to the mouth. This should ensure the handler some degree of control without the risk of damaging the oh so precious mouth."

I think this guy is a little overboard, but do agree with his point about what happens if the horse plays up.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php#siderein

"Sidereins are as inanimate a gadget as anything else, and does not improve the stretching forward-down-out but rather teaches the horse to keep the shape of the neck and jowl and drop from the withers. This is NO STRETCH! ...

To make a horse go "on the bit" in sidereins, you need to be expert in driving it forward just so on the lunge, you have to release him often to save him from cramps that cause resistances, and have the horse quite well schooled. So what's then the point, if you have a well-schooled horse and know how to drive correctly? If you can do that, you can longrein successfully, too! Or why not ride? ...

There's also the problem of the horse stumbling, losing balance, being frisky on the lunge line. And what happens? The fixed leather siderein will snatch the horse in the mouth as hard as he moves his head. This RUINS the mouth of the horse, and makes him utterly insensitive. The possible benefits you can have from sidereins are overshadowed by the fact that they harden the mouth in many intricate ways."

Ah, aren't discussions of horse training fascinating??

Leia

[SIZE=12pt]Very interesting Leia!

[/SIZE]

That has been what I have seen with the use of fixed side reins. Horses get stiff through the jaw and neck with excessive use of them. Yes his head might be in the right position but you don't get that free flow of energy and rounding through the back because there is tenseness there. If I am having trouble with a horse figuring out the sliding reins I will put them on, as I said, a bit overtight and more so on the inside to basically overflex his neck and turn him loose in the round pen for a short period of time - first on one side, then the other. I find then that when I go back to work with the sliding side reins they give to the soft massaging feel a lot quicker. I use them strictly as a teaching tool when needed. I do use a full cheek with them on to prevent the bit pulling through.[SIZE=12pt]I'm thinking maybe this would help my boy... I'm sure doing this would create quite a reaction.

[/SIZE]

With Mingus I would work on gettting him to relax with plenty of large ovals and circles - NO CORNERS. Use the sliding side reins which will take the place of your hands doing what they should be doing. Even though I know how to tell a horse to bend and flex I still use the sliding side reins in training because it gets tiring with a horse that doesn't know what he needs to do. It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it. Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again. Don't ask for anything but his regular working trot. Watch for rhythmic movement. That will get him started on the right road.

I'm not a big contraption user, although I have never used sliding side reins. We used to use side reins, but I have found that the Three H's tend to work better for me, Hills & Half Halts. Hill work really gets them to use their butt and drop their head. Just as I have said before, they figure out that it is easier to use their rear ends to push the cart. The other nice thing about hill work, is that you don't have to have any special training to do it, and it is pretty hard to screw up if you are a novice at training horses (unless you try to drive along a side hill and roll your vehicle

).
Another technique that will get them to use their haunches and accept bit contact better is bending and turning in obstacle work. Set up some cones or filled milk jugs or whatever about 6-8 ft. apart, and start driving through them. Again, it is pretty hard to screw up, just make your bends wide at first. Don't ask for tight turns. It also helps to "stay on the same rein", meaning when you make turns, don't go right and then left and then right. Make all your turns one direction, first. Eventually, make your turns smaller when your horse seems to "get it".

With obstacle work, horses also seem to appreciate the opportunity to "see something different" other than going round and round on a longe line. You are asking for bending in the process, but it also gives YOU a "target". The process of bending will get them to place their inside hind foot underneath themselves (or they fall over), and when they feel secure in their balance, their heads naturally come down. Most horses don't WANT to go around with their heads in the air, they just haven't figured out how to put it down and not fall over! IMO, heads have to come down in the training process before they can come back up and in for the "show frame". In my experience, using a contraption to accomplish this is a "force" that the horse has to learn to deal with instead of figuring out on his own how to balance himself. This process may take a little longer, but then you don't have deal with the compounded problem of adding tension in the training process that has to be gotten rid of.

