Gay marriage - taking a step away from progress

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thank you jill that was my point precisely. The people who believe in evolution shouldn't ridicule those who believe in creation any more than those who believe in creation should ridicule those who believe in evolution. It's a two way street but some don't seem to realize that.

I just get tired of the smug superiority and outright snottiness some show on some of these topics.
 
Your point?
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Even scientists disagree about how man came to exist. If someone wasn't there at the beginning of mankind, then they can only speculate (like the rest of us).
As someone who agrees whole-heartedly with gay marriage, possibly believes in God, does not like "religion", and is iffy about the Bible, I find this thread insulting. The most important point here should be about having respect towards others. None of us were raised the same, or see the world through the same eyes. We all have different opinions, lifestyles, and dreams. The important thing is that we should all be respected for our individuality. How can someone preach the importance of tolerance for one set of people, yet totally redicule and disrespect another group of people?

No one knows with certainty where we came from, or where we're going. The only thing we do know is how we live our life and treat others while we are here. Life should be about being open-minded, tolerant, and respectful towards others - whether they are gay, religious, of a different nationality, or just your everyday oddball.
 
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thank you jill that was my point precisely. The people who believe in evolution shouldn't ridicule those who believe in creation any more than those who believe in creation should ridicule those who believe in evolution. It's a two way street but some don't seem to realize that.

I just get tired of the smug superiority and outright snottiness some show on some of these topics.
If encouraging people to think about and research a subject is showing superiority and snottiness then I proudly stand with all the snotty research Universities and labs and top scientists throughout the world.

My entire point in this thread has been that the vast majority of those opposed to gay marriage are opposed based on their bible,,,the same bible that says the world is 7000 years old and there is no evolution. If trying to make a better world for a minority group that is being denied the same rights that I'm not denied, based on nothing more than my sexual orientation, because of people reading this book then I will happily continue. I'm 100% tolerant of those keeping their faith to themselves but that's not what's happening. Take a look at what just happened in N.C. gay rights were slammed there by a 20% margin coming entirely from the Christian right.

100% tolerant of the tolerable
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Denying loving, kind, compassionate human beings the same rights you enjoy is IMO wrong and therefore intolerable.

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As someone who agrees whole-heartedly with gay marriage, possibly believes in God, does not like "religion", and is iffy about the Bible, I find this thread insulting. The most important point here should be about having respect towards others. None of us were raised the same, or see the world through the same eyes. We all have different opinions, lifestyles, and dreams. The important thing is that we should all be respected for our individuality. How can someone preach the importance of tolerance for one set of people, yet totally redicule and disrespect another group of people?
Tolerance is an easy word to throw around. Would you have been tolerant of the KKK? Would you have been tolerant of how our dark skinned friends were treated in the American 50's? There have been issues throughout our history where our tolerance for certain behaviors that are wrong require those offended to take a stance. If religion is consistent and all of it's rules are followed then I can respect that but lets face it...women are allowed to talk in church, people aren't stoned for working Sundays etc etc etc. Yet homosexual rights are denied. Should those of us with a voice who feel it's wrong keep our voices silent? I don't believe speaking up is being intolerant in a case like this
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ETA - You're asking me to be tolerant of a religion that is itself intolerant!
 
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I chose to leave this ship sometime back but my alter ego swam out and left this.

Atheist: "What's this fly doing in my soup?"

Waiter: "Praying."

Atheist: "Very funny. I can't eat this. Take it back."

Fly: "Whoo, prayer answered."

