Why LWO?

[Bunnylady]

If the ruling you are talking about is brought in (so far it keeps failing...it is a EU ruling, across the board they are trying for, I do nor know if Germany brought in a single country ruling I will try to find out) but IF it were to come in it would also prevent the breeding of Frame and the breeding of Merle (dogs) and this is why it has failed.Merle and LWO are similar in that they are harmless in h/Z and lethal (partially in dogs ...pups without eyes!!) in H/Z.

The EU Animal Welfare Bill is attempting to prevent the breeding of animals with what they euphemistically referred to as "defective" genes.

Which will not float, I am glad to say!!

Basically, under the Animal Welfare Bill passed last year it would be theoretically possible to take legal action against someone who knowingly breeds two LWO carriers together, whether or not the resultant foal was Lethal.

It is not yet an issue here as there are so few LWO carriers in Europe, but the problem is that you cannot take legal action against someone for being ignorant, when there is no legal precedent, if only you could we would not have the government we do, and maybe you would not either ( OH!

OH!

-Oh I am so sorry I could not resist that!!!)

So ignorance of the law is no excuse, but when there is no law, it is a very good one, it seems.

You would have to prove that the person knew they were doing something that could result in the suffering of an animal, and that the mating was not accidental...so the person that came on a Forum that shall not be named and told me, in all seriousness, that I obviously did not know anything about breeding Pintos as this was an acceptable risk, as fa as she was concerned, in order to get a "loud colored foal" (now who is showing their ignorance??) could be prosecuted under European Law as she showed quite clearly that she knew there was a risk, and she took it deliberately, but Joe- down- the - road, who's mare got in foal to his stallion and had a Lethal White foal, he could not be prosecuted as he was ignorant of the facts and the breeding was not intended.

So, however well intentioned the law, it could be evaded by not pattern testing the animals.

"Don't Ask, Don't Test?"

Okay, bad joke, I know.

The way I heard about this legislation was in an article in a rabbit magazine, written by a rabbit breeder in Germany. Small breeds of rabbits require the use of a Dwarf gene to achieve the compact animal in breed standards. It is dominant, but homozygous lethal. Suddenly, it became illegal to breed two show winners together! Rabbits with really long ears do sometimes step on their ears, this is considered "suffering" because they can do damage. English Lops have very long ears, so now, there is a legal limit on how long their ears can be!

Thirty years ago, Impressive was one hot ticket. He and his sons had full dance cards. I was amazed at how many Impressive-bred animals I ran into, not only halter, but performance QH's, too. Sadly, that popularity came at a cost. As long as HYPP has been known about, and as long as there has been a test for it, you'd think it would have become uncommon by now, wouldn't you? But I've come across a couple of sources that state that more than 1/3 of the QH's tested over the last decade have come up positive (and yes, I know, don't believe everything you read on the internet!)With my own two ears, I have heard people reassure others that, although a particular horse is N/H, it's okay, because it's not as bad as H/H! This kind of ignorance has meant that a test that could have helped weed out a bad gene has actually helped to keep it circulating in the gene pool. According to what I've read, HYPP may be slightly more common in QH's than it was a decade ago! Hopefully, that is about to change.

But isn't that the same kind of logic being used with LWO? Obviously, the N/H horse isn't really okay at all, because you never know when an episode may occur. The LWO+ horse doesn't suffer any ill effects from the gene, so is much more likely to live a long and productive life. If Buckeroo were LWO+ (just picking a name here, I have no clue what his status might be) can you imagine how many there might be just of his line (remember, some solid-colored horses have tested LWO+.) It boggles the mind! That's why I wonder, do we really need to keep hanging onto Frame?

As I said, I have no ax to grind here. For me, this is just a mental exercise. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes with my musings, that was never my intent. (Maybe I should keep away from the keyboard when the weather is this hot and humid, I seem to have a touch of what we call "summer brain fungus!")

 

[targetsmom]

Interesting that you picked Buckeroo for your example, who I am fairly sure is NOT LWO+. But Rowdy was LWO+, and think of all the miniature horses that he has contributed genes too - and often the LWO+ gene too. I for one, am certainly glad that we are "hanging onto" those frame genes! Think what the miniature breed would be without those Rowdy progeny! That was where Cross Country Call Me Awesome got his frame gene, by the way, so where our mare got hers.

