A pet peeve of mine - this just "drives" me CRAZY

[Chamomile]

The mullen bit works off the "bars" of the horses mouth, not the chin or the tongue. The broken snaffles work off the tongue and the bars. I agree with Margo on what she said about starter bits as well! I went to the Myler myself, for that reason. BUT I got my Mylers for $60 a piece!! What a great deal!! I was so exicted I couldn't believe it. We don't drive any of our horses in the starter bits either... They just didn't like them. I find that a bit with the fatter mouth pieces are less likely to pinch. The mullen mouth won't pinch at all, unless the mouth piece is too small for the horse. Maybe your guy takes a 4" bit??

You would know if your horse had a low roof of the mouth. It's pretty noticeable when you slide your fingers in. There isn't much room or any room between the tongue and the roof of the mouth...

I love reading what others say too! It's great to have so many minds working on these questions!! I LOVE it!!

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

But HOW?! I absolutely cannot afford a Mylar bit right now and that is what I want. He's in the starter bit that came with my Ozark Mtn. Carriage Harness, I believe it is this one?

How do I know if it's too thick or maybe pinching him somewhere? How do I find out if he needs a mullen mouth, a snaffle, or whathaveyou without spending hundreds of dollars to try each one once and then have them lying around?

365397[/snapback]

​

Leia, Check with some mini tack sellers on their policy for bit returns and perhaps try out a few different types to see which he favors. Never hurts to ask

. I also don't think the the bits that come with some harnesses are very worthwhile. Actually, I use mine as a towel hanger at my barn sink

I found a couple of very adequate bits; a liverpool with mullen mouth and a french link copper mouthed snaffle and both were around $30.00 each.

Have you measured Kody's mouth? Perhaps he needs a wider bit? 3.75" bits come with the harnesses because they are the average but some minis, like mine, may need a 4" to be comfortable to them.

 

[Chamomile]

triggynblue, where did you find your bits?? I was thinking that I might like to try a liverpool myself and those are great prices!!

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

Chamomile,

I got my bit from the wonderful folks at Chimicum Tack for $29.95 http://www.horsedriver.com/cart/draftbits.html The liverpool I got is #1013 but it's even better quality than the pic shows. There are absolutely no gaps at the joints and I think it's a very nicely made bit for the price. Here is a picture of it.

 

[js1arab]

Well, since this topic is on the comfort of the horses, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Firstly on the bit issue of pinching. It isn't always possible to tell just by looking at a bit if it will pinch. A really good test is to check EVERY jointed part of your bit by holding the jointed part against the skin between your thumb and index finger. If the bit pinches your skin, it will most likely pinch your horse as well. Don't be fooled by the fact that you bought an expensive bit. Always check even the priciest bits as they sometimes can end up with an undetected burr or pinch spot.

In regards to the harnessing. I was really happy to see this post as I had thought about the balance issue, but hadn't come to any brilliant conclussions on wrong or right

What I can tell you though is no matter how well you position your harness or how light the cart - the horse must still be conditioned. One of my biggest pet peeves in the big horse world is head collection. So many people think a horse should be able to come out of the winter and start right into training with his head set. Just because he knows how, doesn't mean he is physically able to. How many of us could do a cartwheel when we were young, but it is very difficult to do so now because we just don't use a lot of those muscles and they would need to be stretched and strengthened before it would be safe or comfortable to do those kinds of crazy things. Try this exercise. Put your chin down against your chest and do arm circles for just a short bit. How long did it take for your neck and arms to hurt? Not long huh? But yet horses are asked to do these things all the time without proper stretching. I know we all do things in a hurried manner at times, but I feel especially those competeing in highly athletic events should properly condition their horses.

OK, down off my soap box. Thanks again for a great topic!

 

[MiniHGal]

Wow, triggy, when I looked on that site earlier, I didn't see that bit! That is the exact one I have that I also bought another one of(3.5").

I definitely do not like the 'starter' bits, like the one you posted, for the reasons Margo posted(pinching at sides--and it does happen!), and because it is a large jointed and 'straight' bit, making for a pinching middle as well as probably hitting him in the roof of the mouth, regardless of whether he has a 'normal' mouth.