I am so glad that I have a sense of humor, even if it evolved from a sand dune lizard. Neither my religious beliefs or my God given personality would ever make me treat somebody unkind because they are different. It is hard for me to fathom that there are actually people who do not know any gay/lesbian people. I know more than a few. One is a relative. One is a daughter (in fact my favorite of all the daughters) of one of my dear friends. One was (now deceased) a very bright and productive co-worker. I enjoy their company but I do not meddle in their lives. Now if they ask me for an opinion they will get my honest opinion. If the issue here really is whether or not I would vote for gay marriage to be legal it simply is a no based on what I believe. I used to live in an apartment next door to a couple of gay guys. I liked one of them and the other I did not care for. Why? Because one was friendly, fun, and interesting and the other acted ticked off at everything all the time and never spoke to any of the neighbors. Could I live in a state that has made or makes gay marriage legal? Of course, if the state had the things are really important to me. A bunch of environmentalists trying to put the sand dune lizard on the endangered species list would be likely to keep me from choosing a particular state over the marriage issue. I am very comfortable in both how I treat people and how I exercise my vote on any issue period. Gotta swim.
 
Nice one Vickie
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I have to say that I admire that fact that you won't vote on the gay issue.

Gays are a minority and as such they could vote for gay marriage until the sky turns pink. That's why it's going to take more than a few of us who are not in their minority group to help people see that denying them the simple legal right of marriage isn't going to being the world to an end. I think by seeing just how many people are supporting it these days shows we are (sorry, no pun intended) evolving
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Why did the atheist cross the road?

He thought there might be a sidewalk on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.

How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb?

Two. One to actually change the bulb, and the other to videotape the job so fundamentalists won’t claim that god did it.

An atheist buys an ancient lamp at an auction, takes it home, and begins to polish it. Suddenly, a genie appears, and says, “I’ll grant you three wishes, Master.” The atheist says, “I wish I could believe in you.” The genie snaps his fingers, and suddenly the atheist believes in him. The atheist says, “Wow. I wish all atheists would believe this.” The genie snaps his fingers again, and suddenly atheists all over the world begin to believe in genies. “What about your third wish?” asks the genie. “Well,” says the atheist, “I wish for a billion dollars.” The genie snaps his fingers for a third time, but nothing happens. “What’s wrong?” asks the atheist. The genie shrugs and says, “Just because you believe in me, doesn’t necessarily mean that I really exist.”
 
So-called "men of God" preaching hate and murder. Lovely. From Ozy's link...

Knapp went on to read from Leviticus 20: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”

“They should be put to death,” Knapp declared. “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”

“You say, ‘Oh, I can’t believe you, you’re horrible. You’re a backwards neanderthal of a person.’ Is that what you’re calling scripture? Is God a neanderthal, backwards in his morality? Is it His word or not? If it’s His word, he commanded it. It’s His idea, not mine. And I’m not ashamed of it.”

“He said put them to death,” he continued. “Shall the church drag them in? No, I’m not say that. The church has not been given the power of the sort; the government has. But the government ought to [kill them]. You got a better idea? A better idea than God?”
The man should be ashamed of himself and his church - New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas - should be ashamed of him.

As should the church (Apostolic Truth Tabernacle in Greensburg, Indiana) who applauded this obviously coached little 4 year old singing... listen to the congregation APPLAUD & CHEER. IMO that is sickening. Oh the irony - there are likely people in the congregation who are closeted gays or who have gay family members...


Are more churches striving to become like Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church? I hope not...

ETA:

It looks like the Apostolic "Truth" Tabernacle is trying to do some damage control... from their website...

5/30/12 - The Pastor and members of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason. We believe and hope that every person can find true Bible salvation and the mercy and grace of God in their lives. We are a strong advocate of the family unit according to the teachings and precepts found in the Holy Bible. We believe the Holy Bible is the Divinely-inspired Word of God and we will continue to uphold and preach that which is found in scripture.
Bolding mine. Oh, the hypocrisy...

ETA2:

And Pastor Knapp is also trying to do damage control now - but not very successfully...

The Kansas-based pastor who argued that the U.S. government should put gay people "to death" is now defending his statements in an exclusive CNN interview.

"We punish pedophilia," Pastor Curtis Knapp of the New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kan. "We punish incest, we punish polygamy and various things. It's only homosexuality that is lifted out as an exemption."