 

[Songcatcher]

The horses in the pictures y'all have posted certainly make the point, they are beautiful! Of course, I try to make a point of not getting too caught up in the eye candy (a horse of any other color still won't smell like a rose!)

Some time ago, I heard that it is illegal in Germany to do any breeding that could result in the death or lifelong suffering of the offspring, as a result of its genetic makeup. I don't know how to verify this, perhaps some of our European members can say whether this is true. If so, then breed Frame to Frame in Germany, not only could you get a dead foal, you could also get a fine! A little extreme, IMO, I wonder how they deal with the dwarf issue?

I agree, when you consider the amount of time and money one spends when dealing with horses, the investment in LWO testing is miniscule. And, as I'm not breeding horses, (maybe someday, who knows?) this is all hypothetical to me. But I keep imagining having what seems like the perfect cross, only not doing it because they are both LWO+! Or having to pass on a real stunner, because it's LWO+, and the animal(s) that I'd breed it to is/are LWO+, as well.

While we're talking hypothetical situations, you do realize, that the more you breed animals carrying a certain gene, the more common that gene becomes in the population? Within a surprisingly few generations, it may become hard to find LWO- animals!

I have bolded certain parts of your post in order to easily address them. Your post appears to be in support of banning the breeding of LWO and is the classic example of someone who has no experience with a certain issue who feels compelled to dictate to others what they should or should not do. That is what leads to rulings like the referenced/proposed rule in Europe. When inexperienced people start trying to dictate the actions of others, freedom and beauty are lost. How was it George Orwell put it? "All pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others."

Your concern that it may become hard to find LWO negative animals also shows your lack of understanding of the facts. For that situation to be true, EVERYONE who breeds would have to use an LWO positive animal in EVERY cross and then still only 50% of the resulting foals would be LWO positive. NOT going to happen!

So far (here in America), we have the freedom to make choices. I dread the day when uninformed/unknowledgeable do-gooders manage to take that freedom away.

 

[Bunnylady]

Whew, I sure stepped on your toes, didn't I, Songcatcher? Did I say one word about banning anything? If anything, I think my tone rather critical of the idea of legislating what one may breed.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no experience breeding horses, but have over 20 years' experience breeding rabbits, I have certainly seen what can happen in a breeding population. Granted, it was a long time ago, but I did take courses in Genetics and Statistics in college, so I have an inkling about those subjects, too!

Take a deep breath, and read my posts again. I'm not trying to antagonise anybody, just looking for a little civil discourse!

BTW, I read "Animal Farm" in 7th grade.

 

[Songcatcher]

I have re read your posts and they still give me the impression that you would like to eliminate LWO horses from being bred and that you have no experience with LWO horses or breeding ANY horses.

 

[Bunnylady]

I have re read your posts and they still give me the impression that you would like to eliminate LWO horses from being bred and that you have no experience with LWO horses or breeding ANY horses.

And your point would be?

I believe I stated that I don't breed horses quite some time ago. I don't think I ever said anything about what a person should or shouldn't do, let alone be "allowed" to. Is a person not allowed to have an opinion or (God forbid!) discuss a subject, without having "hands-on" experience?

I asked a simple question. I continued to ask questions. My personal opinion is that "because I like it" is ample reason for anybody, as long as it does no harm. Clearly, most of the people who have posted on this thread feel that the potential harm of the LWO gene is quite manageable. With adequate knowledge, I agree, it is.

Well, it's late. It's time for all of us tired and grumpy people to hit the hay. Goodnight!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Breeding horses and breeding rabbits are two completely different ball games, no real comparisons.

Take Dwarfism, for example...NO comparison..see??

Whatever the law in Germany it is very unlikely to ever get passed in EU court, and even then it is up to the member states how they implement it.

We passed a law banning docking of dogs two years ago yet people are still getting it done, legally, (loopholes again) and still showing dogs that have been legally docked, it will dry up, but slowly.

Because a lot of collie and Oz and Sheltie lines are Merle, any bill that has Merle and by association Lethal White tagged on will fail, so if they wish the AWB to pass they will have to drop this bit off.

