Just a little humor............ :lol: But if this thread touches one person then it has been worth it.Wow, 10 pages. Have any colts been gelded over this yet?:
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Just a little humor............ :lol: But if this thread touches one person then it has been worth it.Wow, 10 pages. Have any colts been gelded over this yet?:
Sorry, George...
Those minis being bred today MAY be a "hot fad" BUT (and this is assuming you are referring to the refined Shetland look) they do not just "blow over with a whisper" and are NOT "bred just for conformation."
No, the thought of the refined Shetland look did not cross my mind when I was typing my post. Also, my comment earlier was my opinion and once I thought about my comment I realized that there are people who do prefer the refined look. I've actually seen photo's of many refined horses that i think are stop in your tracks beautiful. I am sorry I made that comment since i am aware that I too may someday appreciate them as much as their breeders and owners do.
Have you been to Nationals in the past five years, George? Have you SEEN these Shetland minis in the driving ring? In my opinion the driving class quality of motion has improved in LEAPS AND BOUNDS... the minis are not just bred for size any more, they DO have refined conformation (are now free of the short thick leg and giant head for the most part) and they can MOVE.
I have never been to Nationals in the past 47 years let alone the past five years. The only movement I've seen from mini's is at the local shows or on youtube.
THe conformation being bred for, also is paired with more elegant movement. I remember when I first got into minis, it was more rare to find a mini that could pick up it's hocks and was anything more than a "dink dink" mover where now even the average horse can actually extend it's trot and hold it's head up naturally.
I prefer a horse that extends its trot and holds its head up
Breeders ARE breeding to improve the breed for the most part, whether or not it's the current "fad." As far as I have seen, the miniature breed is moving in the right direction, from concern about size to concern about conformation to concern about type and movement. That looks like a good thing to me!
Maybe in twenty years I will be repeating your words in regards to the improvements made.
The only thing I can do at this point is state my opinions. I can't speak for anyone else and I don't speak for anyone else. It is all about learning to me at this point. I may not always like what I read but I do think about what I read and try to see where the poster is coming from. Sometimes I understand from the start what they're trying to say and other times I am baffled and have to see it spelled out differently.
Andrea
Part of the issue here though is this question: "the best" by whose standards? There are those here that are convinced they have the best, far superior to anyone else's horses. I can say without a doubt that somewhere there is someone who would disagree that those people have the best--they would say that they don't like those horses at all, for whatever reason. Some believe that Nationals quality is the only quality worth having, yet the one day when I was talking to someone on the phone I was about to comment on a horse that was on the cover of a past issue of a magazine, & say isn't he lovely, only she beat me to it--by saying 'did you see that horse on the magazine? I don't like that at all!" I'd have said that the horse in question was one that many would aspire to having, but obviously not everyone does. She is raising a different type of horse and can't see anything wrong with it.Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best.
Part of the issue here though is this question: "the best" by whose standards? There are those here that are convinced they have the best, far superior to anyone else's horses. I can say without a doubt that somewhere there is someone who would disagree that those people have the best--they would say that they don't like those horses at all, for whatever reason. Some believe that Nationals quality is the only quality worth having, yet the one day when I was talking to someone on the phone I was about to comment on a horse that was on the cover of a past issue of a magazine, & say isn't he lovely, only she beat me to it--by saying 'did you see that horse on the magazine? I don't like that at all!" I'd have said that the horse in question was one that many would aspire to having, but obviously not everyone does. She is raising a different type of horse and can't see anything wrong with it.Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best.
This same person visited a farm recently & commented that there was only one horse there that was any good. I'm in the process of writing a letter to her, and questioned her on two other horses that the farm did own, asking if those two horses were still there and pointing out that in my view those two horses were the only two from that farm that were worth having. Obviously we are in total disagreement over what is worth having--the two I mentioned are the better horses conformation wise & movement wise, but I would never convince her of that! :bgrin
Many feel the Shetland type is the way to go & personally I don't argue with that, I feel the Shetlands have much to offer the Mini breed--nothing to do with fads, just conformation & movement wise, Minis are lacking in some respects & the Shetlands can add a lot in those areas. Some, though, absolutely refuse to have a Shetland on the place, no matter how much Shetland there is already in Miniatures. Some want taller, some want smaller, some want longer necks, some don't want longer necks because they feel they are too long & snakey. The person that wants to raise horses for CDE may want a horse with a little more substance and bigger gaits, and the horse may not have the exact conformation that is winning in the show ring. Theoretically, if you are raising the most talented, athletic horses in the country, is it really wrong if they don't have quite the tabletop croup of a Nationals halter contender? That they couldn't go to Nationals & bring home a championship? Such a breeder might argue that if a National Champion can't go out & win a CDE, they shouldn't be breeding.