In fact, this could be causing some of your contact problems--ie: trying to push him out puts more pressure, and if this bit is bumping or pinching, obviously he is going to evade it--by stopping or slowing down.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

js1arab, I agree with you. Good point!

Chamomile, WHERE the heck did you get Mylers for that price?!

Triggynblue, thanks for both the advice and the link to Chimicum Tack. I also had never seen that page or looked there for bits at all, but at those prices I may just pick up a few kinds and try them.

So we're all clear that the starter bits suck. Duh...LOL. That's why they're starter bits.

And now I know a little bit more about how to check if a bit of a certain kind is well made. But that still leaves the question of how do you know which one your horse needs?

I'm sure there are rules for what each kind of bit is meant for, what stage of training or kind of discipline or temperment or something. Can someone (Margo, Breanna, Mindy) post a list of that kind of thing? Especially for snaffle vs. mullen mouth vs. liverpool vs. Mylar? I've now found some of each kind that I like, but I don't know where I should be leaning because I don't know what each bit is designed for. Somehow my 4-H education totally skipped bit functions.

And one last stupid newbie question...just how, precisely, do you measure them for a bit??

"Hold still while I stick this tape measurer across your tongue?" Have them bite down on a candy bar and measure the impressions?

I believe Kody currently has a 3.5" bit and it seems to sit correctly at the corners of his mouth, neither too wide or too narrow. He's only 33.5" tall with a small head to match.

Thank you all SO MUCH!!

I'm finally getting some answers!

Leia

Edited to add: Okay, shoot, found another one. What's the pros/cons of buying "malleable nickel plated" vs. "stainless steel?"

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

S how, precisely, do you measure them for a bit?? 

"Hold still while I stick this tape measurer across your tongue?" Have them bite down on a candy bar and measure the impressions? 

I believe Kody currently has a 3.5" bit and it seems to sit correctly at the corners of his mouth, neither too wide or too narrow. He's only 33.5" tall with a small head to match.

Edited to add: Okay, shoot, found another one. What's the pros/cons of buying "malleable nickel plated" vs. "stainless steel?"

365668[/snapback]

​

Hi Leia, It doesn't have to be dead on but what I do is make a mark on a pencil in perm marker, hold it at the mark put it in where the bit should rest, grab it at the other side at mouth's corner and slip it out and measure. Choose the closer measurment and always go up to the next 1/4" unless it's very close. Ideally, there should be at least an 1/8" of play for comfort. At least that is how I have been doing it and have not had any pinched or chaffed lips.

If you find Kody is still having problems and you know it is not tooth-related (or even if it is) you may want to try the bitless bridle. You're welcome to try mine out to see if he works better in it before ordering one.

 

[willowoodstables]

I have been too busy to post here, but so far so good kids!

To the person asking about French Tugs (or Loops)... it is absolutely necessary to have shaft stops for them to be truly efficient. I have both wrap and french tugs and I LOVE my frenchies

! Such a neat neat appearance, and sooo easy to hook a horse (once set it is one buckle to tighten and way you go). Here is a picture of correctly positioned French tugs:

Note: The tug itself is darn near even steven with the backpad (should be!), the breastcollar is near in line with the shafts (this is a Hackney pony so her shoulder movement does lift the breastcollar as she trots) and it is just such a neat trim eye-appealing "line" IMHO for show harness.

Kim

 

[Chamomile]

Yea for the comment about having a horse properly conditioned!!! That is soooo important and I'm very glad someone brought it up!!!

I have always used a snaffle of some kind, except when I was in 4-H. The old ways in 4-H were if the horse was over three it should be ridden in a shank bit, regardless whether it was actually ready for it or not. That didn't sit well with my mare that I had at the time. I had to use a tom thumb and be VERY gentle with her.

Anyways! I will only drive my horses with a snaffle. I have a myler comfort snaffle with a small port, because I wanted to be working off the bars of the mouth as well as the tongue. If you go to the Myler websiteMyler Bits they have a section about which bit for which horse. They discuss why and when you use a bit with a shank or a snaffle... It is the same for other bits as well. It's all the same principle, IMO anyway...