As reported earlier this week by Good As You blogger Jeremy Hooper, Knapp appeared to call for the death of gays in a sermon. Hooper proclaimed: "Oh, so you're saying we should go out and start killing them? No, I'm saying the government should. They won't, but they should."

Though he stood by his comments, Knapp now tells CNN that he "[doesn't] think homosexuals have anything to worry about," adding, "My hope is for their salvation, not for their death."
 
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This (thanks Tag)

http://www.youtube.c...&v=I7nehgKtJqg#!

is so vile that it breaks my heart and I can only think of it as absolute child abuse. A child that young psychologically isn't yet distinguishing male vs. female gender "roles" so there is no way unless they have been coached (which we all know they were) by an adult that those words would be in their vocabulary. Do you know what type of person this poor innocent child is going to grow up to be? It literally makes me want to cry.

I have a rebuttal...

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Just come in on the end of this post. I'm not trying to say anbody is right or wrong, this is just how I feel so please don't be offended.

I am religious and according to scripture God doesn't tolerate 'sodomites', but having said that, it doesn't mean that I hate gay couples or treat them with any less respect than I would a straight person. My son has health issues and our favourite nurse at the hospital is gay.

I just read above about that pastor going off his nut about gays, I understand he has his feelings but what if a gay person was slightly interested in searching the word of God further? The pastor sure put an end to that! The thing is there are a lot of other things that God doesn't tolerate but its always between God and the individual, he didn't give man the permission to enforce his rules. Marriage originated from the bible and is between a man and a woman. I know most gays want the same rights but maybe to get it legalised and finished they could call the ceremony another name, not 'marriage' but still have all the benefits?

In australia its kinda the same as the u.s, think there's one state that accepts gay marriage. But the government recognises gay couples as defacto (which gives them the 'right' to pay more tax).

As I said before, I believe in the creator and that he made Adam and then Eve to be his wife, this is the way he wanted the world to be. But this is just my understanding, and I accept other people with their different ways of life, I treat them with respect to their views, because i know they respect mine.
 
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It's always amusing to me that so many straight people think that all gay men are "sodomites"; Whatever. To each their own...whatever feels good and doesn't hurt anyone else ;)
 
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Fortunatly Countrymini, you have an intellectual honesty that sadly some of your fellow believers don't have. I personally will not accept any form of racism or discrimination towards any group based on religion simply because some people claim it's taboo to criticise even abhorent injustices if they have a biblical basis behind them. This has been evidenced right here on LB recently when it's been shown that you're wide open for attack simply for speaking up against it.

I think what amazes myself and others is the degree of hypocrisy that these folks live under. It's sad that "faith" can do this to people. People patting themselves on the back that they are Christians and in the next second acting in a degree of nastiness beyond my personal understanding - all because of their religion. When you see it so easily happening here you can see how some of these preachers can get their flock all riled up to behave in the manner they are. All the adults in that church that are applauding that horrendous song that little child is singing - a normal rational mind without the mob mentality going on would/SHOULD be highly offended by such hatred. Yet, there they all are clapping and yelling in support because they're all caught up in the frenzied moment.

I call it hypocrisy because as you pointed out Countrymini "there are a lot of other things that God doesn't tolerate" that people are happy to ignore (stoning, killing, slavery, keeping the sabbath etc) I have a feeling it's because the LBGTQ community is easy prey. No one gets stoned when you single them out - going to Target on a Sunday morning and killing all the employees would draw attention to the absolute ridiculousness of the "command".