The Breed clubs, I have to say, are NOT helping.

If they simply refused, on ethical grounds, to register dogs or cats of LW X LW matings, the problem would be solved.

Same with horses and LWO and HYPPD and HERDA.

Just stop it at breed registration level.

Just STOP it!!!

 

[midnight star stables]

Breeding horses and breeding rabbits are two completely different ball games, no real comparisons.Take Dwarfism, for example...NO comparison..see??

Heh heh heh Where have you been hiding Ribbit? It's been ages

Hope you are well! How is RabbitsFizz? He must be pushing 2-? 27 this year? No that can't be right, is it? Anyways, it's good to hear from you

IMHO, breeders breed for the LWO+ overo horses because it is beautiful. A picture is worth 1000 words....

LTDs Lil Copycat .....And I'd take 100+ like her in a moment!

Cat is a classic Frame Sabino Overo. She is what many overo breeders aim for. She is a perfect example, as she is bred from Sample and comes from many of the early Sample, Van Lo, Miller AND LTD lines. She is colourful living art, in my eyes anyways, an I just think that I am so lucky to have been given the chance to own MY DREAM horse!

 

[Songcatcher]

Forgive me if I mis read the intent of your original post. Again, I have bolded the parts that jumped out at me as attempting to impose your wishes on someone else. I have answered with my thoughts in blue.

We all know how heartbreaking a Lethal White foal is. We keep preaching about how important it is to know the LWO status of any animal kept for breeding purposes. It is a bit of a headache to have to work around, so I can't help but wonder, why would anybody want a Frame Overo? It is not a headache for a knowledgeable breeder. People want them because they love the pattern.
I'm not trying to provoke an arguement, (Well, you did) I really don't understand. (Perhaps if you try listening without insinuating that someone else is doing something wrong, you would understand more.) There are so many other Paint patterns, why put up with the hassles associated with this one? (Once again, because it is unique and beautiful.) In so many cases, you really can't see whether it's Frame or something else producing the pattern. (True of many colors and patterns.) It seems to me, that people would be thrilled to hear that a horse was LWO-! (Some are and some aren't.) I mean, that's one less thing that you have to worry about.

(Once again, if you are a knowledgeable/responsible breeder, you don't have to worry about it. It is those who are unknowledgeable and irresponsible that have to worry.)

I've heard that some people in the QH world are getting so jittery about HYPP, they are beginning to shy away from any animal that tests positive for the gene. Do you think that is ever likely to happen with LWO? (Once again, two totally different situations with entirely different results.)

In another reply you said,

Whew, I sure stepped on your toes, didn't I, Songcatcher?

Stepping on someone's toes is an insinuation that they have done something wrong and have been exposed. Being a responsible breeder who has researched colors and patterns extensively and who has tested my horses, I find your remark to be yet another example of your attitude that you feel anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. My toes have not been stepped on in regards to this issue. Perhaps your's have.

Perhaps I have misread your intent. Perhaps you need to consider more carefully how your comments appear to others.

 

[WeeOkie]

This is my frame overo driving mare. I love frames and hope someday she will reproduce herself! But not this year with her first, but he is still a doll baby.

Rita

 

[midnight star stables]

This is my frame overo driving mare. I love frames and hope someday she will reproduce herself! But not this year with her first, but he is still a doll baby.
Rita

What a stunning driving horse! I wish you the best with her!

 

[Bunnylady]

Breeding horses and breeding rabbits are two completely different ball games, no real comparisons.Take Dwarfism, for example...NO comparison..see??

Whatever the law in Germany it is very unlikely to ever get passed in EU court, and even then it is up to the member states how they implement it.

We passed a law banning docking of dogs two years ago yet people are still getting it done, legally, (loopholes again) and still showing dogs that have been legally docked, it will dry up, but slowly.

Because a lot of collie and Oz and Sheltie lines are Merle, any bill that has Merle and by association Lethal White tagged on will fail, so if they wish the AWB to pass they will have to drop this bit off.

The Breed clubs, I have to say, are NOT helping.

