A pet peeve of mine - this just "drives" me CRAZY

[MiniHGal]

Actually, Chamomile, you are perfectly right about where Maryanne's breastcollar sits on her horse--it is just right. The hook up to the saddle is also acceptable(tho only seen in minis...CDE wise...may have some fine harness horses with it hooked as pictured).

justa...I do agree that the 4-wheel carriages are better, overall...and that is what I drive my big horses in, single, but unfortunately, the single mini vehicles that are balanced, sturdy, and lightweight are few and far between(or, like the phaeton, aren't CDE vehicles or are heavy). So for those of us without a pair(can't find a pair mate), it is rather limited. And honestly, I rarely shift position to where it changes the balance load significantly--you should start out in a comfortable, easy to sit position and have the cart balanced to that. Of course, maybe my perception will change as I get older....

Driving a team hooked to a good vehicle is a very pleasant way to spend a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon or a nice summer evening.

Here's another shot of Bug harnessed up... This is a more correct shot, of the traces, I think  Let me know if you guys see something wrong here... I noticed that the cart is a bit too far back on Bug, it should be up by his point of his shoulder...

LOL....actually I do see something wrong.

He doesn't have a bridle or reins on! Bad habit to fall into...ADS would dismiss from show grounds for no bridle or reins on and cart hitched(think of going to put on the bridle, he suddenly spooks, and pulls back, there goes hitched horse with nothing on his head to catch him with).

And while the shafts are a little bit farther back than they should be, I would rather have them too far back than too far forward. You can see in my pictures that I sometimes have the shafts too far back--it depends on how everything 'fit' that day--it may have been that the next hole closer brought the shafts to the middle of the neck or an inch in front of the point of the shoulder.

And that sure is some heavy going!

And Leia you are right...situations like that are why many carts have trace holders...occassionally, something will be going on where the horse is not in draft, and the traces will droop. I catch mine up in the breeching, but as many people do not use it(personally a bit of a safety issue to me...), they can't.

I think I will go outside today when I go to drive Dan and take some shots of proper vs. improper ways of harnessing! Sounds like a good idea to me!

 

[Chamomile]

Thank you MiniHGal!! I only had him tied so I could take these photos. Someone on the forum was needing pitcures to help her hitch her horse last summer so I tied up Bug and took those photos... I alway harness with the bridle on!! Also another thing is I usually drive with breeching, but that day we were also showing, and since they don't allow breeching, I didn't have one on. I also catch my traces in my breeching when I have it on. I don't know why the traces were so low in that photo, except I do remember he was being a bit rushy sometimes in that parade and I had to have a nice tight hold on him. I may have been pulling him back in the cart a bit, to cause the traces to fall like that. I am very aware of that and if it is a problem I get out and readjust everything. Hard to do in a parade!!! BUT last year in the Homecoming parade I did stop the parade to adjust someone elses harness!!! So I have been known to go to extremes.... Safety first!!

Bug does seem happier when the cart is set a little behind his point of shoulder... it seems to open him up in front better and he can really fly!

It would be so great if you would do some shots of a proper hook up and an improper one!!! Thanks so much!!

 

[Sue_C.]

See how the cart has a nice uphill angle from the cart to the horse? That means the weight of the cart and your husband are not on your horses back.

Actually, I would rather see the shaves in a straight line from the horse to cart. If the shaves are going up-hill, no, there is no weight ON the saddle...but it very well could be on your girth instead.

Also, as for heavy going in a ring, if you use larger wheels, with less tread, your horse will find it much easier to push the cart along.

 

[MiniHGal]

Ok, went out and took those pics as promised!! But I am embarrassed...horse is dirty and sporting 2 different clip jobs(the trace was actually done back in Dec!! and head a month ago), and harness is exceptionally dirty as well. Dan may be going to his second driving show in May(so will be nice and clean and clipped) and the harness will probably be used in that show, so will also be squeaky clean. Sorry about that...

I also put on the blinders(still have roger rings for tandem on the rosettes) for those of you who drive with them on. And of course I drove in them after the picture session--he was good, if surprised.

There are alot and you are totally and absolutely free to ask questions, discuss, what have you...take note that this is a rather large B-size harness, so in most cases, Dan is on the first hole(farthest from the tip) and there are several excess straps. The EE is also set up for B sizes(in general, EEs fit better on the B's), so the balance issue is important.

Blinder placement--eye in the middle. The browband needs to be pushed down a little(was sitting up because his forelock is braided).