For the sake of the intellectual honesty I referred to above I think as a humanitarian it's not only fair but necessary to ask yourself the following questions when you're developing a base for discrimination based on one single book. I'm not directing this to you Countrymini
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This is an open question to anyone using a single written source for hatred and so eloquently written by someone with so much more experience than I that I'll almost copy it word for word. The bible is the gold standard for the Christian faith, the Koran is the gold standard for Islam. Both advocate for some acts to be committed that we today as a law abiding nation know are nothing short of disgusting (sadly for millions of Islamic women this message hasn't spread far enough) Ask yourself if there is the slightest shred of evidence that they were the product of omniscience? Is there a single sentence anywhere, on any page, that could not have been written by someone for whom a wheelbarrow was emergent technology? You have to say "no". If there were one mention of DNA or electricity or anything else that would astonish us then we'd have to have a serious conversation about the source of this knowledge for the time it was written.

I think that's why so many Christians are choosing to ignore some of the things their god is asking of them.

Thank god ;)
 
I just read this thread (okay, not all the way through--I started skimming after everything was beginning to be repeated). I thought that I would add my perspective as a young person who is still forming her opinion on such matters.

I was raised Christian. I am sincerely glad that I "had Jesus" growing up. It was a wonderful thing to believe in, and gave me a sense of security. Because of this, I would never dream of judging others for choosing this. It feels good to be Christian! To put your faith into something so wholly and not have to worry about things such as death and afterlife and the origin of existence. I am now, however, a declared atheist, though I am always interested in learning more and constantly questioning my beliefs or lack thereof. I simply find it too incredulous to believe that I just happened to be born into the "correct" religion--to simply follow the religion you are born into without further examination is not only ignorant but seems extremely vain to me.

I am, on some level, glad for religions. They instill wonderful morals (for the most part) and help to keep society in check. Until they don't. It is when religion starts getting in the way of others' health and happiness that problems arise.

I am a huge believer in the separation of church and state. What the heck does Christianity have to do with passing a law? Nothing! Laws should be passed based on the heath and well being of the country's citizens, not on a personal belief system.

For this reason, I find it appalling that gay marriage has not been absolutely passed as legal in the United States. We are HURTING American citizens by not allowing it to be passed. We would not, on the other hand, hurt anyone by passing the law. Religious people are going to continue to believe what they want regarding the matter, but there are LGBT couples whether they like it or not; handing those couples a piece of paper and allowing them some basic rights aren't going to hurt anyone. It's not as if it will create more gay people--people are either gay or not, no matter whether some law says they may be married in the eyes of the state. Allowing LGBT's to marry WILL, however, help current and future suffering American citizens, and should this not be the ultimate goal of our country?
 
Kaitlyn,

I have so much admiration for you
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I think it's so admirable that you have been able to use your free will an intelligence and come to such enlightening ideas after living both sides.

I also respect peoples right to believe anything they want to believe as long as it's kept totally out of the lives of others.

This is irrelevant for this thread but here is a very insightful video on the very subject you just covered (being born into the wrong faith) that I think you would really enjoy.



and a P.S. to your having to be religious to have morals. Recent studies done on our fellow ape species have shown that the great apes live in morally run units ;)
 
What thoughtful, eloquent posts by Matt, Ozymandias and Kaitlyn.

Matt, you are a better, more forgiving person than I.
 
It's always amusing to me that so many straight people think that all gay men are "sodomites"; Whatever. To each their own...whatever feels good and doesn't hurt anyone else ;)
Sorry, ive been misinformed lol, i'll edit my post
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When you see it so easily happening here you can see how some of these preachers can get their flock all riled up to behave in the manner they are. All the adults in that church that are applauding that horrendous song that little child is singing - a normal rational mind without the mob mentality going on would/SHOULD be highly offended by such hatred. Yet, there they all are clapping and yelling in support because they're all caught up in the frenzied moment.
Apart from teaching children hatred for other people i'd be moritified if someone taught my child a song based around sexual orientation - gay or straight!.
 
Thought i'd better read through all the posts from the start - love how some posts verge on politely insulting others (hehe).