If they simply refused, on ethical grounds, to register dogs or cats of LW X LW matings, the problem would be solved.

Same with horses and LWO and HYPPD and HERDA.

Just stop it at breed registration level.

Just STOP it!!!

Oh, I agree, the rabbit dwarf and the horse dwarf are apples and oranges. But Dwarf rabbits here have a sneaky little problem called the Max factor that is rather similar. It was named after Max, an imported rabbit that all affected rabbits seem to be related to. Dwarfs from this line have the very desirable, big, round heads so characteristic of the breed. Homozygous babies may appear normal at birth, or not, there are a couple of ways they may seem abnormal. However they start, they always wind up blind and crippled, and the breeder has to "do something" with them. The simplest solution, of course, is to avoid Max line animals entirely, but some people find that head worth the risk of a few deformed babies. I had heard of the Max factor, but was blindsided when it turned up in my nestboxes. I don't ever want to deal with a Max factor baby again, but the only way I can be sure to avoid it is to get out of Dwarfs entirely, the gene could be anywhere. The only test rabbit people can do is the Progeny Test (breed 'em and see what happens) and it is wa-a-ay far from a sure thing! I have seen traits disappear in a bloodline, only to resurface years and many generations later. I know firsthand the frustration of the Breeding You Dare Not Do! Most of what I'm trying to avoid isn't life and death, it's more along the lines of unshowable colors, but there are some chronic health problems associated with certain color genes in the buns (imagine an animal that gets an impaction colic at the drop of a hat!) Managable, but avoidable, with the right breeding.

I have seen so many posts from people caught unawares by LWO, some tragically. Sometimes the owner just didn't know it could happen, often, the horses gave no clear signs that the gene was there. My observation has been that there aren't a lot of only-Frame patterned animals out there, so I wondered, would they really be missed? Obviously, they sure would be by their owners! But might this gene be voluntarily sacrificed for the sake of future generations of horses and horse breeders? Clearly, for a lot of you, the answer is a resounding NO! I was making no insinuations, I just wanted your opinions.

I think government has no business in the breeding barn. Deliberate cruelty is a different matter, but I have no sympathy for "feel good" legislation. I think it all comes down to education, and personal responsibility. But there, too, we seem to differ. Some people seem to find a Lethal White foal an acceptable risk. To others, it's anathema! Some feel they can manage the risk, and leave it to others to educate themselves about the possible danger associated with this gene. Some feel that the responsible thing to do is to do your utmost to remove it from the gene pool, even by force of law (because people can't be counted on to do the "right" thing, apparently.

) Funny, isn't it, how passionate people often can't bear to hear any opinion but their own? I think it's great to have strong opinions, we all have things we are passionate about. One thing I'm passionate about is a person's right to their own opinion. If I think it was formed on the basis of "misinformation," I may try to enlighten you(

), but ultimately, I respect your right to hold an opinion, even if it's different than mine.

What's my opinion on the LWO issue? Doesn't matter, I don't breed horses!

 

[Songcatcher]

I think government has no business in the breeding barn. Deliberate cruelty is a different matter, but I have no sympathy for "feel good" legislation. I think it all comes down to education, and personal responsibility.

On this, we agree completely. Glad we got that clarified.

 

[shelia]

It seems the people here who want to eliminate the frame horse from the gene poole don't seem to understand the gentics behind it in spite of what people are saying here. I don't think I can expain it any better than some of you have. I suggest for anyone who is breeding horses to research this thoroughly and read about it over and over untill you understand it. Frame is certainly not isolated to miniatures. There are many more large horses that show the frame pattern, so there are even more who carry it. If you breed and want to breed responsibly you need to study the genetics as thoroughly as you can because there are other things that you would want to watch out for as well. How many of you have heard about the problems with the silver gene and uvitus (sp)? What about the grey gene and cancer? Should we also eliminate silver and grey from the gene pool? These problems can be avoided by people who know what they are doing when breeding. People who do not understand these things maybe should not be breeding horses.