Breastcollar placement: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

The good:

Finger showing where point of shoulder is.

The bad(breastcollar is sitting right on point of shoulder):

The ugly(breastcollar below point of shoulder, indicated by finger):

More to come...and I may have overdid it on the pictures...sorry.

 

[MiniHGal]

Breeching placement. I realize this is something most people do not use, but I added it anyway...you never know! I need to punch more holes in the hip strap before being able to show a too-high breeching.

Correct from behind(though a little lopsided...not a place I would recommend being, either):

Correct from side:

Incorrect(too low) from side. This is a big thing--if your breeching is too low and you go down a hill without brakes...you could literally sweep the hind legs out from under the horse.

Correct looseness of breeching. The breeching should be adjusted to about a hand's width loose in draft(traces tight). Big horses usually are a 'bigger' hand, not tight like mine is. That is due to difference in size.

Too loose...my hand is not even touching the horse.

Yet more to come.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We saw a Shetland harnessed at the Glen Rose show yestreday in warm-up that was SO totally wrong it was frightening... they had the tugs pushed BEHIND the shaft stops so far back there was at least a foot of shaft in FRONT on the horse's shoulder! And the traces just flopped along- he was pulling by the saddle. It was a wonder he wasn't hitting his hocks on the cart! They did stop and "fix" the harness, but when they went in their class it was still pushed behind the stop. It was a shame, because it was a beautifully moving animal.

And these people had been showing for years... our stall neighbors told us that...

Lucy

 

[MiniHGal]

Lucy...that is scary....

Here comes the 'problem' with this cart and this horse. Dan is 33.5", but this cart is just a little too large and isn't real well balanced--the point of balance is higher than where it should be, on a perfectly balanced horse and cart. However, it still works...and this is why: When you sit in the cart, this tug placement gives you almost a float--the shafts have very little weight on them, but the wrap straps aren't being pulled up either(shafts too high). But when you look at the picture, it doesn't seem quite right...yet that is where the balance point is; if I move the shafts down a hole, Dan is carrying a fair bit of weight on his back.

This would be part of the reason I don't care for EE's, they seem to sit you farther forward, making it necessary to tip the shafts up more to reach the balance point. Look for a cart that is nearly horizontal at its balance point with the driver in it.

Perfectly balanced with driver in it. Note that the wrap straps are longer than they should be, meaning that the wraps go back farther on the shafts...but not a big deal. If I was driving with no breeching in this cart, I would have to add tug stops to stop the cart instead of the breeching.

Very badly balanced...most of my weight would be on his back when I sat in the cart(which I didn't).

How it should look from Driver's point of view in this cart, with this horse and harness(without the uneven reins, LOL).

I was holding the reins for safety as I was doing this alone--that way if he spooked I would be able to use the reins. He is also crosstied with a collar on.

 

[Chamomile]

Thanks MiniHGal!!! Those are really helpful photos and I enjoyed seeing Dan again

I just love him!!

I do know that bigger tires make for a smoother pull for the horse. This cart was made for Bug and the smaller horses. The bigger tires make the balance off. I would rather scratch a class if the footing isn't good than have my cart be off balance.

Yes to the cart shafts pulling on the belly band as well. BUT again I would much rather see an uphill slant of the shafts than a downhill or a horizontal with an unbalanced cart. Like MiniHGal said, I haven't hitched many horses to the easy entry and been successful with the balance being right and the shafts horizontal. But I have been driving the small A's the bigger A's and the small B's 34.5"... I do know that the easy entry carts balance sooooo much better on a bigger B horse. I don't recommend many easy entry carts for the smaller horses.

Thanks guys!! I love checking back to see what has been shared while I was away!

 

[sandra dittus]

Great learning topic. I printed most of it out for future refference.

Thanks,

Sandy D

 

[Sue_C.]

We are very lucky, as there are several excellent welding/machine shops in the area. I just draw out my specifications on graph paper, take them in...and the cart is made for the horse. I had my show cart built so that it goes well with 20 inch wheels for my "shorties", and with 24 inch wheels for my larger horses. Same cart, just switch wheels. And the balance is extraordinary, I love it!

Here is a picture of my former stallion, who at 30 inches, could still keep shaves level in his easy entry type cart, using 20 inch wheels, and one of my larger mares in the 24 inch wheels, in the show cart.

 

[Sterling]

Great thread you guys...I will be printing it out as well.

 

[Shaladar]

Hi,

A question on the wrap straps...