Here's my understanding of the 10 commandments: in the new testement it states that they were only for the Jewish nation to be a school master till christ. They do not apply to us now. We are to live by Christ principles, not RULES, principles which are left for us to figure out exactly what each one means to us.

About God creating the world in 7 days and the world being 6000 years old? To believe it can only be through faith in something bigger than us. I researched, thought it out, and chose to believe that there must be something more to life than a quick 70 years of fame which is then forever gone. We were not built with intellect capable of comprehening the physics involved in creation, or the other dimensions that may be possible in this universe.

Anyways, that is TOTALLY off track lol (sorry)
 
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Never heard that interpretation of the 10 c's before CM
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I don't think there's a lot of U.S. Christian's thinking the old ones can be chucked out with the bath water.

"About God creating the world in 7 days and the world being 6000 years old? To believe it can only be through faith in something bigger than us." This is the big one I personally struggle to understand. Guess it's easier for my pea brain to grasp actual real facts than to be able to ignore them and put faith into something completely contrary. It's as hard for me to do that as it would be for me to convince myself the sky is yellow. I can argue facts but I can't argue "faith". I love a good debate but you got me beat on that one
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Love and peace
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Love and peace
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back at ya
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For those christians interested in my interpretation of the why the 10 commandments aren't there for us, read on. (taken from Galations 3, The Message bible)

9-10So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."

11-12The obvious impossibility of carrying out such a moral program should make it plain that no one can sustain a relationship with God that way. The person who lives in right relationship with God does it by embracing what God arranges for him. Doing things for God is the opposite of entering into what God does for you. Habakkuk had it right: "The person who believes God, is set right by God—and that's the real life." Rule-keeping does not naturally evolve into living by faith, but only perpetuates itself in more and more rule-keeping, a fact observed in Scripture: "The one who does these things [rule-keeping] continues to live by them."

13-14Christ redeemed us from that self-defeating, cursed life by absorbing it completely into himself. Do you remember the Scripture that says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"? That is what happened when Jesus was nailed to the cross: He became a curse, and at the same time dissolved the curse. And now, because of that, the air is cleared and we can see that Abraham's blessing is present and available for non-Jews, too. We are all able to receive God's life, his Spirit, in and with us by believing—just the way Abraham received it.

15-18Friends, let me give you an example from everyday affairs of the free life I am talking about. Once a person's will has been ratified, no one else can annul it or add to it. Now, the promises were made to Abraham and to his descendant. You will observe that Scripture, in the careful language of a legal document, does not say "to descendants," referring to everybody in general, but "to your descendant" (the noun, note, is singular), referring to Christ. This is the way I interpret this: A will, earlier ratified by God, is not annulled by an addendum attached 430 years later, thereby negating the promise of the will. No, this addendum, with its instructions and regulations, has nothing to do with the promised inheritance in the will.

18-20What is the point, then, of the law, the attached addendum? It was a thoughtful addition to the original covenant promises made to Abraham. The purpose of the law was to keep a sinful people in the way of salvation until Christ (the descendant) came, inheriting the promises and distributing them to us. Obviously this law was not a firsthand encounter with God. It was arranged by angelic messengers through a middleman, Moses. But if there is a middleman as there was at Sinai, then the people are not dealing directly with God, are they? But the original promise is the direct blessing of God, received by faith.

21-22If such is the case, is the law, then, an anti-promise, a negation of God's will for us? Not at all. Its purpose was to make obvious to everyone that we are, in ourselves, out of right relationship with God, and therefore to show us the futility of devising some religious system for getting by our own efforts what we can only get by waiting in faith for God to complete his promise. For if any kind of rule-keeping had power to create life in us, we would certainly have gotten it by this time.

23-24Until the time when we were mature enough to respond freely in faith to the living God, we were carefully surrounded and protected by the Mosaic law. The law was like those Greek tutors, with which you are familiar, who escort children to school and protect them from danger or distraction, making sure the children will really get to the place they set out for.
 
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