Would you breed to a stallion?

[Buckskin gal]

I am so glad to see this topic brought up because people just starting out in Miniatures really do need to understand the horrible consequences in breeding known dwarf producers. Yes there may be some who think they are cute but they can suffer and they can be unsightly. Thank you Annette for putting the picture on...more and more we need to learn what lines have produced dwarfs and then avoid them. I wish each and every person who has had a dwrf would let all of us know what the breeding was so we are aware. This is why this forum is so terrific...we learn and learn and learn. Mary

 

[runamuk]

I would want to know the circumstances further....was it one dwarf or was it many.....what was the status of the mare that produced the dwarf if it was only once..her age, health, nutritional status, possible illness or contact with chemical or biological contaminants......

And this breed would have very very few horses if any left to use if you avoided all the lines that have produced dwarves

especially since many many farms would never admit to them and continue breeding, and not to mention the sheer number of horses who have pedigrees that are wrong.

I believe to eliminate it entirely we would need to start over with pony stock and begin breeding down...however dwarfism also happens with less frequency in shetlands, welsh, arabians, and friesens

 

[ThreeCFarm]

No, I wouldn't breed to a dwarf producer. In fact, we gelded one last year at 15 years old, despite the fact that he was the sire of a PtHA Reserve World Champion, Supreme Champs, Honor Roll horses, etc. I don't want to produce carriers of the dwarf gene. Our former stallion is now a wonderful driving gelding a few hours from here. BTW, after it happened to us, we found out from a previous owner (not the one who sold him to us) that it wasn't his first dwarf! If they would have gelded him, we woudn't have experienced the heart ache that we did. I don't blame them for our not knowing, as that should have been revealed by the person we bought him from. One dwarf is all it takes for me!

As far as avoiding anything from his bloodlines, no I wouldn't do that. There is no way to know which horse passed the dwarf gene(s) on--his dam or sire, unless you know if one of them has produced a dwarf. And then you wouldn't know which one of that horse's parents passed it on, etc. You'd be ruling out a lot of horses for no reason. I'm sure someone else could say this much clearer, but this is the best I can do right now.

Realized late last night that I forgot to add that the mare that produced the dwarf is now in a pet home with two little girls to love her.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I would want to know the circumstances further....was it one dwarf or was it many.....what was the status of the mare that produced the dwarf if it was only once..her age, health, nutritional status, possible illness or contact with chemical or biological contaminants......
And this breed would have very very few horses if any left to use if you avoided all the lines that have produced dwarves

  especially since many many farms would never admit to them and continue breeding, and not to mention the sheer number of horses who have pedigrees that are wrong.

  I believe to eliminate it entirely we would need to start over with pony stock and begin breeding down...however dwarfism also happens with less frequency in shetlands, welsh, arabians, and friesens

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While I somewhat agree.. if someone took a stance a few years ago (seeing as our breed isnt that old) we might not have nearly as many line producing dwarves as we do today

 

[Chamomile]

I just have to add... There was a threaad started about this very same topic, last summer, I think, and so many people said they would breed to a stallion that produced dwarves. They said it wasn't fair to blame the stallion when both mare and stallion had to have the gene, ect... If I remember correctly the stallion in question then was young and hadn't had many foals, one dwarf and one with some other problem. And yet people said "Give him a chance!" I think it's so interesting to see how people change over time. We had our dwarf at the time and so am still on the same side I was then, don't do it!! I am very happy to read that more people are trying to steer clear of that issue!

 

[CNC MINIS]

I would never breed a known dwarf producer not only is it heart breaking when they only live for a short time and most suffer you are adding more to the breeding pool.

What do you tell someone that has a known dwarf producer that thinks the horse is the greatest thing in the world and doesn't want to hear about having him gelded and wants to keep breeding him? What would you tell this person? And yes she stands this horse at stud.

Christy

 

[hhpminis]

Hi Christy

Unfortunately that is a tough thing to do. We really can only police ourselves when it all boils down.

If this person is aware that her stallion produces dwarves, whether that be 1 or more than other than making a recommendation that she doesn't breed, what she does with her stallion is up to her conscience.

Not all dwarf producers are consistent dwarf producers. I dont know what the "right" gene mixture is for that gene to make itself evident. Does it take a gene from each parent? I dont know.

When I went to the AMHA convention in Portland there was a speaker that discussed the research being done on dwarves. It is limited but at least it is being researched. At least it is being recognized as a problem.