It would be a sad day if everyone decided to eliminate the beautiful frame pattern. The horses with this pattern are just as healthy as any other horse. The people who don't want to test their horses are maybe being a bit irresposible. If you test your stallion and he is negative then you have nothing to worry about. It costs $25.00. If you don't have the money for that then certainly don't have the money to be breeding. No one is forcing anyone to use LWO positive horses in there breeding program. If you don't want it then ask that the horse be tested before you purchase it.

 

[midnight star stables]

I asked a simple question. I continued to ask questions. My personal opinion is that "because I like it" is ample reason for anybody, as long as it does no harm. Clearly, most of the people who have posted on this thread feel that the potential harm of the LWO gene is quite manageable. With adequate knowledge, I agree, it is.

Hi There!

Many things come and go in fads. Example, afew years ago, I seen a number of pinto colour (both LWO- and LWO+) miniature horses who where priced slightly higher, due to they were simply pinto in colour.

Another example, I seen smaller (under 32") miniature become very desired because they were the thing to have at the time(This is say 10 year or so ago) and now it seems that ASPC/AMHR and bigger B horses are on the rise. Some other people sit in the middle with very refined "Arabian" like miniatures.

Different people like different things, no problem there.

Some people love creme coloured horses(palominos, buckskins, perlinos, etc). And some like silver(silver black, silver bay, etc). Personally I like black. No harm there, right?

Some people like solids and some pinto. To each their own.

Frame Overo(LWO+) is just one type of pinto pattern. It is harmless on it's own and causes no problems what so ever. I'll help a little bit with it's problems in a minute.

I just wanted to help break down "pinto" for you.

There are 4 main pinto patterns, they are the following:

Tobiano: Most common of all. Most pintos carry it, and it is easy to breed for(50/50 chance of getting it when a parent is a "regular" carrier. There is a 100% chance of getting this colour if a parent has paw print markings and test homozygous)

Sabino: Is a roaning gene. It often combines with other colours. It gives a greying or roaning look to white markings. Think of a Clydsdale draft horse.

Spash: Rather rare. Big bold and sharp coloured markings on the back and neck. White legs and faces are common.

Tovero: Is a term used to say a horse is Tobiano AND ANY other pinto pattern, be it Sabino, Spash or most commonly LWO+ Overo.

And of course, LWO+ Overo: This is the special pattern. Like all the others, you still have to have one parent that carrys the gene to past it on to a foal. A SOLID colour horse CAN NOT be LWO+ however if it has a snip or a white foot etc, then it Could be a minimal overo and will then carry LWO+ gene. Not all horses with a star or snip will be LWO+ but they could and should be tested.

If you breed a LWO+ mare to a Tobaino stallion(not homozygous) you have 4 differnt out comes. 1) another LWO+ 2) a solid LWO- 3)a LWO- tobiano or 4)a tobaino who carrys LWO+ (Tovero) (Well I'm pretty sure, could be off on #4 or #3... but the idea is the same) Basically you only have 25% chance of getting a LWO+ foal. You have 0% chance of getting a dead LWO++ foal. This is so far Very safe.

If you breed a LWO+ mare to a LWO+ stallion, you still have 4 out comes again, however they are now differnt then above. 1) A live LWO+ foal 2) A live LWO+ foal 3) A live LWO- foal or 4) a dead LWO++ foal. This means if you breed two overos, you have a 50%chance of getting a live beautiful overo foal. You still have 25% chance of a solid LWO-. However you now risked 25% chance of having a LWO++ foal, which will die.

Crossing two LWO+ horses give you a higher chance of getting a live overo foal, but you have to risk the 25% chance that the foal could be LWO++ and die. Make sence?

Overo is safe and a beautiful colour. It IS HARD to get, and that is why it is prized. Dead LWO++ foals are not common, but they do happen. LWO+ is a great gene and cause no harm when used correctly. That's why there is a test.

It is not the same as HYPP or Dwarfism or anyother thing like that.

Some people love the colour and it causes no harm to the horse, so I see no problem with it.

I personally LOVE the overo look, and I always have. That's just me.

Hope this helps!

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

How many of you have heard about the problems with the silver gene and uvitus (sp)? What about the grey gene and cancer? Should we also eliminate silver and grey from the gene pool? These problems can be avoided by people who know what they are doing when breeding.