The other day, I had a lesson with a client and we were working on teaching him how to get the slow trot on the rail (the horse knows it, the driver doesn't). I think it is the hardest gait to do well. The challenge of pushing the horse into the bridle while "pulling them back" (not exactly the right word, but that isn't my point) is hard for the novice driver to understand. My gelding was kind of shlepping around the arena, somewhat hollow during the rail work. My client was getting moments of brilliance, but not consistency. Eventually, we started some cone work. Our arena isn't huge, 60' x 80', and our horse is 16HH with a four-wheel marathon vehicle. Needless to say, the cones aren't set very wide and the course can't go very fast right now (until the snow melts and we can work outside). The process of doing cone work set that gelding on his hind, while the driver was more concerned with just getting through the cones without annihilating one. The slow trot materialized with brilliance, and it was "easy" for the driver!

[SIZE=12pt]Ah Myrna! I've experienced everything that you are saying and have used these different things to vary things up. It sure is nice to see it works for someone else, because I've found that this variation has helped turn around a work session in addition to feeling that the horse and driver is working better. [/SIZE]

I just spent an embarrassing amount of time tracking down a before picture of Hawk.
Here he is after about a dozen drives:

And the last time I drove him before surgery and winter got in the way, this past September:

Hawk has always wanted to go with his head up, nose out, and neck upside down and sucked in, and we're still working on truly carrying himself correctly. But I'm liking the progress I see in these photos! I would love to hear everyones thoughts!

[SIZE=12pt]It's kind of hard to see in the after picture you posted, because of the gorgeous ribbons!

But he looks to have made considerable progress, how long ago was the first picture taken? I think he moves very nicely! And is looking really good. I really like him.

[/SIZE]

Here's a thought, for those that use sliding sidereins. The ones I have made are extremely lightweight. I like the look of the ones Leia has shown because they are still in effect even if they were looser then needed. With the ones I have they have to be quite snug or he can't feel it. Just wondering if 1. this makes any sense; and 2. if anyone thinks that could be one of the things not clicking right now.

 

[Kendra]

It's kind of hard to see in the after picture you posted, because of the gorgeous ribbons!

But he looks to have made considerable progress, how long ago was the first picture taken? I think he moves very nicely! And is looking really good. I really like him.

Doing the math ... The first picture was taken not quite 3 years ago.

 

[drivin*me*buggy]

I will jump in with my Buck first. He is almost 4 yrs old. He is 33.75" tall. I got him as a 9 month old, we started ground driving at 18 months. Last April he turned three and my goal for the summer was to get him hitched and add a chapter to this driving journey, no hard work- just starting to build some muscle. We are always working on moving the saddle back- lol- as he is a bit round.

Here he is the first time hitched and with me in the cart:

Here he is a few weeks later:

And from this fall- after working all summer:

and the pix from our most recent drive early winter, going slightly downhill:

Although he is still heavy on the forehand, I can start to ever so slightly shift that weight back. I am wanting to start doing more lungeing, ground driving and inhand work in the round pen while we wait for spring and good footing.

Next I have Wish. She is 5 1/2 yrs old and 34". I have only had her about 8 months. She is a very nice mover that I hope to capture in harness as we go forward.

Here she is first hitched:

After some more time in harness:

And one of our last drives before the weather got muddy/icy, she was getting better after every drive. Stretching better here...We still have a way to go, but that is part of the journey.

I really look forward to trying a lot of the suggestions here w/ both my horses

Angie

 

[MiLo Minis]

Here's a older, less-muscled halter shot of him. He's ridiculously overstretched and his head looks clunky, but conformationally this looks most like the boy I know.

His neck is definitely not naturally hooky, and right on the verge of ewe-shaped. The underside of his neck is way overdeveloped (partly my fault from early years of encouraging a too high headset). He's a bit of a chameleon in this area -- I've seen him look both ewed and hooky (not at the same time...). He's definitely flexible and willing to give neck.

He does indeed carry himself heavy on the forehand and he is butt-high, but as Leia noted, he can get those hindquarters well underneath him, so my uneducated assumption is that, with the proper guidance, he can power from the back -- and therein lies the rub!