I got my myler bits off the sale board!! I was sooooo happy!! I LOVE that saleboard, Thank you Mary Lou!!

As for stainless steel verses maleable nickel plated... I'm not sure what the difference is myself. I did a search for it on the web and didn't come up with much useful! Learned a bit about old fashion bits made with the sweet mouth, copper inlay though

I hope someone else has some insight into that question as well!!

 

[Margo_C-T]

Triggy is right about how to measure for bit width.

Nickel plated is pretty much the least expensive type of bit;"maleable" is just a buzz word, IMO. I have owned a number of them(my ownership of bits goes back to WAY before stainless steel was even available!)-they do come in differing quality, but the plating "can" flake off in use. Some people don't think that horses "like" the taste of stainless, and this is one reason for the use of copper/copper inlays on the mouthpiece. My personal favorite is "sweet steel", but I've never found it in a mini bit; my bits are a mix of plated, stainless(with copper inlay-the Mylers)and copper mouthpieces. Brass, though it is handsome, is too weak for a bit, and is prone to failure(probably wouldn't be as much of an issue in mini size as it would in big horse size.)

Smuckers has the 3 3/4" mullen mouth Liverpool on their website for $27.95-looks just like the one pictured in an earlier post...best price I've seen. Just measure your horse's mouth accurately; I have never had any of my 34" and under horses use anything over a 3 1/2" width; the B mare takes a 3 3/4".

I think you may find that *most*horses can be happy in a well-constructed basic broken mouth snaffle, or, a well-made mullen mouth. One of my favorite(because it is so well-received by my horses!)bits is a "fat" mullen mouth-but I don't recall where it came from, and have never seen another like it(most I see have a noticably smaller diameter mouthpiece.)One of the reasons, I believe, why the Mylers are so well-received-especially their more "basic" mouthpieces-is that they are engineered to be very acceptable to most all horses. I believe their most versatile bit is the one that "acts as" a mullen, even though it "appears" to have a double-jointed center(sorry, don't recall the number....)

To see some examples of the "non-pinch"mouthpieces, go to the bits page at www.miniexpress.com.(Of course, there are other places that have them; this is just the first one I came across with good photos!)

On the issue of French or Tilbury tugs(essentially the same thing; the tug loop actually 'snugs down' onto the shaft, gripping it tightly, by pulling one end of the loop through a sort of "open"(no tongue)buckle,then on down to be buckled onto the overgirth.) When I ordered my first Lutke harness, that is what I was told to order, and I used them on my Jerald show cart for years, but to be honest, I would not use them now. If a cart if properly balanced, the shaft should virtually "float" in the tug loop with the load on board-no way can that happen with that kind of tug and a cart(two wheeled vehicle). It seems to me that these kinds of tugs have become common in the show ring with two wheeled show carts, but I have to wonder how comfortable this sometimes is for the horse? Of course, in the show ring, it is level going, and no horse actually "goes" for any distance, as they might in the "real world"-which IMO is why it is "gotten by" with-and if you have them, you can probably get by OK using them in the show ring-personally,though, I surely wouldn't use them in any other venue-at least, not to a cart! When I ordered another Lutke, I had it made with BOTH kinds of tugs(open, with wrap straps, AND Tilbury-and with breeching, for maximum versatility.) I have since sold the second Lutke, as I am about through with the show ring-and if I do show in "round-the-perimeter"driving, it will only be Country, and I have a Smuckers, to a road cart, for that! French tugs are said to be fine with a FOUR wheeled vehicle and a single horse, as there is pretty much never more than the weight of the shaves themselves in the tug loops-and therefore, borne by the horse's back via the harness saddle.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, but which I have seen(to my dismay!)-is, wrapping the traces around the shaves! If you have a singletree, this will totally negate its benefits(which is to 'absorb' much of the movement of the shoulders, so that the horse doesn't receive a "jolt" at every stride! So-don't do this; if your traces are that much too long, take them to a harness/saddle maker or repair person and have them shortened!