It is somewhat like breeding for Overos, the chance of having a lethal white is very much a possibilty but some are willing to do it and prepare themself for the possibility. I could not do that either. Before the flamethrowers come out, I am not comparing the 2 as anything alike, just stating that some breeders, aware of the possibilities choose to take chances.

 

[Leeana]

..i wouldnt take the chance personally.

If i knew the stallion threw dwarves or could have the gene ...it wouldnt even cross my mind to breed or be taken into consideration.

Leeana

 

[New_Image]

I would want to know the circumstances further....was it one dwarf or was it many.....what was the status of the mare that produced the dwarf if it was only once..her age, health, nutritional status, possible illness or contact with chemical or biological contaminants......

That was pretty much my first thought on this subject.

 

[PaintsRule]

Okay, since I am new to this, and dont know too much about Dwarves, by everyone's replies I assume the dwarf gene is recessive???? if that is so, I didnt see too much mention of the mares in question that produced the dwarf gene, not being used again...... if its not recessive (and only one copy is needed) then why was the mares that produced the dwarf not blacklisted too.......

And are we sure its genetic at all, in that a parent has to pass it on?

Just wanting to learn.

 

[Debby - LB]

....Exactly what I was thinking Mindy. I remember that post and ones before that. At the time most members recommended never breeding the mare and stallion in question together again but don't throw them away yet.....use them with other mates then if it happens again retire either from the breeding shed. I don't see the need, I'm of the mind it takes them both so for me neither will breed again. There are so many miniatures why even try again with either? The heartache of producing dwarves really should have been controlled in the miniature horse registry already, by that I mean stricter breeding and registering rules.

I just don't see the need to continue to breed a know dwarf thrower, some older breeders take it as a given that it happens sometimes and I know it does but it doesn't have too.... we are educated enough now to see what needs to be done.

So I guess you see what my answer is, No I wouldn't consider it.

 

[kaykay]

i do not believe that there is a mini bloodline that has never produced a dwarf. It is in every bloodline. If we threw out every bloodline that has produced a dwarf we would be left with zero. That includes famous stallions that we all admire and talk about here almost daily. They would all be geldings.

We can reduce the risk of producing a dwarf but we cannot eliminate it since there is so much unknown about dwarfism.

I think the biggest problem is minimal expression dwarfs. People dont see the dwarf traits and breed them.

 

[mizbeth]

Hi ChristyUnfortunately that is a tough thing to do.  We really can only police ourselves when it all boils down.

If this person is aware that her stallion produces dwarves, whether that be 1 or more than other than making a recommendation that she doesn't breed, what she does with her stallion is up to her conscience. 

Not all dwarf producers are consistent dwarf producers.  I dont know what the "right" gene mixture is for that gene to make itself evident.  Does it take a gene from each parent?  I dont know.

When I went to the AMHA convention in Portland there was a speaker that discussed the research being done on dwarves.  It is limited but at least it is being researched.  At least it is being recognized as a problem.

It is somewhat like breeding for Overos, the chance of having a lethal white is very much a possibilty but some are willing to do it and prepare themself for the possibility.  I could not do that either.  Before the flamethrowers come out, I am not comparing the 2 as anything alike, just stating that some breeders, aware of the possibilities choose to take chances.

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I agree with this statement 100%. It is the responsibility of the breeder to make decisions regarding their breeding/programs. We have yet to have a dwarf but feel with the law of averages it could happen one day. I know several breeders that continue to breed their proven dwarf producing stallions/mares. It is unfortunate of course if they produce a dwarf. But since the research is still new perhaps their are other causes for foals being born a dwarf/dwarf characteristics? I would like to think that anyway.

I had a breeder tell me one day, that they had a mare that produced a LW every other year. Gee.........that would break my heart, but that is me! Any business especially raising live animals has risks. Some of us can take them and some not. I think in general everyone is concerned about protecting our miniature horses, the breed as whole and try to breed the best they can.

I appreciate this board more than anyone knows as I have learned SO MUCH about miniature horses, breeding, foaling, raising, training them.

But to answer your original question. I don't think I would continue to breed a stallion or mare that produces dwarfs.

Have a Merry Christmas.....

Beth

 

[mizbeth]

Frankly, I don't know much about the dwarf genetic code.  Sadly, a friend purchased a beautiful stallion and the owner didn't disclose that 80 percent of his offspring were dwarfs. 

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Sadly indeed! Was it the same mare (s) each year he was bred too? My understanding of producing a dwarf is that it takes a gene from each parent?