Mingus can trot like the Energizer bunny as he is, so I think he has less inclination to carry himself properly.

You can see the slight ewe in his neck quite well in this photo although he IS obviously overreaching with his neck

but you can also see the lovely slim throatlatch that he has and how nice and high his neck ties in. He does have a wonderful heartgirth which provides plenty of room for lungs and the work he has been getting has obviously been good for his back end which is more muscular now than it was in this photo. You could see how well he gets his hind end under himself in the earlier photos and that is what makes me say he is a real powerhouse because he is getting all that reach even though he isn't making his job as easy as it could be - imagine what he is going to be like!!!

For showing at halter I would suggest not taking his head up quite so high, emphasizing the ewe.

Correct driving is going to be very good for this boy as it will improve the look of his neck. It may well be that he is not truly ewe necked but rather has just overdeveloped the muscle there from incorrect carriage as there really doesn't appear to be a dip in the top of his neck in this photo.

For driving I would make good use of a set of sliding side reins as you have admitted you don't really know what you need to do with your hands BUT you do need to take a little more contact even with the auxilliary reins in place. I would put them on fairly tight and low to begin with and if he has never worn them try them on him loose in the round pen first. If he plain and simple does NOT listen to the sliding side reins I would put a chambon on and turn him lose till he learns that he can move forward with his head down on his own. Once he is moving forward in the chambon on his own I would take a lunge whip and ask him to move out freely which will of course make him want to lift his head again and may cause him to fight the chambon so be careful but he will settle into it as he already knows that he can move forward with his head down. Work him for a short period of time in both directions and then harness him with the sliding side reins (which by the way I ALWAYS allow time free in the round pen with them for the horse to accustom himself to them FIRST) and see if he gets it.

I prefer to stay away as much as I can from gadgets when training a horse too but here are times when they can really help progress a horse along that is just not getting it and you really can't do a great deal of hill work with a horse in harness that has not had a lot of time in harness. You can work them on hills in the long lines but then as soon as you put them in the shafts they will revert with the added weight. I don't like stiff "gadgets" that FORCE a horse to put his head where we want it and holds it there by force but prefer to use things like a chambon or sliding side rein that allows the horse to find a comfort zone on his own.

Yes an 80 x 80 foot area is certainly large enough even for a B Mini to work in without making any corners.

 

[jleonard]

Just spent a hour typing up a response, only to have the site log me out when I went to post, grrr, so lets try again...

I broke Suzy as a 3 year old, she's now eleven. We've learned togeather and did not work on fine tuning until about three years ago, but other commitments have kept me from getting as far as I'd like with her. We are working on her stretching down as she likes to go around with her head in the air. She drove in a halter for years because she hated bits, but I finally tried a butterfly french link which she loves. She is still learning to accept contact and trust the bit. Like Myrna said earlier, I am working now on just getting her head to come down, and once she is comfortable with her head lower, I will worry about bringing her up off the forehand and into a more advanced frame.

Conformation shots

2006?

2009

National Drive 2008

Trying out the Hyperbike for the first time in Fall 2008

Early spring 2009 with a friend driving her for the first time

National Drive 2009 - she'd been having ulcer issues and was thin, especially over her topline. Since then she lost more weight and I'm still trying to get her to gain. It will be a long time until she has enough muscle to ask her to do much of anything

Then there is Locita. I broke her in 2003, but never had much time. I'd get her to the point of hitching once or twice a year, then get busy. This is the first year that I have had time to consistently work with her, and I have been very pleasently surprised. She is a totally different horse when she is fit from what she used to be.

Conformation (she is my little quarter horse

)

Longlining in 2003 (she was a nose dragger/ grass grabber, hence the overcheck)

Early spring 2009, one of her first times out on the road

Early summer 2009

No individual photos of her at the National Drive last year, but here they are as the tandem. I think you can see how much she's relaxed in the cart.

Big trot!

Thanks to Larry Porter for all of the National Drive pics!!