And YES! A big "Amen" to the comment about conditioning the horse-legging it up, and having it fit for what you want to do, is JOB ONE!

 

[MiniHGal]

Thanks Margo and Willowood...I don't use French/Tilbury tugs...so don't have the experience with them.

The trace wrapping is a good point Margo, and one I am surprised no one brought up(including me). Its just not good, especially when it is an easy fix! And if your traces are truely that long...what else on the harness is oversized that you are 'making do' with? There was a photo not too long ago with the shaft tips a fair bit in front of the shoulder, and yet, the traces were wrapped around the shafts?

Can someone (Margo, Breanna, Mindy) post a list of that kind of thing? Especially for snaffle vs. mullen mouth vs. liverpool vs. Mylar?

I have not had experience with all bits, not even most, or half....but a few basic 'bit' guidelines, as I've been taught them(when I use the word 'snaffle' I mean a bit with one break in the mouthpiece):

~Start out the gentlest bit. That way you can move up if the horse's mouth requires it.

~Snaffles/Mylars are independent sides(movable, at least) and so you can usually signal better with one side or the other.

~Mullens are good for some horses who have issues with snaffles, and can also be training bits. Not always as 'refined' a touch, as the whole bit moves with one side. However, I have found that most horses can differentiate the side-movement anyway, and it hasn't been a problem. A hard or thick mouthed horse would probably not go in a mullen.

~Curbs are advanced bits, not training bits. Depending on the horse, they can be moved up to one fairly quickly...some horses will never go in them, whether lack of more advanced training, the horse's preference, the driver's preference, or show rules(ie: A/R). There are different types for nearly anything, and the more proper driving bits are usually curbs. The ADS handbook I think still lists some of the 'proper' turnouts and what bits are preferred to go along with the turnout.

~Twisteds of any kind are never starting training bits. I personally wouldn't use a twisted on any horse unless it was 'remedial'(sp?) training and the horse had some severe problems in running through the bit or other stuff(in which case it may not be easy to bring the horse back anyway). In any case, not something I would like to see in any well trained horse's mouth.

~The hands make the bit severe...but its best to stay with the bit your horse goes best in.

These are just things I have as accepted parameters in using bits. There are so many different types and styles...that is why there are books out! The Mylar website is good for explaining what their different bits are for.

 

[Sterling]

I'm glad the bit question came up and am hoping someone can answer this question for me. For lunging purposes I am using an "O" ring snaffle bit on my driving horse. I've noticed he goes sooo well in it and does not play/fidget with the bit like he does when he's actually in harness driving when I use the regular half cheek snaffle bit that came with my harness. He is not light to drive....any ideas or suggestions on what bit I can graduate to?

 

[Sue_C.]

I do not think there is any rule that says you cannot use a ring snaffle bit. If he is going so very well in the ring snaffle, and you are allowed to use it...then by all means, I would stick with it.

He probably likes the feeling of looseness a ring allows; while the half-cheek is a fixed mouth. Perhaps as me matures, he will not require the "soother effect", and you can go on to another bit if you wish, but I always figure...if it ain't broke...don't fix it.

 

[ibquackers20]

just bunping this up in case someone else needs help, It does have a great photo of how to wrap the wrap straps -- which I goofed on / lol

 

[RNR]

THis was a great thread! I read the whole thing!! I learned alot and saved all the pics!

THANKS FOR THE INFO!!

RNR

 

[ibquackers20]

well it helped me and is very good for information on driving and needed to be bumped up again for us amatures to know and learn from.

 

[The Dynamic Duo]

on the whole pet peeve thing i have another one- when horses stick out there tongues and leave them hanging

kid does that and he did it today so i poked his tongue and said put it up

 

[Chamomile]

Hey! This looks familiar!!

I'm glad this post helped so many people. Please, anyone! If you need help with the driving thing, please email or pm me and I'll be happy to answer questions!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think this was one of the better threads this forum ever got (even if I did hijack it a bit, pun intended)

Glad to see it up again!

Leia