Inspections and 100 days tests are the best way to weed out horses that are sub-standard, but those inspections should include tests of the horse's performance ability as well--horses that can't move or perform shouldn't get accepted no matter how gorgeous they look when posed on the line, and the good movers and athletic performers must of course have good sound conformation--though that good sound conformation may not always be exactly what some think of as "nationals quality".
And inspections would not stop indiscriminate breeding, it would just put restrictions on which animals could be registered. The unregistered pet breeders would still be flourishing. After all, the Hanoverian (and other warmblood breed) inspections haven't stopped people from crossing their TB's on their draft horses. Locally there's a pretty good market for these crosses, just because many people around here cannot afford to go & buy a registered Oldenberg or Dutch Warmblood.
The focus needs to be on more geldings in the breed, not in pointing fingers and deciding whose stallion should or should not be breeding. There are all sorts of breeders that need to geld more horses, and when I say that I'm talking about gelding the foals they raise, not making any comment on their actual herdsire(s). And the need to geld more foals applies to all sorts of breeders--big name ones, small time ones, breeders of high quality animals, breeders of lesser quality animals--keep your herdsires, but geld their offspring. More geldings = fewer stallions; fewer stallions should = higher prices on stallions, and higher stallion prices will surely push up the demand for geldings. Higher demand = higher prices.
I know a big horse breeder that used to breed only her own mares with her stallion. She had a good horse, and his foals were in demand. She had many requests to breed outside mares and could have collected a lot of money in stud fees. She would not do it. Her philosophy was, if you wanted a foal by her stallion you had to come to her to buy one, you couldn't breed your own. And, when it came to sales, if she sold a colt as a stallion prospect, that colt had to be a darned good one. Also, she would not sell an intact colt locally--she might let one go across the country, but she would not sell one locally. Why not? Because if she sold one locally that could affect her local market. It's a strategy that could benefit Mini breeders. A lot.
You're right Liz, people--breeders--should never skimp on good, sound conformation, even if the size/type/conformation isn't what is currently "Nationals quality". Sadly, sometimes it isn't really the fault of the breeder if they are breeding a minimal dwarf and don't even know it.
Certainly anyone just getting into the breed--or just getting into horses--should learn all they can about conformation and how conformation affects health and soundness before they jump into breeding. But sometimes those new people put their faith in the wrong person--they go to a breeder that they figure is a big name, reputable breeder, and they ask all the right questions, but get all the wrong answers. The breeder convinces them that the minimal dwarf he/she has for sale is a worthy breeding animal--look at the fancy pedigree, the small size, the pretty color, all the trophies and titles the sire has won, the high price tag--buy this horse and you'll be in business, you won't go wrong because you can show this horse and learn with him & then you can breed with him later. The buyer goes away with an overpriced little horse thinking they really have something.
It can be a bitter pill to swallow when that buyer finally realizes how badly he/she got took. They believed the word of someone that sounded knowledgeable and acted oh so helpful and they paid a high price (you get what you pay for, right? How many times have we heard that on here?? Low price must mean there is something wrong with the horse, some have said they won't even look at a low priced horse. Relatively then, a high price must guarantee quality?) and then they start noticing that their little horse doesn't look the same as the other little horses they see at the shows winning the ribbons.
I don't think a lot of people are actually "ignoring" bad conformation. I think a lot of them just don't know any better. They do not understand form to function, and how conformation flaws can lead to unsoundnesses. I'm not sure that not knowing is any better than ignoring, but at least it is something that some gentle education might help.
THANK YOU :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: YOU are the solution. A breeder who gelds. Slinging mud at other peoples stallions isnt the answer (and its just not very nice) It's the breeders who will make a difference. Breeders need to stop labeling every colt as "herd sire" material and geld. Well done :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:In a nutshell the only person i can truly control is myself and what I do. So I geld ruthlessly and I constantly promote what great horses geldings are to every person that comes to my farm. I always encourage anyone new to horses to buy a gelding first even if I dont have one for sale. I have only been breeding for 6 years but I have never sold an intact stallion with my farm name. To me its a quest. When I do breed one great enough to stay a stallion he will probably stay hereSome of our recent geldings
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