Do you figure-eight the wrap straps around the tugs, or just wrap them around the shafts next to the tugs? (I can't tell in the pictures) I have seen it done both ways, and I was taught to figure-8 them around the tugs, and want to be sure I am doing it right

Thanks,

Sue

 

[Chamomile]

Here is a photo of how I wrap my wrap straps. I do the figure eight wrap...

My hand is showing how I run my traces behind the tugs and above the wrap straps....

Thanks to everyone that has posted on here and added their photos too!!! Thanks so much!!

 

[HGFarm]

I think this is a really good subject, and thank you for bringing it up!! It will help many folks who do not know about harnessing correctly!

Laurie

 

[ThreeCFarm]

So what is the proper way to attach the breeching to the cart? It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

 

[maryann]

This thread has been so helpful. I have learned more from it than our driving training videos and books. Thank you so much for all your information. I do have one more question. How tight should the saddle be? I thighten it snug and then when I pull the tugs tight the buckle for the saddle looks too loose. am I pulling the tugs too tight? Or is it ok just to tighten up the saddle buckle again. Also thanks so much for going to all the trouble to take right and wrong pics. They are so helpful. Thanks so much . Mary f

 

[Sue_C.]

A backsaddle does not have to be tight, neither do the girth/tug straps, they should be "snug", but not so tight it interferes with the girth. If they are all done up too tight, the horse will be pulling the cart with the tugs, not pushing with the breastplate...and THAT is MY pet peeve.

Here are a couple of good pictures of how to wrap.

 

[Chamomile]

Here is a photo of the breeching, the way I wrap it anyway!

It is important to make sure your saddle is tight enough that the belly wrap isn't the thing keeping the saddle in place. I usually tighten my wrap straps enough so that when we are trotting the tugs aren't bouncing, of course! My horses hate that, I guess that would be thier pet peeve!!

Yes, it is very important that the horses are pulling with the breast collar and not the tugs... it's also important that the cart isn't pulling on the belly band with the weight of the person in the cart. It's all about balance and you may find that the cart is balanced differently with every horse you drive! Remember what works for one horse, or one person, doesn't always work for the next guy! This post is strictly my opinions and the opinions of the others that have posted. I just feel that it is time for the horses to be more comfortable!! Thanks again guys

 

[ClickMini]

GREAT THREAD, very educational! Thanks to all the experienced drivers on the board!

Now I have two questions about my turnout, which I have not used yet.

My harness has the French Tugs, is this an okay thing?

Also, my cart does not have tug stops, is this a problem, and can I put them on after the fact?

This is a show ring turnout, strictly for use in the ring. When we go to CDE driving later in life, we will be getting all new equipment.

Thanks!

 

[MiniHGal]

I do both the figure eight and my own method--wrap through(on top of) the tug, then wrap toward the cart and buckle...either way is perfectly alright.

Sue's explanation on saddle/wrap snugness is what I have....snug, but not as tight as a riding girth...and must be either equal snugness or wrap straps looser, or you can get rubs.

The picture for the wrap straps looks good except that it seems to have the strap wrapping around the trace, catching it close to the shaft? If so, not good because then you will be pulling from the saddle(since the trace force will go to the wrap strap enclosing it)...but I don't think thats the case, just how the drawing looks.

Breeching picture looks about like mine, though I only run the tail end of the strap through the wrap on the shaft that is closest to the buckle--makes for a quicker unhitch.

Sue, you're lucky that you have such nice welders--that is really the way to get 'custom' balanced carts! Actually..that is how I was able to get my cart made custom...though unfortunately he is very short on time...so no more. I just find that the Frontier EEs have...interesting balance--those kinds are the carts that you have to be very careful about balancing, regardless of the 'picture'.

Here are some examples of well balanced carts--and on a well-balanced cart, the traces should follow the line of the shafts...but obviously that is not always the case.

A Jerald put to a 34-35" horse. Balance in tugs: nearly zero. Heavy cart(130 probably with the wood wheels?), but easy to pull.

My roadster put to above horse. Balance in tugs: most definitely zero(it would literally float if allowed to do so, and I keep the wrap straps a little looser because it is well balanced). Light cart, easy to pull. Because I wanted a good center of balance, as well as a low one(no tippings, please!), but on the larger horse, we went with the curved up shafts, that level out from mid-barrel on, and level out from the bend(near trace attachment) back. That way I am level, and she has a nice level line without it poking her in the neck(or shoulder for that matter). I like it...but still some things I would change(ie: add singletree...because it is a light cart, no problems, but still nicer to have one).