And another example between us appy breeders would be moon blindness which they have done research and found that Appaloosas with coat patterns indicating they are homozygous for LP are affected (your snowcaps, fewspots and non-spotted blanket patterns), so should we wipe out those patterns because a resulting foal may end up with night blindness, nope but with responsible breeding and careful pairing we can eliminate the risk just like with LWO+ horses

 

[midnight star stables]

Oh I just found a GREAT quote from a webiste, mustang site. Oh and see more about Frame Overo LWO+ Here

Quote from website:

The way to avoid this tragedy is simply to avoid breeding Frame to Frame. The hard part is identifying carriers of this gene. There are many color patterns that resemble Frame Overo (Many loud Sabinos look very much like Frames, for instance), and others that mask it. Frame is sometimes very minimally expressed, so that the horse does not appear to be a Frame at all, but only a "normal" horse with pretty socks or a nice wide blaze, etc. (This is the most likely explanation for the so-called "crop-pouts" that occur in some of the non-color breeds) Frame Overo is attractive and highly prized by horse owners. The challenge is breeding for it safely. Since horses can carry the Frame gene without it being expressed to a recognizable degree, it is a good idea to have all breeding stock tested for this gene.

Hope this helps All new LWO people and thoses breeding LWO+ horses!

 

[targetsmom]

Crossing two LWO+ horses give you a higher chance of getting a live overo foal, but you have to risk the 25% chance that the foal could be LWO++ and die. Make sence?

I would like to make a slight (but important) correction to this: I belive that crossing two LWO+ horses does NOT increase the chance of giving you a live frame overo foal - unless you eliminate the possible lethal white foal from your calculations.

LWO+ X LWO+: 50% chance of frame overo (LWO+), 25% chance of solid (LWO-) and 25% chance of lethal white

LWO+ X solid LWO-: 50% chance of frame overo (LWO+), 50% chance of solid (LWO-), 0% of lethal white.

I don't know about you, but even as a Pinto breeder, I would much rather have a solid color foal than a dead one.

But this is the cross we prefer:

LWO+ frame X LWO- Tobiano: 25% chance of just frame pattern (LWO+), 25% chance of frame & tobiano pattern - aka tovero (LWO+), 25% chance of tobiano pattern (LWO-), and 25% chance of solid (LWO-);

therefore 75% chance of pinto, 0 chance of lethal white. We do lower our chance of getting just the frame pattern though.

 

[Tapestry Minis]

I'd also like to add that a SOLID colored horse CAN test LWO+

It's very simple. Don't breed a LWO+ to a LWO+ and all is well. Just being a carrier does not cause any ill to the carrier. It's ONLY in it's HOMOZYGOUS form (One copy from each parent) is it fatal.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

On the question of a solid testing Frame??

No, a minimally marked, yes, quite possible, and wrongly identified as solid.

LWO X LWO does not give any more chance of a LWO foal, it is the fact that there are almost no, if any LWO only animals around that is confusing the issue, here.

Even breeding a loudly patterned (people, we are talking pattern here, not "colour"!!) to another does not in percentages, up the possibilities of a loudly patterned animal resulting.

There is NO excuse (it is not a reason) for breeding LWO to LWO, there is only the ignorance of people who continue to do it even after they are faced with the facts, merely because they have always done so.

If the registries were to refuse to register the offspring of LWO X LWO then at least the number of foals subjected to the risk would go down, and disapproval of the action would be registered.

This is NOT going to happen as HERDA and HYPPD are still rife in (mostly) AQHA horses and still thought to be OK by quite a few top show barns.....so what do you think of the chances of them being interested in a Lethal White Foal??

Basically, there is absolutely NO problem with LWO in h/Z form, it is when it is H/Z that there is a problem and if you are a responsible breeder thsi does not normally happen.

NO horse is "so good" that you have to breed it to another LWO+ animal.

NO horse.

The risk you take is not yours to take.

There is NO way to identify a Frame animal by sight but there is a very simple, very cheap test you can do.

To repeat myself...

There is NO point in looking at the horse, if you are breeding to a LWO+ horse you need to test your animal, and, were I to stand a LWO+ Stallion at stud I would require mare to be tested...seems only fair as she is the one who pays the price, ultimately.