Beth

 

[Cronewolf]

NO! NOT EVER!! NEVER!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

NO, never -would I breed a stallion that has produced even one dwarf, and the same goes with mares..I will not rebred a mare if I know she has produced a dwarf either. It takes a gene from each parent to produce the dwarf, but if I know that one HAS the gene..I would definitely TRY to stay away from breeding that particular one. I know some people do breed there stallions, and "only produce a dwarf or two" but to me, I just coldnt take the heartbreak of having a badly deformed dwarf. I have never produced a dwarf but Ido know it could happen someday, and I am so thankful that research is finally being done on dwarfism. Maybe in the near future some of our questions will be able to be answered more clearly. Sadly, alot of people dont recoginize dwarf characteristics when there foals are born, and when confronted about it refuse to admit they have produced a dwarf, or if a dwarf is born hide the fact that there stallions or mares have produced a dwarf. Corinne

 

[hhpminis]

I think the biggest problem is minimal expression dwarfs. People dont see the dwarf traits and breed them. KayKay I think you are very right and this is a huge contributor to the problem. I just feel very strongly that we, as breeders of this day, are more aware and therefore have the responsibiity to try to stop this.

We can reduce the risk of producing a dwarf but we cannot eliminate it since there is so much unknown about dwarfism. I believe this mostly true. There were a lot of mistakes made in miniature horse generations past. With discernment and personal herd control, even with economic disadvantage to ourself, we need to set firmer breeding standards.

I hope the research will continue, I hope someday we have the correct answer on what causes dwarfism. Right now we dont. But that doesn't let us off the hook too assume that "Oh, it was just one, I will try again"

I have to think in people terms as after all, horses are mammals and a lot of things and procedures we do as far as medicine and treatments are human type. In humans dwarfism has many causes, not just genetic. The dysfunction of the thyroid or pituitary gland or that the HGH hormone is not passed correctly to the fetus during gestation, these can all be a cause as well as the passing of the mutated chromosome that causes dwarfism or Achondroplasia. The odds of a human passing this if they have it is 50%. If both parents have it it is still 50%, but they also have a 25% chance of having a normal child, and a 25% chance of passing just one chromosone. This child would normally display minor symptoms.

I can only answer for myself and until I could prove that it would not happen again and it was a freak of nature, dont know how this would be done, I have to say that I would not breed a known dwarf producer again.

 

[Lauralee]

I agree with kaykay's post.....and believe that ALL bloodlines of miniature horses can produce dwarves. I also feel that some individuals have more of a tendency to produce dwarves and should be eliminated from the gene pool, when this is discovered. Kaykays post hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Wel I must also say that there is some who believe (talking reseachers here) that it doesnt ALWAYS take one gene from each parent and that there are cases where one parent is responsible for the dwarfism. IN fact that was a study that started but ran out of funding.

They were interested in Sadie cause... her sire in his first foal crop which was the one Sadie was born in had SEVERAL dwarves that year- to mares who had never had them before the precentage of dwarves he threw that year was scary and this was a AMHA Res Nat. Halter champion and a cute little horse.

Sadly his owner is opting to still breed him to this day and denies the dwarves were out of her stallion - since they CANNOT be registered with Dwarf stamped on them there is no way to show that yes he was the sire. I am not talking about showing to the world I am talking about showing to an owner who is in deep denial. SHe bought the stallion before any of his foals hit the ground so neither seller no buyer knew and now she chooses to believe it isnt true.

 

[horsehug]

Just to add a little different perspective to this thread, I thought I'd post the opinion of Tony Greaves of Little America Minis. We have had so many new members to the forum since he first posted it and since I reposted it also with his permission.

As a preface, I'd like to say that in my opinion, Tony has more experience than almost any breeder I know of and has been a mentor to me, always willing to answer my questions honestly and share his VAST experience with me. I have called on his expertise and gotten to know him partly because I share his passion for the tiny ones and respect him and his breeding program. I was lucky enough to get to visit his beautiful farm 6 years ago, and it is SOOO obvious that, while his farm is his livelihood, it is also his passion and he loves his horses and his work with all his heart.

I also feel that IF it were ever discovered or let out that some of the true greats of our breed, and I am sure you can all think of several that you consider the true greats, had produced a dwarf (and there is that very real possibility/probablility that it has happened) ....... and with the effect we know these great ones have had on our breed.......... I wonder if so many would be so quick to say that they should never have been bred again. With the stigma that it is obvious to me is STILL attached to knowing a horse can produce a dwarf, it would not surprise me at all if it was once again hidden or denied more like in the past. And I think that is sad.

Here is what Tony said 4 years ago and told me I was free to share again.

Susan O.